If IS wants to make your identity visible they could add a system like GW2. You have an account name (which is visible by everyone) and you have your characters' names. No hiding, no faking, you are who you are regardless if you play on 2000 alts. Though I can see how it may break immersion.
"Magic is not a tool, little one. It is a river that unites us in its current."
@winner909098 everyone can already be every class and master every profession; it's called making an alt. If you want to be a mage one minute and switch to fighter the next all you have to do is switch characters, and then you can change back whenever you want. It's free class swapping at any time with no cooldown! Just because you can switch from your mage alt to your fighter alt doesn't mean you can do the dungeon by yourself.
If IS wants to make your identity visible they could add a system like GW2. You have an account name (which is visible by everyone) and you have your characters' names. No hiding, no faking, you are who you are regardless if you play on 2000 alts. Though I can see how it may break immersion.
Yay. Another person who thinks that a bland game of everyone being the same character is good. But this one is 'hard-core'. Gratz. I guess that makes it okay in their eyes.
Where is the sense of wonder by seeing so many different types of characters when everyone is the same? You feel that you want 1 character. Fine, just delete the current one and roll up another class. That way you get to fulfill your need, and others are not impacted.
Way to go. Why cannot people just add to an existing thread?
You literally skip what he proposed, made your own assumption on what he wants that literally contradicts what he wrote and then bash that.
I'll try to explain in fewer words - He wants an option to switch to different base archetype that would have to be leveled again from lvl 1
I'm not saying that this is good idea, purely because of people like you that create their own interpretation that contradicts what he wrote
Personally I think it would be great to just talk about the idea to have optional account surnames and shared account friend list instead of separate character friend lists for every alt
No idea what the controversy is over this idea. FFXI had all classes available to a single character and it was great. People still absolutely had alts though, as racial bonuses mattered if you were trying to min max and I’m pretty sure crafting was limited per character.
Also I don’t think the OP is saying no one can have alts, just that they don’t want to be forced to play an alt simply to play a new class. So if you like alts go wild, but the OP would like the option not to.
Even though I’d be fine with the idea, the fact is this game is not being set up that way, so OP you are just going to have to decide if that’s a deal breaker for you. Also it’s clear by this thread popular opinion won’t be helping you make this come to fruition.
I’m sorry to be the one to have to tell you this...
IS won’t undo all the hard work they’ve put into class identity and demarcation just so you can have what you want. You can argue and counter argue all the way to launch, but that won’t change Steven’s vision. That said, I hope you find some enjoyment in the game and I implore you to post what server, when they announce them, you will be playing on in the forums! That way I know Vash is on that server and won’t be transferring to it ❤️
P.S. I have another hard to swallow pill for you... You don’t speak for majority of the gaming population, not even half of it. The true majority of us are perfectly fine with having alts and keeping characters separate and unable to play every class on one character. I personally see no logic in your post or comments other than “I Want It” and that isn’t a good enough reason unless you’re paying the bill like Steven
I'm not against the idea of having a character being able to switch to different base archetypes. I am against it for crafting professions though... I'm not sure why I feel differently there...
And the arguments against it, LOL, wow...
"But the immersion! I feel more immersed when I have a characters that's only a tank, or only a mage!" Then go ahead and level alts and limit them to one base archetype per alt. No one is stopping you. And where's the immersion when you see players named Vashheals, Vashtank, or Vashmule?
"All I hear is 'I want an I-win button!" How is that an I-win button? It's not, you're just trolling if this is your argument.
"But class inter-dependency! It's a thing! If any player can be any class, what's the point of playing??" Are you suggesting no to alts, period? Because that's what alts are for, so one person can play multiple classes. Are you suggesting that players should be limited to one character per server?
"But they'll roll need on all the gear and steal all the gear!" I'm sure hoping I misread or misunderstood this argument, wherever it was. I'm not going back to find it. Although gear management could be a big issue if you're trying to level a second class on your character and you need multiple sets of gear for your multiple classes at multiple different levels. I ran into that problem in FFIV. Very annoying. Actually turned me off to leveling multiple classes, I didn't want to deal with it.
I'm also wondering how corruption would factor in to this. Players with alts might feel more enabled to engage in corruptive behavior, for sure. If corruption gets too high or restrictive, they can always log out and play an alt with no corruption. If a player like Vash has only one character, then gaining corruption brings harsher penalties because... well... he only has one character, and corruption penalties are per character, not per class.
If multiple classes WERE allowed per character, I would make it highly restrictive, like where you can't freely change your class anytime or anywhere you want like in FFIV. What if you have to go all the way back to your freehold each time you want to change your class? Isn't that just like having an alt? And if you give it a huge cost or cooldown, then bam, you actually make it more restrictive than having alts. Players can switch between alts by just logging out and logging back in under the alt. No penalty there (unless there are log in queues and you have to wait).
Having a surname between characters is an interesting idea, and is also somewhat of a compromise. Not sure how I feel about that idea to be honest.
But let's be honest, shall we? Regardless, alts will always be a thing. Why will they always be a thing? Dancing nude for roleplay purposes! And for running around with names like Buckfutter and ganking low level players.
There are certain complications that come with this system that could be alleviated here that ffxiv doesn’t do and some that won’t because of current design choices.
I play ffxiv as my main mmorpg currently, I have all but a few jobs to level 80 on the one character, and while it is nice to be able all classes without switching it does have its drawbacks.
To echo a previous post equipment is a huge issue ffxiv has a separate inventory space for equipment and in final it gets full quickly, you have to stop levelling certain classes and let others catch up that use the same gear just to make space. The worst for this is rings, each job equips two rings and they only have one space in the chest.
CURRENTLY in AoC armour goes into your inventory, which they have said will be limited to start, with your normal items and mounts going in there as well this will cause a problem with space
The other is more of a personal issue, I find that having the same character for the past 7 years I’ve played that game the static appearance gets boring, sure I can change my hair, and armour/clothes but the general appearance gets boring so I’ve spent irl money over the years buying the appearance potions just to spice it up, and there’s no way in hell im making an alt on a game as story heavy on final lol (I understand that this is a personal issue it’s just something to think about)
As for identity, in alt mmo’s don’t people know that characters are the alts of the big players anyway?
The only issue that comes with it is when your character name is taken and you have to pick something that you didn’t want
I believe Steven values different opinions, I don't see the way it works for AOC to be changing though, except account friends list, etc (maybe a handle for all characters?), but other than it probably won't change.
"Magic is not a tool, little one. It is a river that unites us in its current."
mrwafflesMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2020
@TeamVASH First off welcome! I noticed you just joined the AoC community and I hope you stick around.
There's one concept to AoC people aren't really describing and I think it'll help with why IS chose to allow alts. The main drive for alts is mostly todo with builds of a character. The goal to the entire class system is to avoid the "Build of the week" mentality. Rift did this to death. Some new streamer, patch, or just dominating PVP build hits the interwebs and everyone clones it. Completely removing individuality and a players hard work. They want people to have some customization and choice but when you choose your base Archetype thats it..one and done (for that character).
To catch you up ill use some numbers (as I love math). DISCLAIMER: These numbers are based off the current information given and I took the floor (low points) of the equation.
8 archetypes
64 classes
10 minimum skills per archetype
4 schools per skill per class
8*10*4*64 = 20,480+ different builds!
This does not take into account skill points into each skill which would make that number re-donk-ulously high!
Wrapping up:
I pitched an idea a month ago about doing what Discord or Steam does and having an account name + character name. This way fiends and people can see your account no matter your alt. There are a bunch of ways this go wrong and needs fine tuning but what im getting at is that I feel there are other solutions out there then just fundamentally changing the Alts vs Single character decision.
At first I was onboard with this, however, I realized it creates a lot of different issues that counter the concept of personal identity within a game. It would be really cool to be able to swap between classes and have access to all levels crafting.
First problem is you would never have to level again. Once you hit max level l you're done and have access to everything. Leveling is huge part of any mmo and if you don't have to do it again, then nobody will and it removes the reward of doing it in the first place. There would never be another player under max level.
Second problem is I think it would really have the opposite effect you're looking for. If you get tired or upset playing one class and have the ability to just switch, a lot players will never end up mastering the class because they can switch. It waters everything down because you have access to everything. Characters will become a jack of all trades and master of none.
I also think that having a feature like this would be great for those crazy hardcore players who would grind out everything but even having access to this feature would negatively affect the player base as a whole.
At first I was onboard with this, however, I realized it creates a lot of different issues that counter the concept of personal identity within a game. It would be really cool to be able to swap between classes and have access to all levels crafting.
First problem is you would never have to level again. Once you hit max level l you're done and have access to everything. Leveling is huge part of any mmo and if you don't have to do it again, then nobody will and it removes the reward of doing it in the first place. There would never be another player under max level.
Second problem is I think it would really have the opposite effect you're looking for. If you get tired or upset playing one class and have the ability to just switch, a lot players will never end up mastering the class because they can switch. It waters everything down because you have access to everything. Characters will become a jack of all trades and master of none.
I also think that having a feature like this would be great for those crazy hardcore players who would grind out everything but even having access to this feature would negatively affect the player base as a whole.
Unfortunately these problems you mentioned are also present with alts, having alts of every archetype and a single character with all archetypes both breed jack of all trades rather than masters, additionally once you’ve levelled all your alts to max level you won’t have to level again
I suggested this as well and what are these arguments "I WIN" Button? like how? is having 2 different characters "I WIN button". If not then how would this be? The ONLY reasonable argument for this is the class identity is lost by this absolutely nothing else. I for example I hate playing alts because it's so immersion breaking, I loose my friendlist, my friends won't know when I'm playing my alt.
Every time I make new character I have to announce my whole friendlist. IF they have shared friendlist, shared family name etc. then what is the point of the alts? why can't it all be done in 1 character? Give me a reasonable excuse. You could even gate it so that you much reach max level on your previous class to open new one.
It's convenient, it doesn't give you ANY advantage over alts, it builds up your reputation just like OP stated and that's it. "But but then everyone will be every class then what's the point?"... How does that differ from current situation? Everyone can be every class my making new characters. Im fine with family names as someone suggested but why do some of you argue against character with multiple classes but then pretty much say the exact same thing is ok but just needs to be done differently (family name system) and having to use different character. Is the name the issue?
Because I don't understand why do I have to send gold, items etc. to my ALT and do all the useless inventory hassle and "wait I log in my alt because he has that" instead of having them all on one character. Why? I'm all for hardcore oldschool gameplay but this is just making your life harder for the sake of it. Alts dont bring anything to the game but rather take away from it compared to 1 character having all the classes.
EDIT:*
TBH I'd rather have 1 character per server. That would be true player identity. Since alts are being abused with gamesystems like ashes. Big alliance of lets say 3 clans, 200 hardcore players. They create and alt clan (50 players) and instead of having 3 castles they will now have 4. This is what happens in lineage 2 quite frequently even tho it has subclass system.
- Alts are used to farm for certain materials instead of buying them off market from fresh players.
- Alts are used to kill your own character to get rid off corruption by dualboxing.
- Alts are used to harass to make you flag in pvp
- Alts are way to be total dickweed to your fellow players without loosing rep.
- Alts lets you be spy in rival clan
- Alts create the ability to create "twinks" and harass new players.
- Alts lets you abuse the family teleport system
- Alts can be used as worldboss 'cameras', you make alts and log them out at worldboss spawns, Log them in to see if it's up or not.
Now if u disable alts and dualboxing then I could get onboard of this class identity thing.
But since alts are not going to be taken out of the game I'd rather see more people use the subclass system instead of alts.
@mrwaffles@McFrassle this doesn't really address the fact that class swapping is already planned to be in the game, it's just called having multiple characters. I'm not deluded into thinking that Intrepid is going to change this part of the design and it's not going to stop me from (hopefully) having a bunch of fun with the game, but the fact is that you could absolutely design a class change mechanic that has the same amount of friction as creating a second character and every argument that you are making against class swapping would also be an argument against having multiple characters on the same server.
I also have a problem with how binary people seem to be making this. If the goal is to promote diversity and reduce fotm then why allow players to change their secondary class? Why not have players choose a class the first time they log in to the game and lock every character that is created on the account to that class? Surely being able to change your secondary class and making new characters with different classes is just casuals trying to water down the game and remove player identity from the game, no?
At first I was onboard with this, however, I realized it creates a lot of different issues that counter the concept of personal identity within a game. It would be really cool to be able to swap between classes and have access to all levels crafting.
First problem is you would never have to level again. Once you hit max level l you're done and have access to everything. Leveling is huge part of any mmo and if you don't have to do it again, then nobody will and it removes the reward of doing it in the first place. There would never be another player under max level.
Second problem is I think it would really have the opposite effect you're looking for. If you get tired or upset playing one class and have the ability to just switch, a lot players will never end up mastering the class because they can switch. It waters everything down because you have access to everything. Characters will become a jack of all trades and master of none.
I also think that having a feature like this would be great for those crazy hardcore players who would grind out everything but even having access to this feature would negatively affect the player base as a whole.
Unfortunately these problems you mentioned are also present with alts, having alts of every archetype and a single character with all archetypes both breed jack of all trades rather than masters, additionally once you’ve levelled all your alts to max level you won’t have to level again
That's a good point. I do think that having a main is the master in this situation though. Making a decision to choose which path you go down to create the sense of meaningful player identity, to me, is only there if something else is left out.
You're also correct in saying that once you're alts are leveled you don't have to level anymore. As far as we know this could take 1000 hrs to level 5 alts. I haven't seen anything mentioned about an heirloom type system to help with leveling alts, but either way this is a huge endeavor that will also help create an identity for your alt.
At first I was onboard with this, however, I realized it creates a lot of different issues that counter the concept of personal identity within a game. It would be really cool to be able to swap between classes and have access to all levels crafting.
First problem is you would never have to level again. Once you hit max level l you're done and have access to everything. Leveling is huge part of any mmo and if you don't have to do it again, then nobody will and it removes the reward of doing it in the first place. There would never be another player under max level.
Second problem is I think it would really have the opposite effect you're looking for. If you get tired or upset playing one class and have the ability to just switch, a lot players will never end up mastering the class because they can switch. It waters everything down because you have access to everything. Characters will become a jack of all trades and master of none.
I also think that having a feature like this would be great for those crazy hardcore players who would grind out everything but even having access to this feature would negatively affect the player base as a whole.
Unfortunately these problems you mentioned are also present with alts, having alts of every archetype and a single character with all archetypes both breed jack of all trades rather than masters, additionally once you’ve levelled all your alts to max level you won’t have to level again
That's a good point. I do think that having a main is the master in this situation though. Making a decision to choose which path you go down to create the sense of meaningful player identity, to me, is only there if something else is left out.
You're also correct in saying that once you're alts are leveled you don't have to level anymore. As far as we know this could take 1000 hrs to level 5 alts. I haven't seen anything mentioned about an heirloom type system to help with leveling alts, but either way this is a huge endeavor that will also help create an identity for your alt.
But you would still need to level up the classes even if they would be on 1 character... like what? is this just some roleplay thing I'm not getting?
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mrwafflesMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@EvelynChills Thats hard to answer. This discussion from a very high level is about the very narrow concept of player identity. Player identity is very different for different types of individuals but I want to mention 3: RP, Introverted (solo), and Extroverted (group/raid/guildies)
RP: players like alts so they can explore/fill in for different rolls as needed. This is very much dependent on the name of character. As a non RP player I dont want to butcher their play style so maybe they can expand on that.
Extroverted: Hot swapping / one character to rule them all is ideal for this person. They can change and adapt as they want. They can master everything they want to. Really do see this as a win for this type of person. the UX is much more fun then logging in and out all the time to craft, gather, raid, pvp.
Introverted: I am this type. They tend to be more solo creatures. Groups, Raids, and large scale PVP still happen but not their primary drive. They tend to have multiple alts. Example is i play with my friends a bunch but I truly like to go dark and grind to my hearts content. I don't want to be hitup by guild members, family, or friends. I log into this character to "get away". It's a way to compartmentalize my time. some days i feel like doing group content and others I'm a lone wolf. Having a single character inhibits this player.
Surely being able to change your secondary class and making new characters with different classes is just casuals trying to water down the game and remove player identity from the game, no?
I think it's a bit unfair to imply allowing alts is going to remove player identity from AoC. The very definition of player identity is drastically different for each players. IS has stated they don't want the hard core approach where there is only going forward aka you pick that skill or class you're stuck with it and sucks to suck. On the other hand they don't want 100% resetable skill/classes. The current method, as of today's info, is a balance of the two IMO.
Wow, someone here is really full of them self.
Don’t get me wrong, I get your point, but I think you’re trying to win a fight you can’t win here. Most people here love how it is and have there reasons for why. One way is better for some and the other is better for some other. I personally like alts because it would get way to much for me if I could be everything, and in raids or pvp people would after a while demand that you play in a special way/class just because it’s a little bit stronger or better just in this one raid. Obviously some people will still do it even now, but at least now you have a reason why you can’t play another class.
Also, if they would do it your way, you could be the best at everything and don’t need to communicate with others or trade to make the best weapons or mounts and so on. I could be wrong, but I think for now you can’t send things between your own characters, so you need to trade with others if you want to make the best things.
Saying that I'm full of myself is extremely rude and unhelpful to discussing an idea sir. I'm very passionate about an idea that I've wanted to see in every mmo I've ever played but no game was ever hardcore enough to implement it. Claiming that most people love how it is I believe to be completely false. I think given the option to consolidate all of their accomplishments to one character is something only a tiny % of people would choose to not utilize. Those who would rather play an alt by all means I have nothing against playing the way you want to play. All I care about is doing my part to see that an incredible idea is implemented into the game. If I fail so be it but it will not be for lack of love or effort in promoting the idea. This is an idea that is going to make the life of this game and the names of the players. Grinding out new classes and professions is fantastic content that extends the life of a game and I want to see this game outlast all other games
At first I was onboard with this, however, I realized it creates a lot of different issues that counter the concept of personal identity within a game. It would be really cool to be able to swap between classes and have access to all levels crafting.
First problem is you would never have to level again. Once you hit max level l you're done and have access to everything. Leveling is huge part of any mmo and if you don't have to do it again, then nobody will and it removes the reward of doing it in the first place. There would never be another player under max level.
Second problem is I think it would really have the opposite effect you're looking for. If you get tired or upset playing one class and have the ability to just switch, a lot players will never end up mastering the class because they can switch. It waters everything down because you have access to everything. Characters will become a jack of all trades and master of none.
I also think that having a feature like this would be great for those crazy hardcore players who would grind out everything but even having access to this feature would negatively affect the player base as a whole.
Unfortunately these problems you mentioned are also present with alts, having alts of every archetype and a single character with all archetypes both breed jack of all trades rather than masters, additionally once you’ve levelled all your alts to max level you won’t have to level again
That's a good point. I do think that having a main is the master in this situation though. Making a decision to choose which path you go down to create the sense of meaningful player identity, to me, is only there if something else is left out.
You're also correct in saying that once you're alts are leveled you don't have to level anymore. As far as we know this could take 1000 hrs to level 5 alts. I haven't seen anything mentioned about an heirloom type system to help with leveling alts, but either way this is a huge endeavor that will also help create an identity for your alt.
But you would still need to level up the classes even if they would be on 1 character... like what? is this just some roleplay thing I'm not getting?
I really like your post on sub-classes. The concept of leveling a different class with the same character seems like a good marriage of the 2 ideas. I'm just not convinced that's what they are going for (which I get is why were debating this in the first place). The idea of creating identity through exclusion also makes it so you have to rely on other people in the world to help you with things. It seems very clear to me that this reliance on someone else is very important to them in order to create a system that you can't play on your own.
I think this also has to do with their definition of what an mmo rpg is. By not being able to do everything with one character it forces you to interact with others. However, I do think that this identity could be kept while working in a system similar to the one you described.
@mrwaffles My second paragraph wasn't an argument that I agree with, it was meant to demonstrate the logical extension of the arguments people are presenting against having some sort of restricted class swapping mechanism. So yeah, I agree that it is unfair to imply that alts are going to remove player identity, in exactly the same way that it is unfair to imply that any sort of class changing mechanic would necessarily remove player identity. You still haven't explained how creating multiple characters so that you can play different classes whenever you want is meaningfully different than designing a class changing mechanic with an equivalent amount of friction. I think it is perfectly fine if people like to have alts but if the game is going to allow you to make a bunch of alts I really don't see any compelling reasons why a well-designed class change mechanic couldn't also be implemented.
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mrwafflesMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think given the option to consolidate all of their accomplishments to one character is something only a tiny % of people would choose to not utilize.
This sounds very much like a person who plays the game to level, get all the badges, unlock all the content. Really that is okay and very common, but your statement is based off that being the majority of the gaming community.
I've known so many people that create new alts just so they can create a new look because they like the character builder. yes games allow you to do this with mods you can buy or unlock but it's not the same experience. Others like Alts so they can start back up and do it again. Like digging out your old NES and playing Mario on 1-1. There are loads of reasons people want to have Alts.
If what you're saying I am the low % you speak about. I really have never cared for achievements in any game. I play MMOs differently then other games. Its the journey from level 1 to infinity. Not sure if it's my A.D.D. or the amazing games I've played but I rarely get full MIN MAX endgame. I always go "look new shinny character LETS START OVER AGAIN" lol.
If someone was able to master all class/professions on 1 character? I don't see a point here.
Also, what if someone wanted to be incognito ? For example, I want to have more than 1 characters. 1 for content and at least 1 for RP. I wouldn't want them to be linked in any way.
Family name will be a thing so you can have your characters in the same family and share the same family name.
I think this is the best answer.
While I do get the general concept of where the OP is coming from (because once I'm wrapped up in a character I don't really want to play ALTs) it is not very practical in game terms. As Birdie said, family name will be the best way people can connect you with your alter egos.
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mrwafflesMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@mrwaffles My second paragraph wasn't an argument that I agree with, it was meant to demonstrate the logical extension of the arguments people are presenting against having some sort of restricted class swapping mechanism. So yeah, I agree that it is unfair to imply that alts are going to remove player identity, in exactly the same way that it is unfair to imply that any sort of class changing mechanic would necessarily remove player identity. You still haven't explained how creating multiple characters so that you can play different classes whenever you want is meaningfully different than designing a class changing mechanic with an equivalent amount of friction. I think it is perfectly fine if people like to have alts but if the game is going to allow you to make a bunch of alts I really don't see any compelling reasons why a well-designed class change mechanic couldn't also be implemented.
My misunderstanding my bad. As long as I can alt, and there is no Build of the Week I tots agree with you lol. Make the game better for the masses but daddy wants his alts (I'm daddy in this example)
Personally I think it would be great to just talk about the idea to have optional account surnames and shared account friend list instead of separate character friend lists for every alt
Surnames would cause trolls to impersonate E.g your surname is "anderson" So you have Bob Anderson Alex Anderson etc. Then that encourages trolls to impersonate you with a Kyle Anderson and confuse everyone about who is who. They could go around player killing innocents and ruin your reputation.
At first I was onboard with this, however, I realized it creates a lot of different issues that counter the concept of personal identity within a game. It would be really cool to be able to swap between classes and have access to all levels crafting.
First problem is you would never have to level again. Once you hit max level l you're done and have access to everything. Leveling is huge part of any mmo and if you don't have to do it again, then nobody will and it removes the reward of doing it in the first place. There would never be another player under max level.
Second problem is I think it would really have the opposite effect you're looking for. If you get tired or upset playing one class and have the ability to just switch, a lot players will never end up mastering the class because they can switch. It waters everything down because you have access to everything. Characters will become a jack of all trades and master of none.
I also think that having a feature like this would be great for those crazy hardcore players who would grind out everything but even having access to this feature would negatively affect the player base as a whole.
Unfortunately these problems you mentioned are also present with alts, having alts of every archetype and a single character with all archetypes both breed jack of all trades rather than masters, additionally once you’ve levelled all your alts to max level you won’t have to level again
That's a good point. I do think that having a main is the master in this situation though. Making a decision to choose which path you go down to create the sense of meaningful player identity, to me, is only there if something else is left out.
You're also correct in saying that once you're alts are leveled you don't have to level anymore. As far as we know this could take 1000 hrs to level 5 alts. I haven't seen anything mentioned about an heirloom type system to help with leveling alts, but either way this is a huge endeavor that will also help create an identity for your alt.
This is assuming that people have a main, there are those that just create alts and want to play all of them never really settling on a class, IMO the frequency of this hasn’t changed between an alt mmo and a 1 character mmo.
I stated earlier that on final I have nearly all classes to max level, I still have a main class, it is the one I always gear first and always play new content with. I don’t think it’s fair to say that the one character all classes bread only this when alts have just as much a chance to do this also
Also I was under the assumption that they were talking about levelling all archetypes just on the one class so I should work out the same
I personally have no issue with the decision alts but I understand this is not for everyone. You can’t please everyone
Personally I think it would be great to just talk about the idea to have optional account surnames and shared account friend list instead of separate character friend lists for every alt
Surnames would cause trolls to impersonate E.g your surname is "anderson" So you have Bob Anderson Alex Anderson etc. Then that encourages trolls to impersonate you with a Kyle Anderson and confuse everyone about who is who. They could go around player killing innocents and ruin your reputation.
If someone was able to master all class/professions on 1 character? I don't see a point here.
Also, what if someone wanted to be incognito ? For example, I want to have more than 1 characters. 1 for content and at least 1 for RP. I wouldn't want them to be linked in any way.
Family name will be a thing so you can have your characters in the same family and share the same family name.
I think this is the best answer.
While I do get the general concept of where the OP is coming from (because once I'm wrapped up in a character I don't really want to play ALTs) it is not very practical in game terms. As Birdie said, family name will be the best way people can connect you with your alter egos.
How is it better than having it on one character? How is it not practical?
At first I was onboard with this, however, I realized it creates a lot of different issues that counter the concept of personal identity within a game. It would be really cool to be able to swap between classes and have access to all levels crafting.
First problem is you would never have to level again. Once you hit max level l you're done and have access to everything. Leveling is huge part of any mmo and if you don't have to do it again, then nobody will and it removes the reward of doing it in the first place. There would never be another player under max level.
Second problem is I think it would really have the opposite effect you're looking for. If you get tired or upset playing one class and have the ability to just switch, a lot players will never end up mastering the class because they can switch. It waters everything down because you have access to everything. Characters will become a jack of all trades and master of none.
I also think that having a feature like this would be great for those crazy hardcore players who would grind out everything but even having access to this feature would negatively affect the player base as a whole.
Unfortunately these problems you mentioned are also present with alts, having alts of every archetype and a single character with all archetypes both breed jack of all trades rather than masters, additionally once you’ve levelled all your alts to max level you won’t have to level again
That's a good point. I do think that having a main is the master in this situation though. Making a decision to choose which path you go down to create the sense of meaningful player identity, to me, is only there if something else is left out.
You're also correct in saying that once you're alts are leveled you don't have to level anymore. As far as we know this could take 1000 hrs to level 5 alts. I haven't seen anything mentioned about an heirloom type system to help with leveling alts, but either way this is a huge endeavor that will also help create an identity for your alt.
But you would still need to level up the classes even if they would be on 1 character... like what? is this just some roleplay thing I'm not getting?
For a lot of people this could be the case, I personally would still have alts in ashes if it isn’t as msq heavy as final is, if it did change to a one character does all system, because Although not a heavy role player in mmo’s I do play d&d so I like to have my characters have different character, and a lot of this for people are class identity.
But I also understand that this approach isn’t taken by everybody and for most it is just a fun game (mmo’s in general)
If someone was able to master all class/professions on 1 character? I don't see a point here.
Also, what if someone wanted to be incognito ? For example, I want to have more than 1 characters. 1 for content and at least 1 for RP. I wouldn't want them to be linked in any way.
Family name will be a thing so you can have your characters in the same family and share the same family name.
I think this is the best answer.
While I do get the general concept of where the OP is coming from (because once I'm wrapped up in a character I don't really want to play ALTs) it is not very practical in game terms. As Birdie said, family name will be the best way people can connect you with your alter egos.
How is it better than having it on one character? How is it not practical?
I didn't say it wasn't practical, because if we were in the real world this would make total sense but I qualified it with, "in game terms". It just is not very feasible to allow one character to master every profession and I assume every craft as well. If you did it all then there is no interdependence which is what the game is trying to generate which in turn helps create community.
Also something no one has mentioned is, what if I want to play another race? That's kind of hardwired in and, even IF you could change everything else, that is the one thing that makes zero sense to be able to change.
Comments
I heard a bird ♫
Not a fan of the Account Name way.
Just Use the same Name for all characters
I'll try to explain in fewer words - He wants an option to switch to different base archetype that would have to be leveled again from lvl 1
I'm not saying that this is good idea, purely because of people like you that create their own interpretation that contradicts what he wrote
Personally I think it would be great to just talk about the idea to have optional account surnames and shared account friend list instead of separate character friend lists for every alt
― Plato
Also I don’t think the OP is saying no one can have alts, just that they don’t want to be forced to play an alt simply to play a new class. So if you like alts go wild, but the OP would like the option not to.
Even though I’d be fine with the idea, the fact is this game is not being set up that way, so OP you are just going to have to decide if that’s a deal breaker for you. Also it’s clear by this thread popular opinion won’t be helping you make this come to fruition.
IS won’t undo all the hard work they’ve put into class identity and demarcation just so you can have what you want. You can argue and counter argue all the way to launch, but that won’t change Steven’s vision. That said, I hope you find some enjoyment in the game and I implore you to post what server, when they announce them, you will be playing on in the forums! That way I know Vash is on that server and won’t be transferring to it ❤️
P.S. I have another hard to swallow pill for you... You don’t speak for majority of the gaming population, not even half of it. The true majority of us are perfectly fine with having alts and keeping characters separate and unable to play every class on one character. I personally see no logic in your post or comments other than “I Want It” and that isn’t a good enough reason unless you’re paying the bill like Steven
And the arguments against it, LOL, wow...
"But the immersion! I feel more immersed when I have a characters that's only a tank, or only a mage!" Then go ahead and level alts and limit them to one base archetype per alt. No one is stopping you. And where's the immersion when you see players named Vashheals, Vashtank, or Vashmule?
"All I hear is 'I want an I-win button!" How is that an I-win button? It's not, you're just trolling if this is your argument.
"But class inter-dependency! It's a thing! If any player can be any class, what's the point of playing??" Are you suggesting no to alts, period? Because that's what alts are for, so one person can play multiple classes. Are you suggesting that players should be limited to one character per server?
"But they'll roll need on all the gear and steal all the gear!" I'm sure hoping I misread or misunderstood this argument, wherever it was. I'm not going back to find it. Although gear management could be a big issue if you're trying to level a second class on your character and you need multiple sets of gear for your multiple classes at multiple different levels. I ran into that problem in FFIV. Very annoying. Actually turned me off to leveling multiple classes, I didn't want to deal with it.
I'm also wondering how corruption would factor in to this. Players with alts might feel more enabled to engage in corruptive behavior, for sure. If corruption gets too high or restrictive, they can always log out and play an alt with no corruption. If a player like Vash has only one character, then gaining corruption brings harsher penalties because... well... he only has one character, and corruption penalties are per character, not per class.
If multiple classes WERE allowed per character, I would make it highly restrictive, like where you can't freely change your class anytime or anywhere you want like in FFIV. What if you have to go all the way back to your freehold each time you want to change your class? Isn't that just like having an alt? And if you give it a huge cost or cooldown, then bam, you actually make it more restrictive than having alts. Players can switch between alts by just logging out and logging back in under the alt. No penalty there (unless there are log in queues and you have to wait).
Having a surname between characters is an interesting idea, and is also somewhat of a compromise. Not sure how I feel about that idea to be honest.
But let's be honest, shall we? Regardless, alts will always be a thing. Why will they always be a thing? Dancing nude for roleplay purposes! And for running around with names like Buckfutter and ganking low level players.
Use a shared surname on all your characters, if you want to be recognized so desperately.
I play ffxiv as my main mmorpg currently, I have all but a few jobs to level 80 on the one character, and while it is nice to be able all classes without switching it does have its drawbacks.
To echo a previous post equipment is a huge issue ffxiv has a separate inventory space for equipment and in final it gets full quickly, you have to stop levelling certain classes and let others catch up that use the same gear just to make space. The worst for this is rings, each job equips two rings and they only have one space in the chest.
CURRENTLY in AoC armour goes into your inventory, which they have said will be limited to start, with your normal items and mounts going in there as well this will cause a problem with space
The other is more of a personal issue, I find that having the same character for the past 7 years I’ve played that game the static appearance gets boring, sure I can change my hair, and armour/clothes but the general appearance gets boring so I’ve spent irl money over the years buying the appearance potions just to spice it up, and there’s no way in hell im making an alt on a game as story heavy on final lol (I understand that this is a personal issue it’s just something to think about)
As for identity, in alt mmo’s don’t people know that characters are the alts of the big players anyway?
The only issue that comes with it is when your character name is taken and you have to pick something that you didn’t want
I heard a bird ♫
There's one concept to AoC people aren't really describing and I think it'll help with why IS chose to allow alts. The main drive for alts is mostly todo with builds of a character. The goal to the entire class system is to avoid the "Build of the week" mentality. Rift did this to death. Some new streamer, patch, or just dominating PVP build hits the interwebs and everyone clones it. Completely removing individuality and a players hard work. They want people to have some customization and choice but when you choose your base Archetype thats it..one and done (for that character).
To catch you up ill use some numbers (as I love math). DISCLAIMER: These numbers are based off the current information given and I took the floor (low points) of the equation.
8 archetypes
64 classes
10 minimum skills per archetype
4 schools per skill per class
8*10*4*64 = 20,480+ different builds!
This does not take into account skill points into each skill which would make that number re-donk-ulously high!
Wrapping up:
I pitched an idea a month ago about doing what Discord or Steam does and having an account name + character name. This way fiends and people can see your account no matter your alt. There are a bunch of ways this go wrong and needs fine tuning but what im getting at is that I feel there are other solutions out there then just fundamentally changing the Alts vs Single character decision.
First problem is you would never have to level again. Once you hit max level l you're done and have access to everything. Leveling is huge part of any mmo and if you don't have to do it again, then nobody will and it removes the reward of doing it in the first place. There would never be another player under max level.
Second problem is I think it would really have the opposite effect you're looking for. If you get tired or upset playing one class and have the ability to just switch, a lot players will never end up mastering the class because they can switch. It waters everything down because you have access to everything. Characters will become a jack of all trades and master of none.
I also think that having a feature like this would be great for those crazy hardcore players who would grind out everything but even having access to this feature would negatively affect the player base as a whole.
Unfortunately these problems you mentioned are also present with alts, having alts of every archetype and a single character with all archetypes both breed jack of all trades rather than masters, additionally once you’ve levelled all your alts to max level you won’t have to level again
Every time I make new character I have to announce my whole friendlist. IF they have shared friendlist, shared family name etc. then what is the point of the alts? why can't it all be done in 1 character? Give me a reasonable excuse. You could even gate it so that you much reach max level on your previous class to open new one.
It's convenient, it doesn't give you ANY advantage over alts, it builds up your reputation just like OP stated and that's it. "But but then everyone will be every class then what's the point?"... How does that differ from current situation? Everyone can be every class my making new characters. Im fine with family names as someone suggested but why do some of you argue against character with multiple classes but then pretty much say the exact same thing is ok but just needs to be done differently (family name system) and having to use different character. Is the name the issue?
Because I don't understand why do I have to send gold, items etc. to my ALT and do all the useless inventory hassle and "wait I log in my alt because he has that" instead of having them all on one character. Why? I'm all for hardcore oldschool gameplay but this is just making your life harder for the sake of it. Alts dont bring anything to the game but rather take away from it compared to 1 character having all the classes.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/46050/sub-class-system#latest
Here's my suggestion on it.
EDIT:*
TBH I'd rather have 1 character per server. That would be true player identity. Since alts are being abused with gamesystems like ashes. Big alliance of lets say 3 clans, 200 hardcore players. They create and alt clan (50 players) and instead of having 3 castles they will now have 4. This is what happens in lineage 2 quite frequently even tho it has subclass system.
- Alts are used to farm for certain materials instead of buying them off market from fresh players.
- Alts are used to kill your own character to get rid off corruption by dualboxing.
- Alts are used to harass to make you flag in pvp
- Alts are way to be total dickweed to your fellow players without loosing rep.
- Alts lets you be spy in rival clan
- Alts create the ability to create "twinks" and harass new players.
- Alts lets you abuse the family teleport system
- Alts can be used as worldboss 'cameras', you make alts and log them out at worldboss spawns, Log them in to see if it's up or not.
Now if u disable alts and dualboxing then I could get onboard of this class identity thing.
But since alts are not going to be taken out of the game I'd rather see more people use the subclass system instead of alts.
I also have a problem with how binary people seem to be making this. If the goal is to promote diversity and reduce fotm then why allow players to change their secondary class? Why not have players choose a class the first time they log in to the game and lock every character that is created on the account to that class? Surely being able to change your secondary class and making new characters with different classes is just casuals trying to water down the game and remove player identity from the game, no?
That's a good point. I do think that having a main is the master in this situation though. Making a decision to choose which path you go down to create the sense of meaningful player identity, to me, is only there if something else is left out.
You're also correct in saying that once you're alts are leveled you don't have to level anymore. As far as we know this could take 1000 hrs to level 5 alts. I haven't seen anything mentioned about an heirloom type system to help with leveling alts, but either way this is a huge endeavor that will also help create an identity for your alt.
But you would still need to level up the classes even if they would be on 1 character... like what? is this just some roleplay thing I'm not getting?
RP: players like alts so they can explore/fill in for different rolls as needed. This is very much dependent on the name of character. As a non RP player I dont want to butcher their play style so maybe they can expand on that.
Extroverted: Hot swapping / one character to rule them all is ideal for this person. They can change and adapt as they want. They can master everything they want to. Really do see this as a win for this type of person. the UX is much more fun then logging in and out all the time to craft, gather, raid, pvp.
Introverted: I am this type. They tend to be more solo creatures. Groups, Raids, and large scale PVP still happen but not their primary drive. They tend to have multiple alts. Example is i play with my friends a bunch but I truly like to go dark and grind to my hearts content. I don't want to be hitup by guild members, family, or friends. I log into this character to "get away". It's a way to compartmentalize my time. some days i feel like doing group content and others I'm a lone wolf. Having a single character inhibits this player.
I think it's a bit unfair to imply allowing alts is going to remove player identity from AoC. The very definition of player identity is drastically different for each players. IS has stated they don't want the hard core approach where there is only going forward aka you pick that skill or class you're stuck with it and sucks to suck. On the other hand they don't want 100% resetable skill/classes. The current method, as of today's info, is a balance of the two IMO.
Saying that I'm full of myself is extremely rude and unhelpful to discussing an idea sir. I'm very passionate about an idea that I've wanted to see in every mmo I've ever played but no game was ever hardcore enough to implement it. Claiming that most people love how it is I believe to be completely false. I think given the option to consolidate all of their accomplishments to one character is something only a tiny % of people would choose to not utilize. Those who would rather play an alt by all means I have nothing against playing the way you want to play. All I care about is doing my part to see that an incredible idea is implemented into the game. If I fail so be it but it will not be for lack of love or effort in promoting the idea. This is an idea that is going to make the life of this game and the names of the players. Grinding out new classes and professions is fantastic content that extends the life of a game and I want to see this game outlast all other games
I really like your post on sub-classes. The concept of leveling a different class with the same character seems like a good marriage of the 2 ideas. I'm just not convinced that's what they are going for (which I get is why were debating this in the first place). The idea of creating identity through exclusion also makes it so you have to rely on other people in the world to help you with things. It seems very clear to me that this reliance on someone else is very important to them in order to create a system that you can't play on your own.
I think this also has to do with their definition of what an mmo rpg is. By not being able to do everything with one character it forces you to interact with others. However, I do think that this identity could be kept while working in a system similar to the one you described.
This sounds very much like a person who plays the game to level, get all the badges, unlock all the content. Really that is okay and very common, but your statement is based off that being the majority of the gaming community.
I've known so many people that create new alts just so they can create a new look because they like the character builder. yes games allow you to do this with mods you can buy or unlock but it's not the same experience. Others like Alts so they can start back up and do it again. Like digging out your old NES and playing Mario on 1-1. There are loads of reasons people want to have Alts.
If what you're saying I am the low % you speak about. I really have never cared for achievements in any game. I play MMOs differently then other games. Its the journey from level 1 to infinity. Not sure if it's my A.D.D. or the amazing games I've played but I rarely get full MIN MAX endgame. I always go "look new shinny character LETS START OVER AGAIN" lol.
I think this is the best answer.
While I do get the general concept of where the OP is coming from (because once I'm wrapped up in a character I don't really want to play ALTs) it is not very practical in game terms. As Birdie said, family name will be the best way people can connect you with your alter egos.
My misunderstanding my bad. As long as I can alt, and there is no Build of the Week I tots agree with you lol. Make the game better for the masses but daddy wants his alts (I'm daddy in this example)
Surnames would cause trolls to impersonate E.g your surname is "anderson" So you have Bob Anderson Alex Anderson etc. Then that encourages trolls to impersonate you with a Kyle Anderson and confuse everyone about who is who. They could go around player killing innocents and ruin your reputation.
This is assuming that people have a main, there are those that just create alts and want to play all of them never really settling on a class, IMO the frequency of this hasn’t changed between an alt mmo and a 1 character mmo.
I stated earlier that on final I have nearly all classes to max level, I still have a main class, it is the one I always gear first and always play new content with. I don’t think it’s fair to say that the one character all classes bread only this when alts have just as much a chance to do this also
Also I was under the assumption that they were talking about levelling all archetypes just on the one class so I should work out the same
I personally have no issue with the decision alts but I understand this is not for everyone. You can’t please everyone
Not if they make Surnames unique as well.
How is it better than having it on one character? How is it not practical?
For a lot of people this could be the case, I personally would still have alts in ashes if it isn’t as msq heavy as final is, if it did change to a one character does all system, because Although not a heavy role player in mmo’s I do play d&d so I like to have my characters have different character, and a lot of this for people are class identity.
But I also understand that this approach isn’t taken by everybody and for most it is just a fun game (mmo’s in general)
I didn't say it wasn't practical, because if we were in the real world this would make total sense but I qualified it with, "in game terms". It just is not very feasible to allow one character to master every profession and I assume every craft as well. If you did it all then there is no interdependence which is what the game is trying to generate which in turn helps create community.
Also something no one has mentioned is, what if I want to play another race? That's kind of hardwired in and, even IF you could change everything else, that is the one thing that makes zero sense to be able to change.