Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
This was around the time Internet was still dial up, well for me anyway. But we did have a online games MMOS being 1 of the genres.
Now understand that marketing and media was different then too, So when we paid full retail box price we were covering the costs of physical (in your hands tactile)media. We paid for it to be shipped around the world, we paid for the TV adds, magazine articles and publishing etc.
What we bought was the full complete package in an actual box with stuff inside it.
We accepted full retail because we knew we were getting the full coarse meal.
Now a days i find the full retail* box prices questionable considering the online environment and ease of accessibility and information... So when publishers moan about making money in the modern online world I am wary and dubious.
I have seen more cash grabs then games and it's starting to feel like the Atari video game collapse all over again.
I think in modern times Subscription only is perfectly reasonable, adequate and respectful....
Back on track...
So when we refer to 'nostalgia' with Ashes, and trying to recapture that OG MMO feeling, for some of us Microtransactions are not part of that equation at all and are actually quite offensive in premise not just content.
Majority of the oldschool brigade have learned to tolerate microtransactions, However we don't respect them because we know how they ruined our games over time.
That's why I prefer not to support them, they all typically derail into cash grabs, ruin communities and kill games long term.
That's just my experience.
That was taken out of context you would have to read the conversation not just a specific snip.
He said that :
A later post from me:
If you read the posts that is pretty much the focus I am trying to get at, Its is merely a summerised.
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Bottom line if I am paying for a game ( any game ) whether it is a subscription or a straight out purchase, I don't feel it should require a person to pay more money to unlock certain aspects of the game. ( Even if they are optional )
If I am paying for a subscription to play a game why should I have to pay even more money to unlock things within the game, that I am paying a subscription for.
MMOs if they are going to continue a long time need to be further developed, which costs money to do.
I would not be happy to paying for expansions as they come out.
If a company wants me to pay beyond a subscription I will be more than happy to do so in the form of an expansion.
I am right along with and love everything Ashes of Creation is proposing except for cash shops.
I think the point is, for this game to be meaning full, risk versus reward, not based on greed and PTW.
Even if the items are just cosmetics, it provides an advantage for people who are willing to pay even more money than the subscription, even if it is just for looks. Is this an even playing field?
Does this capture the word meaningful?
Is this Risk vs Reward?
Is it Cash over Effort?
Cash shop just seems contrary to what they say their missions goal is, what they want to provide us.
But honestly that is my one and only hangup atm, The rest of it rocks and can't wait for it to come out.
They asked us to give our feed back, so this is mine.
I'm not even going to read that
All good
Just didn't want you to get the wrong impression, based on his snipped quote, that I was implying that IS would vere towards PTW which is quite opposite of what I believe.
.
I agree, micro transactions should not be part of a game where subscription is paid.
There is the fear and well justified based on past experiences that when a lot of money is made from cosmetic cash shops the focus is centered on the cosmetics rather than game development.
Especially in a game where nodes are constantly changing and power between nodes are constantly shifting. Providing a endless changing environment which is brilliant and awesome. But adding that together with cosmetic cash shop seems a dangerous combination for relaxed further development of the game.
One cant say what they will do we will have to wait and see.
But considering the modo of making MMO great again and having it not be PTW dding Micro Transactions seems counter point.
Look at SWTOR was a fun game to play and still is just for the story lines if you are a new player but at some point it gets boring as all their focus is just making money off of cosmetics.
SWTOR is a non PTW game that has Micro Transactions through cosmetics.
PTLG ( pay to look good could be as bad )
Things have more meaning if they are earned not bought with cash.
***
People will argue that it is ok to have cash shop as long as it is not PTW. That it will help
make money to further develop the game. There is no telling what a company ill do with that money and it is their right to do with it as they please. This is what I am worried about with this model.
Me I don't like gambling, I have no problem paying for something and I would be more than happy to throw in extra cash for expansion packs. This way I know that the money I am providing is going towards developing the game.
People want MMORPG cause if done well it is something that they can stay with for a very long time with the community and friends they have made. It is what people have been missing and what has been lacking in many games of today fuled by greed.
Is if the goal is to make MMO great again and stay away from the PTW and greed cash grabs why put a Cash Shop into the game in the first place.
So yeah definitely the one thing I do not like about this game is Micro Transaction cash shop. Every thing else I love.
Ultimately it's up to them if they include it hopefully if enough people speak up they will decide not to
They have been honest about putting it in the game and if that is what they want to do that is their right, it is after all their game. But if enough people speak up and they listen it could maybe really have that feeling of it is our game that it belongs to IS and the people that play their game.
I've stated my opinion on Micro-transactions before, I don't like them at all and I don't care for a cosmetic store. But I will pull out the instant I see anything related to in-game effects, i.e BDO level of Micro-transactions which were EXP Boosts, Pets that loot for you and grant PvE / PvP bonuses etc.
I don't remember you or why you don't like me but please try not to create issues out of nothing. I was having a constructive conversation and stating my opinions just like everyone else.
Technically you will be buying game time not the actually game as some would say.
So you can not say well I paid for the Whole game I should enjoy the Whole game including cash shop items.
How about if you could buy cash shop items with some in game currency (of which it would take about 3 years to grind for one item that way you can feel a sense of accomplishment when you get it of course) Would that be ok? (some sarcasm used)
How do you tell some one not to take a 25 million dollar business oppurtunity that basically hurts no one cause it is optional and feel right about it. From the idealistic point of veiw (if we were living in a perfect world) you guys have somewhat of a point but not much.
If the DoomsDay Cash Shop Prophecy comes true and Every one Buys Every Thing
(lets say 500k player base times 1000 dollars worth of items in cash shop per say.) That would be half a billion in IS pockets. That would be pretty good cause the game would get that much better. They would have the money to make a huge expansion. It would put the game in a much better position to explode.
Yes if I am going to pay a subscription to play a game sure I can ethically and respectfully request for no cash shop, they can also respectfully say no to that request. The whole point and attraction to this game for me TBH was that it is geared to not be Greed Based and PTW as well as bringing back some of what made the older MMORPGs great all with a new twist. Honestly like I have said before I am on board with everything except Cash Shops. Cash Shops do not have to be PTW to ruin a game.
So hypothetically based on what you are saying why deprive a company from the ability to make money. So let's say once again hypothetically they end up making a lot more money from the ""Cosmetic Cash Shop"" as a company that wants to make money would their interest be in making even more money and focusing primarily on the Cosmetics and Cash Shop, or further developing the game.
We have just seen it too many times, Deff do not want to see another game that starts out great turn into a CossPay (Ken & Barbie) game like SWTOR.
That's just hypothetical. We can't know for sure what will happen with it till it happens.
But honestly if I am paying a subscription, respectfully, I shouldn't have to pay extra money to unlock certain aspects of the game. Wan't more money than what I pay in subscription add more content and I will be happy to pay for an expansion. This is my ideal and well ethical dream method of paying for and supporting an MMORPG.
(lets say 500k player base times 1000 dollars worth of items in cash shop per say.) That would be half a billion in IS pockets. That would be pretty good cause the game would get that much better. They would have the money to make a huge expansion. It would put the game in a much better position to explode.
Now IS could be in the 1 to 5% that does not abuse the Micro Transactions and that will be impressive but it is hard for a company to ignore money, just because a company makes a lot of money from a game does not mean they will put money back into further improving the game. In most cases they do not, not saying IS will fall into this. I can say that no matter how good the game is if it goes south with Micro Transactions I will be on my way out, but if they hold true to their promise and the Cash Shop does not take away from the game and future development I would most probably stay. I will still feel the same, Cash Shops should not be in a game that comes with either a hefty price or a subscription.
I will say that the fact they haven't closed this thread speaks in favor of their integrity.
Do I think it's 'ethical' to respectfully request Intrepid Studios not have a cash shop...yes
Are the majority of micro- transactions typically unethical?...yes
therefore it's is more likely that the cash shop is a violation of ethics* and anti consumer. So by making a request* we are in fact upholding our consumer rights.
Quite frankly I would like to believe Intrepid values the player/s not the payer/s.
I don't have anything against making money or even profit.
Making money is fine, if the product/service meet consumer expectations and standards then they will do fine. but make the game not the bank.
However, if any threshold of consumer disrespect is crossed for financial gain the credibility of product is diminished and people will be offended.
get enough offended people passed tipping point and it's GG dead game.
I can make random numbers too,
25mil in only 1 year cash shop diminishing returns-dead game. or
100mil over 5+years persistent income Life of game...hypothetical.
If i got the against-microtransactions-side right you are mainly skeptical about human nature itself and what money can make with human minds, but youre not exclude the possibility of IS keeping there promises. If that is correct i can comprehend your concerns but as you said we all cant do more then wait for what will happen.
Secondly you think microtransactions are independendly from developers intentions in some way unthical if its a full price or monthly paid game. If that is also correct i cant share youre view. In case of a full price game i would think the same way but mmo's are a complete dirrent thing. There never will be a full package of content you can define so easy wich you expect for youre money. Mmo's will develop always on and thinking on that there is never enough money. There can just be enough money for specific content. And thats why i have no problem with the idea that pepple who wanna support the development beyond the monthly supscription can do that with purchasiing some cosmetics. And just to clarify it, i just support the basic idea of it. There are sure many ways to go overboard with this and fall into cashgrab.
I hope they make cosmetic content in general avaiable for every player even without pay extra money wich when i remember right was what they said but you can buy some special cosmetics in shop to show of youre support and look good fast at the same time ^^
Expansion packs is a good way to make money for further development and this way you know your money went into further producing the game.
No matter how you look at cash shops it creates a divide in the community the Whales and the Non Whales.
- Isn't one of the focus of this game the community? Doesn't this create separation?
- ... to step away from Cash Grab greed? This is done by adding Micro-Transaction?
- ... to stay away from PTW but Pay to look better than others is ok?
MMORPG the good ones the ones people remember and miss, things are not just bought they are earned.Name even a few games where Micro Transaction cash shops were done with integrity
I have personally not challenged IS integrity, there is no way for anyone to know till it happens. My hopes is that maybe they would reconsider the adding of Cash Shops as it seems a bit contradictory to some of the goals they want to make.
There is no way for anyone to justify saying they are unethical by adding the cash shop unless they break our trust which they have not done yet. Are we justified at being skeptical and worried about Microtransaction, most definitely given the way they have been used by companies in the past.
1. I guess seperation would just be a topic if cash shop cosmetics would look extraordinary compared to what you can earn and craft with just playing the game. So if you can earn and craft many great looking things or costumes it wouldnt bother me to see some ppl run with costumes from item shop im not willing to pay for right now.
2. If they stick to what they said it would still be a steo away from todays default of cash grab.
3. see 1 ^^
Just my opinion and im also a little bit carefull with this topic but its nothing i condemn from the beginning (guess i will buy things myself). Can just hope they fulfill my exectations.
If they do pump at least a decent amount back into the game and balance the in game cosmetics to the cash shop cosmetics it will be inspirational to say the least.
Save the whole "but it funds the game," "IS is entitled to make a profit on their work," "micro transactions pay for future / more content," baloney for those that are naive and ignorant. I can rattle off several games that were extremely profitable just on the merits of their product and experience provided, without the use of anti consumer micro transactions. Stop making excuses.
And still i got a good feeling about ashes of creation. Mby i just like the hype itself. So call me naive if you like i cant deny that
Just be honest you are Steve Sharrif Cash Shop or No Cash. What would you actually do? Even if you had expansions and a sub fee you would still have to decide cash or no cash shop.
Just as a reminder GW2 went free to play cause of cash shop. And the cash shop formula is player base times money spent per player. So if we have 500k player base and half spent 100 dollars on a cash shop over one year that would be 25 million. If you say 50 dollars that is still 12.5 million so it is not out of a hat.
And just as another reminder this game is in Alpha and has about 20k backers so it is not inconcievable that this game will have a 500k player base when it comes out. I think it will be higher than that just because IS setting up the game to have a strong cumminity and that attracts lots of players.
You guys are telling Intrepid Studios MAKE LESS MONEY. Who is going to listen to MAKE LESS MONEY. That is why it is unethical. Dear IS the cash shop is the wrong way to make money cause...... When all you have to do is not use it. If some other player uses the cash shop so what? How does that affect your game play experience.
If one player uses a cash shop and the other does not then the one that does not use the cash shop would have a better gaming experience (per the CashShop Doomsday Propehcy) So just do not use the shop. Not so hard to do.
Finish this statement I will never use the cash shop and my game play will be degraded by people that do use the cash shop because .... (they grind less than you really?) (I am offended that he did not grind for that item...really?)
Finish this statement I am raiding, questing, pvping, grinding, and so on and I am negatively affected by the cash shop because....
Using your 500K base model.
For Future expansions if each were sold for: ( instead of Cash Shop )
- $40 = 20 mil
- $30 = 15 mil
- $20 = 10 mil
At what point is the money adequate profit for the company and room for future development vrs Greed that could take away from the original vision.If focus is money and they make more from Cosmetics than subscriptions why develop the game further if all you have to do is pump out more cosmetics? See this is the real danger here. ( This is what happened with SWTOR, a non PTW cosmetic Cash Shop game with optional FTP/Subscription )
What got me interested in this game was the Kickstarter Video:
From Kick Starter Video:
( May not be exact but close was typed while watching the video )I never really experienced communities quite like what MMORPG have to offer
Enjoyed the aspect of community in MMORPG that has been missing for a while and wanted to share what that was.
But the biggest grabber for me and I am sure a few others was the part where he says he was not impressed with the PTW, Cash Grab style games. I was soo excited!!!!!!!!!!
After doing some research I was shocked to learn that there was going to be a Micro Transaction for cosmetics. My heart sank
Wait I though one of the main reasons for this campaign was to not be PTW , Cash Grab.
What is Micro-Transaction if not cash grab and doesn't this go against the original campaign people signed on for?
Micro-Transaction articles:
- Business Insider
- Odyssy
- Rolling Stones
The whole point of what got me excited about this game was that I had the impression that it would not be PTW, Cash Grab. How does Micro Transaction equate to not cash grab, specially if we are already paying a Sub of $15 a month.Earning things in game is what gave the MMORPG value and depth. Cash shops take away from that experience and often leads to rifts between the Whales and Non Whales.
I remember last GW2 expansion selling point was all new legendary weapons....well we didn;t get them at launch no they are still working on them and its already the next expansion after, but we got heaps of glider skins and outfits....
Cash shops divide communities...fact.
The grind, or the type of content, or how it effects core game values though relevant are just facets that culminate into a split user base.
Is the risk of managing that split worth it? I don't believe it is.
Finish this statement: I am raiding, questing, pvping, grinding, and so on and I am negatively affected by the cash shop because....the rewards i get for doing mentioned activities pale in significance to shop items (perhaps not initially but over the lifespan of the game), or are not being updated/bug fixed due to resource prioritization or content that could have been used in game to enhance lore and enrich the environment are now isolated for an arbitrary $ value while paying a subscription fee.
Making less money/ethics is BS
Cash shops are a short term boom and bust (I was playing Paladins by Hirez but their recent OB64 patch has basically disenfranchised the entire western player base and sold to Tencent China eastern market which focuses heavily on grind/$ mitigation RNG market) The community is unanimously opposed to the proposal but looks like the $ are more important than the players so RIP paladins you had potential.
subscription only is a long term return with a consistent trickle profit accumulation. you will not make as much initially but you will make more over the duration life of the product.
trying to do both is just a disaster in the making, with the subscription model typically losing. Partly due to nature of cash shops and how they cultivate low attention spans and instant gratification.
That's what has happened to similar attempts in the past and I predict will happen to Ashes too.
Let us look at WoW Those guys have many projects that they want to do but just cannot. I am talking about solid things like updating animations. They do those like this: Well we will do this four classes this time then next four classes next time then we will do...They are so busy making new content and they cannot put it out fast enough and this guys literally make billions.
So now it is Dear IS you will already be making 90 million a year from subs and after careful analysis it is self evident that you do not need to make more than that there fore you should not be greedy and have a cash shop. Respectfully yours, Concerned Gamer. ( I will let you guys decide if that sounds ethical)
If you give 100 million to a dev team for a budget only to be used on the game they will go right through it. There will no surplus, there will be no well we have more than enough money. They will legitimately put all that money into the game minus operational costs of course. The devs will implement more projects that cost money.
In Kick Starter they had strecth goals those are the type of things the devs would spend 100 million on . But hey if you just want more dungeouns and raids and ground to explore I guess that is alright. Games need money so that they can evolve.
If you click on buy on the home page you will go to the cash shop with no items in it just headings which are pets, mounts, costumes, armour and there is a section for buildings and acessories for buildings I guess. There no items yet, but just by looking at the categories it does not look like the doomsday cash shop I have read about. I am pretty sure the devs are smart enough not to make most cash shop items better than the gear in game, but could be wrong.
A good number of posts descriibe a cash shop that is just horrid and terrible blurring the lines between a cosmetic shop that is non pay to win with some of your personal experiencies. It kind of puts AoC in a bad light before they even get off the ground.
Whocando said something about a split player base. Could you expound on that? sounds like Cash Shop items (that can be thought as content) are facets that split player base. Or Cash Shop = Split Player base with out explaining how or the mechanics of it.
ESO was launched as a box buy subscription model and went f2p in about a year...so great example there. The game was not polished enough at launch to commend a sub fee.
FF14 is more appreciated in eastern markets, I can't rate it as i have no interest in the game due to aesthetics..pretty sure they had to completely rebuild the whole game though.
Cash shops are not priced for majority of wallet owners they are dialed in to the 10%
of players who buy anything without abandon "whales" and at those prices segments of "paying supporters" get pushed out and disenfranchised. split*
have/have not simple.
"I want to support the game but i expect something in return" is such a self entitled sentiment.
If you really want to donate* to support* Intrepid send them a cheque.