Yes, you talk about grinding for items to drop, but you have completely missed that there is another avenue for items and that is crafting. Don't forget that crafters need a market and I see a cash shop as competition for their goods.
@Bajjer It was not the primary reason I quit, more a culmination of factors. Paying full box price expansions + subscription and then an additional $tore just did not sit right with me and its very existence negatively impacted my world immersion, Not just be the nature of itemization but how it effected the narrative and psyche of the player population. Just having the discussion or overhearing "have you seen the cash shop" or advertisements in my player experience ruined my ability to escape into a fantasy world.....
@Whocando Ah I see. Yeah, there was never any P2W stuff in there, but they sure did advertise it within the game.
I guess I don't really have any feelings of immersion in WoW anyway - haven't since classic - when I stopped paying attention to the lore or the world as it was slowly bastardised.
There are so many pop culture references in the game itself, that it really ceased to be its own world to the degree that the in-game ads for expansions were just like white noise to me.
I think you can incorporate a cash shop into the actual game world. If you had to visit a vendor to collect your costume and the NPCs were all like "ah, yes we have your order here. Such a lovely codpiece, suits you Sir!" I guess that would be quite immersive.
.....ummm no, speaking from 19 years of experience in various mmos, this is a false statement. If we are going to converse please try to be at least somewhat truthful. In the majority of occasions there always be elusive items where RNG does not favor you.
However if you take away the "grind" as you put it, then whats left? Everyone has everything and rarity will have no significant meaning.
Tack on to that a cash shop and then you have a situation where everyone has everything.....
Maybe you did not finish reading my post cause I also said.
And yes I realize there should be very rare items in MMORPGS not going for that I want everything now thing just going for the "oh look cool item in cash shop glad I can buy it cause I am already grinding out a bunch of other things in game."
For your statements to be true everything in game would have to in the cash shop. to delete rng from AoC. (from what you are saying)
Cash Shop does not equal deleting RNG from the entire game. Youl will still have grinds . Finish this statement Hatred The Cash Shop will create a situation where everyone has everything with no grind in game because.......
You have to keep in mind Steve is not going to put everything in the cash shop and there will still be very very rare items in game not in cashshop. So go ahead prove your statement.
Truth is the Cash Shop we are getting will only put a little tiny dent in RNG. You guys are like we don't want that. We would rather have FUN and do years worth of grinding gear it gives us sense of acheivement. (that is on top of all the years of grinding you have on the table) You guys are basically out with signs protesting WE WANT GEAR GRINDS WE WANT GEAR GRINDS!!! Well you are getting them like it or not so you will not be disappointed. Cash shop or no cash shop.
You are using blanket statements like. Taking the away the grind. Finish this statement Hatred Buying three cosmentics items a year will take the the grind away from the game because........
Or Buying everything that is in the cash shop will take the grind away from the GAME because.. (now remember not every item is going to be in the cash shop so...) I think it only takes the grind away from the items that are bought. So in my example it would be 3 items that you do not have to grind. Could you name one example of an mmorpg with a cash shop were every one buys everything and the therefore there is no grind in the game. That is three different criteria Everyone, Everything and No grind in the game. Not Everything and then some poeople and still have some grind in the game. It has to be Everyone buying Everthing with no grind in game, which MMORPG is that?
By the way gear grinding is a part of an MMORPG grind so even if you have everything there will still be pvp grind, skill grind, acheivement grind, quest grind,node grind and so on. So there is no taking away the grind.
This cash shop that takes the grind away or this game with no grind is not going to exist in AoC so....sorry even with your 19 years experience the Cash Shop will not take the grind away from the AoC as you put it. Just a little tiny bit and you are fighting that.
You are talking about ideals. Yeah it is a no brainer MMORPGS are suppose to have RNG and rare items. You can have those and have a cash shop.
Cash Shop does not make Stories or Lore disappear. It will IF Every Item that is in game is in the Cash Shop and IF Everyone buys Everything in the cashshop but that is not going to happen so...
This Everyone and Everything and Every Item with a game that has its grind taken away from it by the cashsop will never exist in AoC. Kind of makes your statements non-relevent. I don't see how any one could make that aurgument.
I guess it is pretty awful when I buy an item from the Cash Shop saving me lets say 3 years of grinding when I already have a 100 years of grinding. Really? 100 years is an exaggeration but you guys get the point. Three years is not exaggeration.
To answer your question there will be more left than you could possible handle after we get the cash shop.
I see nothing wrong with having Cosmetics Options in store as long as all it effects is appearance no stat values, with the following conditions.
Developer ends up spending all resources to just keep making cosmetic items and not develop actual game play. Example SWTOR which basically became a MMORPG barbie and ken dress up game.
Have only the cool looking stuff available only through the store, once again like SWTOR majority of cool stuff was through store and the stuff gotten trhough loot quests or crafting were mostly sub par.
Long time Epic items should look the best and it would be nice if the appearance got better as you progressed your epic gear.
Crafted items that require high skill should have a great look.
Looted items at low level should look sub par and progress in cosmetic quality as the loot level goes up.
I would like to add one point that all of the shop items should be shop specific.
So I would not even like it if they would sell dye's.
I don't think 15$ is a lot of money if you play a game for even 40 hours a month.
When I really like a game I like to support it.maybe they could link some kind of stretch goals to the in game store sales. Maybe they could make more content sooner that way? and you will see some results for your support. This is probably a slippery slope. because we all expect them to work as hard as they can even without any extra support. and it would probably be seen as another cash grab. I don't know? just a idea that came to mind.
By the way gear grinding is a part of an MMORPG grind so even if you have everything there will still be pvp grind, skill grind, acheivement grind, quest grind,node grind and so on. So there is no taking away the grind.
I agree grinding is part of what MMORPG is. The challenge is to make the grind so fun it is not looked at as spending many hours grinding a game but rather spending many hours enjoying the game. There are some forms of grinding no one would ever consider bad
I would like to add one point that all of the shop items should be shop specific.
So I would not even like it if they would sell dye's.
Making shop items specific to shop I think would be good, we wouldn't want people to take shortcuts in the game and be able to just buy items rather than earning them.
But yes also the quality of items should not exceed what is in game just be a fun sort of uniqueness. The best quality of items should always be the ones the are the hardest to achieve and earn through effort not purchasing with real cash.
Ultimately game companies have abusedcash shops in the past so a lot of people are wary and understandably so. Especially if a cash shop is added to a game that let's say already has a subscription cost or a hefty one time buy in cost. The good thing is players, families of players and governments are finally starting to take action and voicing concerns about this.
I just sincerely hope that if a cash shop is brought into the game, that it is done with careful consideration that it should in no way take away from the game experience that it is a very small foot print in the game. It should never be better than the best items that are received through effort or be able to bought over putting effort into the game. The most important give no stats or advantage in a game. Lastly especially considering the game will be based on subscription, cost of items should be small and should never come close to or exceed the cost of the subscription.
Now cool things like Miniatures, Mugs, Graphic Encyclopedia, Novels, Game Art, ,expansion packs would be nice and are things I feel would be the best and would not take away from the game experience but add to it.
Expansion Packs I would be excited for would be for example Voice Overs for quests that are not already in game. Voice Overs are nice but can get very expensive. I would not mind paying extra for expansion packs that add immersion into the game. Honestly lot of companies go for expensive voice actors for this for marketing reasons, Having well known voice actors is not necessary we could have unknowns that have good voices. Hell some of them could be fans or players. ( Expansion for way down the road not to interfere with current development. )
P2P with cosmetic shop is good compromise. Let me explain why.
1. F2P games with P2W cash shop allow for large (but mostly unhappy) player population. Game is free and many players can play, but cash shop with P2W items ruins the game play in large degree.
2. P2P games with no cash shop at all but large subscription fee would allow for awesome and balanced game play, but would end up in much smaller population because many players would not be able to afford large subscription fee, which in end would again not be good for servers health.
3. P2P games with cosmetic cash shop, and smaller subscription fee are good compromise because they still allow large enough player populations, and cash shop doesn't have P2W items that would ruin the game play.
I am personally very happy that Ashes will be the third option I listed.
Option 3 is good if, and only if, the cosmetics are obtainable by those not participating in the cash shop AND they are obtainable through reasonable grind. If both of those variables are not met then P2P is unacceptable. I'm not going to pay $15/mo to only get 90% of the content, even if that additional content is cosmetic stuff that I would only buy if I had an excess of in-game funds anyway.
P2P with cosmetic shop is good compromise. Let me explain why.
1. F2P games with P2W cash shop allow for large (but mostly unhappy) player population. Game is free and many players can play, but cash shop with P2W items ruins the game play in large degree.
2. P2P games with no cash shop at all but large subscription fee would allow for awesome and balanced game play, but would end up in much smaller population because many players would not be able to afford large subscription fee, which in end would again not be good for servers health.
3. P2P games with cosmetic cash shop, and smaller subscription fee are good compromise because they still allow large enough player populations, and cash shop doesn't have P2W items that would ruin the game play.
I am personally very happy that Ashes will be the third option I listed.
Option 3 is good if, and only if, the cosmetics are obtainable by those not participating in the cash shop AND they are obtainable through reasonable grind. If both of those variables are not met then P2P is unacceptable. I'm not going to pay $15/mo to only get 90% of the content, even if that additional content is cosmetic stuff that I would only buy if I had an excess of in-game funds anyway.
Some good points.
My preference would be no cash shop for in game stuff.
Over cash shop I would prefer Pay for game + Subscription. Pay for expansion as they come out to help support funding of new content frequently.
I'd would much prefer not cash shop even for cosmetics if possible. Cash shops are a slippery slope not just for the Developers but also for the players.
Paying for convenience in a game is what started the gaming industry going down the bad road in the first place. Even if it is just for cosmetics.
Ultimately having a cash shop for things like Server transfer physical RL items would be cool.
I've been happy with most things announced but one thing that raised an alarm was when mounts in cash shop was announced.
If the looks of what is available for cosmetics is better than what we can get in game it's definitely a no go in my books. If in game cosmetics makes a ton of money it could shift focus on game development. I want game development to be geared towards the game not things we can buy in a shop.
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I know in previous post I said it would be fine with me but it depends on how they do it. Right now I am more in the lines of I still would not like it but could possibly tolerate it if it was done right and did not go overboard.
if it starts going down the dark road it would probably be enough to make me leave before I get too invested.
Ultimately we will have to wait and see what happens.
@Affy Cosmetics obtainilable in-game will be the same quality of the cash shop. You won't be able to obtain cash shop items through in-game means.
Paying for sub gives you access to the game and all expansions / updates they add in the future. However they are under no obligation to keep pumping out cosmetic content. If they weren't in the cash shop they wouldn't exist at all. You can't say you're missing out on content if the content would never have been made without the cash store.
They put this extra work into creating cosmetics because it allows them to further fund the game and company. I'm not sure about you but that seems like a good "optional" way to support Intrepids vision that doesn't reduce the integrity of the game.
If you really want something in the cash shop and can't afford it you can always use the referral system to pay for it.
There's is nothing you can say nor do to justify Microtranactions - period. And this sh!t needs to end
Even if its " Cosmetics " ... all Cash Shops will end in the same way. Its literally an MMOs " Last Resort " if all-else fails
Name a few? Why should they not have existed? Cosmetic cash shops are a good way to generate revenue without damaging the games integrity.
I do dislike when games make anything outside of the cash shop look like shit as a cash grab, but Stevens said multiple times that outfits in-game will look just as good as the cash shop. Looking at what we've seen so far I don't think he was lying.
Well Intrepid is not a big studio. They did raise 3 million but from what I hear MMOs cost upwards of 10 million could go to 20 million easy. So really they should have a cash shop in order to compete with huge companies. I am not buying into this Cash Shop Doomsday Prophecy in some MMORPGs they go unnoticed. I think the devs are smart enough to make it non-damaging to the game.
As far as microtransactions go like paying one or two dollars for some consumable, well that is not the way the Cash Shop was described more like paying some money for recolours, and mount skins. Which could cost like 15 to 35 dollars. Those type of cash shops do not have a great impact on the game.
Cosmetic cash shops are a good way to generate revenue without damaging the games integrity.
Seen some really poor choices of words in this thread. Yet another example....
Micro transactions by design are manipulative, playing on the human psyche in a multitude of ways..... thus damaging the game's integrity. To what degree is arguable, however it is there none the less, regardless of how insignificant it might be (perspective and all that).
"Looking at what we've seen so far I don't think he was lying. "
Yet another example. I bet there is a used car salesman convention somewhere showing your photo as an example of their target demographic.
Based on what exactly? Are there some screen caps of the Cash Shop somewhere? Are we seeing the oodles of cosmetics obtainable ingame "on par" with the cash shop? There a crystal ball for sale at Wally World that shows the financial success/failure of Ashes a couple of years after release? The KS packages might indicate otherwise... or the summer crowd funding... or the pax packages... or the upgrades to packages. All we have been shown so far are over priced pixels. Oh right we haven't even seen what those pixels look like yet, just the price tag. Actions... meet words.
Like most, I am willing to hang around and see how it plays out, voicing an opinion on bad practices while I wait and maybe stirring the pot a bit...
Cosmetic cash shops are a good way to generate revenue without damaging the games integrity.
Seen some really poor choices of words in this thread. Yet another example....
Micro transactions by design are manipulative, playing on the human psyche in a multitude of ways..... thus damaging the game's integrity. To what degree is arguable, however it it there none the less, regardless of how insignificant it might be.
Not all Cash shops are manipulative, not all digital purchases are manipulative. Ashes is marketed to mature players, you and everyone else can make their own decision on wether or not to support the game further buy purchasing cosmetics and reskins. It doesn't diminish your gameplay if you don't but it does support IS if you do.
I'm not talking about micro transactions in general, just cosmetic cash shops. Micro transactions can be manipulative but I've done my research and if anyone can do it right it's Intrepid studios.
Ashes is expected to cost $30m during development. It's funded through "private investing" later clarified to be personally funded by Steven himself. His net worth is apparently around $38m so I expect he's outsourcing for a portion of the funding, hence the backing periods.
Steven has made promises to us, he knows if he doesn't deliver the game will fail. Even if you don't believe the many many promises he's made about P2W and micro transactions it's not hard to figure out if we can trust him through pure logic. No one would risk his life savings on an elaborate prank.
I've been seeing a lot of this lately,
Micro transactions are evil because of these reasons.
"Looking at what we've seen so far I don't think he was lying. "
Based on what exactly? Are there some screen caps of the Cash Shop somewhere? Are we seeing the oodles of cosmetics obtainable ingame "on par" with the cash shop? There a crystal ball for sale at Wally World that shows the financial success/failure of Ashes a couple of years after release? The KS packages might indicate otherwise... or the summer crowd funding... or the pax packages... or the upgrades to packages. All we have been shown so far are over priced pixels. Actions... meet words.
Like most, I am willing to hang around and see how it plays out, voicing an opinion on bad practices while I wait.
What? I was saying the in-game assets already look amazing therefore they aren't making things look shit to overly incentivize the cash shop.
An example of a game that has done this is BDO. It's already very easy to tell that Intrepid isn't going down the same road.
Again, Steven has made promises about equality in cosmetics. You have every reason to believe him and no reason not to.
Also, yes all the cosmetics so far have been overpriced but only because they're rewards for funding the game. They're asking for donations and giving you the little they can afford to give back to you.
Twisting words and sentences to make every detail look guilty.
Just because certain people play games to look good and costumes are available in the cash shop it does not mean that the cash shop is manipulative. How a character looks does not affect PvE, PvP or politic performance. Just because some people are butthurt over the fact they don't get a walk-in wardrobe full of costumes for free and have to pay a few bucks for a costume they actually like and would use, it does not mean that a cosmetic only cash shop is a bad thing.
We can go on again with peoples conspiracy theories how a cosmetic only cash shop eventually turns p2w, but I will go on again how Intrepid Studios has not given us a reason not to trust their word. Just thinking about that they might betray us is disrespectful in many ways, as Intrepid Studios have done their best so far and kept their word.
We can have a game with no cash shop whatsoever, but that will lead to P2W guaranteed and way sooner than the potential "cash shop betrayal" would. Without a cash shop, we will either only get content updates every 2 years or in order to increase revenue, we might see a "premium subscription" with additional bonuses (p2w) on top of the monthly subscription. If you think about such possibilities, what do you believe is better? A harmless cosmetic only cash shop or to force Intrepid Studios to increase their revenue by other means which might lead to P2W?
We can have a game with no cash shop whatsoever, but that will lead to P2W guaranteed and way sooner than the potential "cash shop betrayal" would. Without a cash shop, we will either only get content updates every 2 years or in order to increase revenue, we might see a "premium subscription" with additional bonuses (p2w) on top of the monthly subscription. If you think about such possibilities, what do you believe is better? A harmless cosmetic only cash shop or to force Intrepid Studios to increase their revenue by other means which might lead to P2W?
This part makes no sense sorry. The only way to get PTW is through cash shops without cash shops there can be no PTW. Just wanted to correct you on that. PTW is done through cash shops. Now I am not saying that IS will make the game PTW, in fact I don't think they will.
Simple matter for me anyways is if I pay either a significant amount out right for a game or pay a monthly subscription, I feel there should be no cash shops in these. Cash shops were introduced, primarily, into FTP games to generate money in because no money was being charged for the game it self, money has to be made somewhere.
But over the years cash shops were being abused and then started popping up even with subscriptions or significant amounts were being paid for a game out right.
Personally if I either pay for a significant amount for a game or pay a subscription, I feel there should be no cash shops period. This is what I am paying a subscription for to stay away from cash shops.
Instead of Cash shops I would much rather pay for each expansion out right.
Paying a set amount for the initial game, then paying a monthly subscription should be enough money where cash shops are not necessary.
Then when an expansion comes out I would rather pay for each subsequent expansion than having a cash shop exist.
No conspiracy theory. I for one am tired of cash shops which is the whole reason I want game companies to go back to sub base systems. And buying each expansion for a set price. People are leary of cash shops, and for good reason, many companies will say it wont go overboard and still do at some . It's just a bad tract record with existing companies that utilize cash shops. So yes the tendency is not to trust them.
Do I think Intrepid would go PTW with the cash shop, no I do not, it would be bad for business to state they won't and end up doing it. But also I get some sense of ingerity with them so I lean to their favor on the PTW thing.
Still If I am paying a sub I also think IS should not have a cash shop for any reason, other than selling physical merchandise and future expansions.
Would it be a deal breaker if they do it for cosmetics and keep to their word that it will not exceed but be similar to cosmetics existing in the game and be unique, no but I am still strongly against it. If it at some point it goes against its original intent it could deff lead to a deal breaker for me.
I think in a day and age where players are leary of cash shops, if they produce a very functional and good game, I think they would draw more people in without a cash shop. It would generate more trust and good will from players that are simply tired of it.
Now this is from someone who is totally in love of everything this game is promised to offer, with the one exception. I want this game to succeed as well as IS and hope they produce other games in the future as well.
Pay for:
Base Game, Subscription, Expansions = Ideal, Fair and generates trust.
Base Game , Subscription, Cash Shop = Not a deal breaker, if it is done right but still strongly apposed.
Base Game, Subscription, Expansion, Cash Shop = Definite Deal Breaker
Well @Dorje at least two of the two things you are fine paying for are not planned to happen. There will be no box cost or cost for future "dlc". Pay your sub, that supports the game. If you think that those pink bunny ears are a must have from the cosmetic cash shop, put em in your cart. Intrepid has absolutely no obligation to change their business strategy from what they have envisioned. All evidence so far points to them not having changed a single thing from what they have stated is coming. Not the QTE, the corruption system, flying, or the cash shop have seen a post from Steven saying "After looking at the righteous fury of posts to the forums and Discord, we have decided to go another way." The only way they get in trouble is if they go back on what they have promised from the beginning or try to word smith themselves an out, thinking they are fooling the players. We have seen none of this after they learned their lesson with the "Summer Backing" fiasco of listening to a small minority that were posting over how the Kickstarter was unfair to them. How can I call them a minority? We saw the numbers generated in real time once the Summer Backing kicked off. Once they fixed the double dipping numbers from erroneous counting of KS upgrades, it truly was a whimper more than a bang. If they come out with something akin to random loot boxes, or other P2W mechanics, I will be among the first to join the rabble picking up their pitchforks, but until that time, all the theorycrafting and wishlisting over these hot button issues just gives us something to argue over till they give us something to provide actual feedback about.
Just like some current administration officials are finding out, once you type it on the internet it lasts forever. If you notice, actual quotes of information dried up mid-summer just before PAX, once they realized anything they mentioned even in passing was taken as gospel by the base. All we get now is carefully screened info that has been vetted carefully (a good thing), and selected softballs answered during livestreams. They haven't broken a promise yet, but then again, they haven't provided us with anything really yet.
Well @Dorje at least two of the two things you are fine paying for are not planned to happen. There will be no box cost or cost for future "dlc". Pay your sub, that supports the game. If you think that those pink bunny ears are a must have from the cosmetic cash shop, put em in your cart. Intrepid has absolutely no obligation to change their business strategy from what they have envisioned. All evidence so far points to them not having changed a single thing from what they have stated is coming. Not the QTE, the corruption system, flying, or the cash shop have seen a post from Steven saying "After looking at the righteous fury of posts to the forums and Discord, we have decided to go another way." The only way they get in trouble is if they go back on what they have promised from the beginning or try to word smith themselves an out, thinking they are fooling the players. We have seen none of this after they learned their lesson with the "Summer Backing" fiasco of listening to a small minority that were posting over how the Kickstarter was unfair to them. How can I call them a minority? We saw the numbers generated in real time once the Summer Backing kicked off. Once they fixed the double dipping numbers from erroneous counting of KS upgrades, it truly was a whimper more than a bang. If they come out with something akin to random loot boxes, or other P2W mechanics, I will be among the first to join the rabble picking up their pitchforks, but until that time, all the theorycrafting and wishlisting over these hot button issues just gives us something to argue over till they give us something to provide actual feedback about.
Just like some current administration officials are finding out, once you type it on the internet it lasts forever. If you notice, actual quotes of information dried up mid-summer just before PAX, once they realized anything they mentioned even in passing was taken as gospel by the base. All we get now is carefully screened info that has been vetted carefully (a good thing), and selected softballs answered during livestreams. They haven't broken a promise yet, but then again, they haven't provided us with anything really yet.
Like I said I do not think that they will go PTW or go underhanded with the Cash Shop.
Nor do I think they are obligated to do anything it is after all their game and it's a game I fully believe in.
I am merely stating my preference that with a subscription based game I do not like the idea of a Cash Shop for what ever reason.
If for some reason my wish came true and they decided not to have a cash shop, I would gladly go with what I would rather have in place of a cash shop. Paid expansions at time of release or pre-purchase But that is just my preference
Call me crazy but I don't like the idea of a Cash Shop in a subscription game.
We can have a game with no cash shop whatsoever, but that will lead to P2W guaranteed and way sooner than the potential "cash shop betrayal" would. Without a cash shop, we will either only get content updates every 2 years or in order to increase revenue, we might see a "premium subscription" with additional bonuses (p2w) on top of the monthly subscription. If you think about such possibilities, what do you believe is better? A harmless cosmetic only cash shop or to force Intrepid Studios to increase their revenue by other means which might lead to P2W?
-snip-
Sorry to correct you, but you are wrong.
P2W can come in many different forms, not just through a cash shop.
P2W can come through direct GM Services that can be purchased on the website, eg. GM Enchants etc. P2W can come in form of an additional premium subscription that offers additional benefits which may or may not impact progress, convenience and general gameplay. Eg. Premium members can enter a daily dungeon 3 times compared to just 1 for normal subscribers, premium members get more inventory and storage slots or higher enchantment rates etc.
You seem to be tunnel visioned in a way in which everything that resembles a cash shop, even if they only sold megaphones for global chat in it, your instincts automatically trigger "Cash shop! P2W! P2W!!! Alarm! Alarm! Cash shop!!".
Yet another example. I bet there is a used car salesman convention somewhere showing your photo as an example of their target demographic.
I Said: "Ashes is marketed to mature players, you and everyone else can make their own decision on wether or not to support the game further buy purchasing cosmetics and reskins."
I don't know why you edited your post instead of creating a new one. It makes it very hard to know what you're talking about.
No I've just done my research, you must not have done yours if you if you've come to the conclusion Ashes isn't heavily marketed to adults. The average age of a MMORPG player is 26, only 25% are teenagers. Steven has said a few times that they're attempting to recreate the feel of older MMOs, this is obviously going to appeal to nostalgic players.
I Don't believe you would look through all the steams and think to yourself, this game has been marketed to children. Maybe we misunderstood each other.
We can have a game with no cash shop whatsoever, but that will lead to P2W guaranteed and way sooner than the potential "cash shop betrayal" would. Without a cash shop, we will either only get content updates every 2 years or in order to increase revenue, we might see a "premium subscription" with additional bonuses (p2w) on top of the monthly subscription. If you think about such possibilities, what do you believe is better? A harmless cosmetic only cash shop or to force Intrepid Studios to increase their revenue by other means which might lead to P2W?
-snip-
Sorry to correct you, but you are wrong.
P2W can come in many different forms, not just through a cash shop.
P2W can come through direct GM Services that can be purchased on the website, eg. GM Enchants etc. P2W can come in form of an additional premium subscription that offers additional benefits which may or may not impact progress, convenience and general gameplay. Eg. Premium members can enter a daily dungeon 3 times compared to just 1 for normal subscribers, premium members get more inventory and storage slots or higher enchantment rates etc.
You seem to be tunnel visioned in a way in which everything that resembles a cash shop, even if they only sold megaphones for global chat in it, your instincts automatically trigger "Cash shop! P2W! P2W!!! Alarm! Alarm! Cash shop!!".
Sir if you read what I said in this thread, I in fact stated that I do not think IS would use PTW.
I merely state that I do not think Cash Shops belong in a game that is based on subscription.
Well most top MMORPGS have a cash Shop and they are doing pretty well.
For those people that really dislike cash shops which MMO are you playing that does not have a cash shop? And how much better is it campared to other MMOs that do have cash shops?
I do not think reality(actual successful MMOs) jives with some of the things that been typed. WoW, Guild of Wars, Elder Scrolls online all have cash shops and are not terrible.. Has any one actually have any proof of microtransactions (small fee for some item that you most likely buy over and over again) kind of like all the fees that credit card companies have. I mean that is the type of posts that I am reading. I think you guys are talking about other games not Ashes of Creations.
Comments
Paying full box price expansions + subscription and then an additional $tore just did not sit right with me and its very existence negatively impacted my world immersion, Not just be the nature of itemization but how it effected the narrative and psyche of the player population. Just having the discussion or overhearing "have you seen the cash shop" or advertisements in my player experience ruined my ability to escape into a fantasy world.....
Basically a 4th wall attribute.
I guess I don't really have any feelings of immersion in WoW anyway - haven't since classic - when I stopped paying attention to the lore or the world as it was slowly bastardised.
There are so many pop culture references in the game itself, that it really ceased to be its own world to the degree that the in-game ads for expansions were just like white noise to me.
I think you can incorporate a cash shop into the actual game world. If you had to visit a vendor to collect your costume and the NPCs were all like "ah, yes we have your order here. Such a lovely codpiece, suits you Sir!" I guess that would be quite immersive.
For your statements to be true everything in game would have to in the cash shop.
to delete rng from AoC. (from what you are saying)
Cash Shop does not equal deleting RNG from the entire game. Youl will still have grinds . Finish this statement Hatred The Cash Shop will create a situation where everyone has everything with no grind in game because.......
You have to keep in mind Steve is not going to put everything in the cash shop and there will still be very very rare items in game not in cashshop. So go ahead prove your statement.
Truth is the Cash Shop we are getting will only put a little tiny dent in RNG. You guys are like we don't want that. We would rather have FUN and do years worth of grinding gear it gives us sense of acheivement. (that is on top of all the years of grinding you have on the table) You guys are basically out with signs protesting WE WANT GEAR GRINDS WE WANT GEAR GRINDS!!! Well you are getting them like it or not so you will not be disappointed. Cash shop or no cash shop.
You are using blanket statements like. Taking the away the grind. Finish this statement Hatred Buying three cosmentics items a year will take the the grind away from the game because........
Or Buying everything that is in the cash shop will take the grind away from the GAME
because.. (now remember not every item is going to be in the cash shop so...)
I think it only takes the grind away from the items that are bought. So in my example it would be 3 items that you do not have to grind. Could you name one example of an mmorpg with a cash shop were every one buys everything and the therefore there is no grind in the game. That is three different criteria Everyone, Everything and No grind in the game. Not Everything and then some poeople and still have some grind in the game.
It has to be Everyone buying Everthing with no grind in game, which MMORPG is that?
By the way gear grinding is a part of an MMORPG grind so even if you have everything there will still be pvp grind, skill grind, acheivement grind, quest grind,node grind and so on. So there is no taking away the grind.
This cash shop that takes the grind away or this game with no grind is not going to exist in AoC so....sorry even with your 19 years experience the Cash Shop will not take the grind away from the AoC as you put it. Just a little tiny bit and you are fighting that.
You are talking about ideals. Yeah it is a no brainer MMORPGS are suppose to have RNG and rare items. You can have those and have a cash shop.
Cash Shop does not make Stories or Lore disappear. It will IF Every Item that is in game is in the Cash Shop and IF Everyone buys Everything in the cashshop but that is not going to happen so...
This Everyone and Everything and Every Item with a game that has its grind taken away from it by the cashsop will never exist in AoC. Kind of makes your statements non-relevent.
I don't see how any one could make that aurgument.
I guess it is pretty awful when I buy an item from the Cash Shop saving me lets say 3 years of grinding when I already have a 100 years of grinding. Really? 100 years is an exaggeration but you guys get the point. Three years is not exaggeration.
To answer your question there will be more left than you could possible handle after we get the cash shop.
I don't think 15$ is a lot of money if you play a game for even 40 hours a month.
Making shop items specific to shop I think would be good, we wouldn't want people to take shortcuts in the game and be able to just buy items rather than earning them.
But yes also the quality of items should not exceed what is in game just be a fun sort of uniqueness. The best quality of items should always be the ones the are the hardest to achieve and earn through effort not purchasing with real cash.
Ultimately game companies have abused cash shops in the past so a lot of people are wary and understandably so. Especially if a cash shop is added to a game that let's say already has a subscription cost or a hefty one time buy in cost. The good thing is players, families of players and governments are finally starting to take action and voicing concerns about this.
I just sincerely hope that if a cash shop is brought into the game, that it is done with careful consideration that it should in no way take away from the game experience that it is a very small foot print in the game. It should never be better than the best items that are received through effort or be able to bought over putting effort into the game. The most important give no stats or advantage in a game. Lastly especially considering the game will be based on subscription, cost of items should be small and should never come close to or exceed the cost of the subscription.
Now cool things like Miniatures, Mugs, Graphic Encyclopedia, Novels, Game Art, ,expansion packs would be nice and are things I feel would be the best and would not take away from the game experience but add to it.
Expansion Packs I would be excited for would be for example Voice Overs for quests that are not already in game. Voice Overs are nice but can get very expensive. I would not mind paying extra for expansion packs that add immersion into the game. Honestly lot of companies go for expensive voice actors for this for marketing reasons, Having well known voice actors is not necessary we could have unknowns that have good voices. Hell some of them could be fans or players. ( Expansion for way down the road not to interfere with current development. )
My preference would be no cash shop for in game stuff.
Over cash shop I would prefer Pay for game + Subscription. Pay for expansion as they come out to help support funding of new content frequently.
I'd would much prefer not cash shop even for cosmetics if possible. Cash shops are a slippery slope not just for the Developers but also for the players.
Paying for convenience in a game is what started the gaming industry going down the bad road in the first place. Even if it is just for cosmetics.
Ultimately having a cash shop for things like Server transfer physical RL items would be cool.
I've been happy with most things announced but one thing that raised an alarm was when mounts in cash shop was announced.
If the looks of what is available for cosmetics is better than what we can get in game it's definitely a no go in my books. If in game cosmetics makes a ton of money it could shift focus on game development. I want game development to be geared towards the game not things we can buy in a shop.
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I know in previous post I said it would be fine with me but it depends on how they do it. Right now I am more in the lines of I still would not like it but could possibly tolerate it if it was done right and did not go overboard.
if it starts going down the dark road it would probably be enough to make me leave before I get too invested.
Ultimately we will have to wait and see what happens.
Paying for sub gives you access to the game and all expansions / updates they add in the future. However they are under no obligation to keep pumping out cosmetic content. If they weren't in the cash shop they wouldn't exist at all. You can't say you're missing out on content if the content would never have been made without the cash store.
They put this extra work into creating cosmetics because it allows them to further fund the game and company. I'm not sure about you but that seems like a good "optional" way to support Intrepids vision that doesn't reduce the integrity of the game.
If you really want something in the cash shop and can't afford it you can always use the referral system to pay for it.
Even if its " Cosmetics " ... all Cash Shops will end in the same way. Its literally an MMOs " Last Resort " if all-else fails
The way I see it is they're just rewards for helping to support the game further. Just like the Kickstarter / Summer / PAX cosmetics.
In short:
I do dislike when games make anything outside of the cash shop look like shit as a cash grab, but Stevens said multiple times that outfits in-game will look just as good as the cash shop. Looking at what we've seen so far I don't think he was lying.
As far as microtransactions go like paying one or two dollars for some consumable, well that is not the way the Cash Shop was described more like paying some money for recolours, and mount skins. Which could cost like 15 to 35 dollars. Those type of cash shops do not have a great impact on the game.
Micro transactions by design are manipulative, playing on the human psyche in a multitude of ways..... thus damaging the game's integrity. To what degree is arguable, however it is there none the less, regardless of how insignificant it might be (perspective and all that).
"Looking at what we've seen so far I don't think he was lying. "
Yet another example. I bet there is a used car salesman convention somewhere showing your photo as an example of their target demographic.
Based on what exactly? Are there some screen caps of the Cash Shop somewhere? Are we seeing the oodles of cosmetics obtainable ingame "on par" with the cash shop? There a crystal ball for sale at Wally World that shows the financial success/failure of Ashes a couple of years after release? The KS packages might indicate otherwise... or the summer crowd funding... or the pax packages... or the upgrades to packages. All we have been shown so far are over priced pixels. Oh right we haven't even seen what those pixels look like yet, just the price tag. Actions... meet words.
Like most, I am willing to hang around and see how it plays out, voicing an opinion on bad practices while I wait and maybe stirring the pot a bit...
I'm not talking about micro transactions in general, just cosmetic cash shops. Micro transactions can be manipulative but I've done my research and if anyone can do it right it's Intrepid studios.
Ashes is expected to cost $30m during development. It's funded through "private investing" later clarified to be personally funded by Steven himself. His net worth is apparently around $38m so I expect he's outsourcing for a portion of the funding, hence the backing periods.
Steven has made promises to us, he knows if he doesn't deliver the game will fail. Even if you don't believe the many many promises he's made about P2W and micro transactions it's not hard to figure out if we can trust him through pure logic. No one would risk his life savings on an elaborate prank.
I've been seeing a lot of this lately,
Micro transactions are evil because of these reasons.
Yes, But Intrepid promised not to do any of that?
Well they're evil anyway.
What? I was saying the in-game assets already look amazing therefore they aren't making things look shit to overly incentivize the cash shop.
An example of a game that has done this is BDO. It's already very easy to tell that Intrepid isn't going down the same road.
Again, Steven has made promises about equality in cosmetics. You have every reason to believe him and no reason not to.
Also, yes all the cosmetics so far have been overpriced but only because they're rewards for funding the game. They're asking for donations and giving you the little they can afford to give back to you.
Twisting words and sentences to make every detail look guilty.
Just because certain people play games to look good and costumes are available in the cash shop it does not mean that the cash shop is manipulative. How a character looks does not affect PvE, PvP or politic performance. Just because some people are butthurt over the fact they don't get a walk-in wardrobe full of costumes for free and have to pay a few bucks for a costume they actually like and would use, it does not mean that a cosmetic only cash shop is a bad thing.
We can go on again with peoples conspiracy theories how a cosmetic only cash shop eventually turns p2w, but I will go on again how Intrepid Studios has not given us a reason not to trust their word. Just thinking about that they might betray us is disrespectful in many ways, as Intrepid Studios have done their best so far and kept their word.
We can have a game with no cash shop whatsoever, but that will lead to P2W guaranteed and way sooner than the potential "cash shop betrayal" would. Without a cash shop, we will either only get content updates every 2 years or in order to increase revenue, we might see a "premium subscription" with additional bonuses (p2w) on top of the monthly subscription.
If you think about such possibilities, what do you believe is better? A harmless cosmetic only cash shop or to force Intrepid Studios to increase their revenue by other means which might lead to P2W?
Simple matter for me anyways is if I pay either a significant amount out right for a game or pay a monthly subscription, I feel there should be no cash shops in these. Cash shops were introduced, primarily, into FTP games to generate money in because no money was being charged for the game it self, money has to be made somewhere.
But over the years cash shops were being abused and then started popping up even with subscriptions or significant amounts were being paid for a game out right.
Personally if I either pay for a significant amount for a game or pay a subscription, I feel there should be no cash shops period. This is what I am paying a subscription for to stay away from cash shops.
Instead of Cash shops I would much rather pay for each expansion out right.
Paying a set amount for the initial game, then paying a monthly subscription should be enough money where cash shops are not necessary.
Then when an expansion comes out I would rather pay for each subsequent expansion than having a cash shop exist.
No conspiracy theory. I for one am tired of cash shops which is the whole reason I want game companies to go back to sub base systems. And buying each expansion for a set price. People are leary of cash shops, and for good reason, many companies will say it wont go overboard and still do at some . It's just a bad tract record with existing companies that utilize cash shops. So yes the tendency is not to trust them.
Do I think Intrepid would go PTW with the cash shop, no I do not, it would be bad for business to state they won't and end up doing it. But also I get some sense of ingerity with them so I lean to their favor on the PTW thing.
Still If I am paying a sub I also think IS should not have a cash shop for any reason, other than selling physical merchandise and future expansions.
Would it be a deal breaker if they do it for cosmetics and keep to their word that it will not exceed but be similar to cosmetics existing in the game and be unique, no but I am still strongly against it. If it at some point it goes against its original intent it could deff lead to a deal breaker for me.
I think in a day and age where players are leary of cash shops, if they produce a very functional and good game, I think they would draw more people in without a cash shop. It would generate more trust and good will from players that are simply tired of it.
Now this is from someone who is totally in love of everything this game is promised to offer, with the one exception. I want this game to succeed as well as IS and hope they produce other games in the future as well.
Pay for:
If they come out with something akin to random loot boxes, or other P2W mechanics, I will be among the first to join the rabble picking up their pitchforks, but until that time, all the theorycrafting and wishlisting over these hot button issues just gives us something to argue over till they give us something to provide actual feedback about.
Just like some current administration officials are finding out, once you type it on the internet it lasts forever. If you notice, actual quotes of information dried up mid-summer just before PAX, once they realized anything they mentioned even in passing was taken as gospel by the base. All we get now is carefully screened info that has been vetted carefully (a good thing), and selected softballs answered during livestreams. They haven't broken a promise yet, but then again, they haven't provided us with anything really yet.
Nor do I think they are obligated to do anything it is after all their game and it's a game I fully believe in.
I am merely stating my preference that with a subscription based game I do not like the idea of a Cash Shop for what ever reason.
If for some reason my wish came true and they decided not to have a cash shop, I would gladly go with what I would rather have in place of a cash shop. Paid expansions at time of release or pre-purchase But that is just my preference
Call me crazy but I don't like the idea of a Cash Shop in a subscription game.
P2W can come in many different forms, not just through a cash shop.
P2W can come through direct GM Services that can be purchased on the website, eg. GM Enchants etc.
P2W can come in form of an additional premium subscription that offers additional benefits which may or may not impact progress, convenience and general gameplay. Eg. Premium members can enter a daily dungeon 3 times compared to just 1 for normal subscribers, premium members get more inventory and storage slots or higher enchantment rates etc.
You seem to be tunnel visioned in a way in which everything that resembles a cash shop, even if they only sold megaphones for global chat in it, your instincts automatically trigger "Cash shop! P2W! P2W!!! Alarm! Alarm! Cash shop!!".
I Said: "Ashes is marketed to mature players, you and everyone else can make their own decision on wether or not to support the game further buy purchasing cosmetics and reskins."
I don't know why you edited your post instead of creating a new one. It makes it very hard to know what you're talking about.
No I've just done my research, you must not have done yours if you if you've come to the conclusion Ashes isn't heavily marketed to adults. The average age of a MMORPG player is 26, only 25% are teenagers. Steven has said a few times that they're attempting to recreate the feel of older MMOs, this is obviously going to appeal to nostalgic players.
I Don't believe you would look through all the steams and think to yourself, this game has been marketed to children. Maybe we misunderstood each other.
PS: No need to be so sarcastic about everything.
I merely state that I do not think Cash Shops belong in a game that is based on subscription.
Have a nice day
Which is what I think he was getting at.
For those people that really dislike cash shops which MMO are you playing that does not have a cash shop? And how much better is it campared to other MMOs that do have cash shops?
I do not think reality(actual successful MMOs) jives with some of the things that been typed. WoW, Guild of Wars, Elder Scrolls online all have cash shops and are not terrible.. Has any one actually have any proof of microtransactions (small fee for some item that you most likely buy over and over again) kind of like all the fees that credit card companies have. I mean that is the type of posts that I am reading. I think you guys are talking about other games not Ashes of Creations.