Greetings, glorious adventurers! If you're joining in our Alpha One spot testing, please follow the steps here to see all the latest test info on our forums and Discord!
Options
Why i will not be playing AoC
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Currently, raids will not be scaling. Group sizes will be 8, 16, and 40. Raids are specified as 40 people, so apparently 8 and 16 people will be dungeons. Boss difficulty will scale based on performance. So, if a group does well against one boss, the next boss will be more difficult and drop additional loot.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Raids
If you can't properly read a post you maybe should try to focus a bit more.
Maybe copy into a text editor so you can make paragraphs yourself.
He really can improve on that to be fair.
Thing is his main problem is that pve content (mostly raiding) will be pretty poor, which is a legitimate concern.
I think you must be crazy not to think that as a PvE player leaning towards raiding in particular.
And he is saying that in his third sentence:
Also how can you mistake....
(later clarified as for example lack of addons etc.)
....with not being able to play a game because of it?
He is perfectly clear in his statement.
I have no problem if you all go yolo toxic mode and secretely promote dps meters.
But come on guys at least try a bit harder, arguing against a position that does not exist is just pointless.
Maybe because he titled the thread "Why I will not be playing AoC" and then listing his reasons why
Yea exactly, the title seems to be the biggest problem a few people have with the threat,
not his points.
Just for fun let's read his stance on addons again since he cannot play without them:
The argument he was actually making there is that addons can add nesseccary/good features the devs overlooked.
He gave the example of a customizeable strategy map to organize in raids to explain that idea.
I personally would love to see sth like that.
Also I think he is more walling than listing, but that might be just my impression.
You can't cherrypick, you have to take his context as a whole. He's arguing his point yes, but with the ultimatum that he's not going to play without the additions he wants. He's starting off in bad faith from the beginning and it's obvious he's not willing to listen to reason.
But Intrepid has said you can customize your interface. Wait and see how much we can do
I don't think i read it all, which is my bad. But i just though that if i can play without add-ons, others must also be able. Do i use add-ons, that depends on the game. Vanilla wow, yes. I don't think i have used them for any other mmo. I do not promote a dps meter. I never use it. I have spoken against it
https://knightsofember.com/forums/members/winner909098.54
I personally am a player that enjoys mostly PvE. I have played many MMOs and was an extensive raider in EQ and Vanilla WoW thru WOTLK. While I am apprehensive of PvP one on one (since I play healers mostly), I still bought into Steven's vision because it resonated with me. Large scale battles sound great (and were fun back in DAoC).
I miss the days of games without tons of addons and dps meters. I am happy they are wanting to stay away from that. Don't get me wrong, I use them in WoW, but I feel they make me a less attentive player and they take a lot of the fun out of things. I play WoW now because it is a mindless time filler, not because it is fun and engaging.
TLDR; Make viable suggestions not demands -- if you want a game to fit your idea of the perfect game, go drop the money and build a studio to make your own. Suggestions and constructive criticism don't hurt and could help shape the game, but don't expect them to do a 180 just because you want them to. They are not catering to everyone. They are building Steven's vision.
Lyriss L'Enescor - Empyrean Cleric of Gray Sentinels
What? The wow community has one of the strongest bonds imagineable:
Their hatred for the game they love.
It's not perfect but it definitely has a very passionate community.
On a more serious note.
Have you seen how many people came to show respect after Reckful died?
I think it was impressive.
Yea sure the game is not finished so they will hopefully improve it.
But the whole point of getting in touch with the community is to get feedback that improves the game.
To be clear:
A "wait and see" approach is exactly the opposite of what we should do and we are supposed to do.
I am not really cherrypicking, I am just focusing on his premises, those are:
1. Raiding won't fullfill his needs as a PVE player.
2. Addons are no requirement for games, but he prefers to have them.
3. He is a community leader and dislikes being fixed in the member count for raids.
Conclusion => not playing the game
This is the core of his post, everything else are just hypothesis and examples to explain why those premises are possibly true.
Why would I focus on something that he is just using as a tool of explanation if I can look at the core of his reasoning instead?
Wouldn't that be cherrypicking with the intention of ignoring his actual points?
So you would play the game even if it had no feature you enjoy?
Everyone has certain things in mind that make or break a MMO for them, how is that different from him?
He is just letting the devs know so they can be aware of it, this is also valuable feedback.
Is he really though?
Yes, cherrypicking because you're taking those out of context. Sure they are valid points if this was a good faith thread, but it's not, at least when talking with him it isn't. Between you and me we can have a good discussion about it.
We're not talking about me, we're talking about his childish post. I wouldn't go into a Super Mario 64 forum and argue about how I'm not going to play their game unless they let me play as Waluigi.
I'm mature enough to make a thread discussing these issues without putting ultimatums on the table. And sure, if a game had nothing I wanted in it, then why would I play it? But to imply AoC has nothing he will enjoy is very hyperbolic and a ridiculous stance for you and him to take.
Yes. Don't play dumb.
No that's just as wrong as saying it is a PvE game.
If you would have bothered reading it up they always describe that PvE shapes the world while PvP challenges the world order that has been established before.
It is kind of a ying-yang relationship, as a result there is no clear focus.
You could also view PvE as the orderly productive force while PvP is the chaotic destructive force.
They are perfectly clear about this, hence why it is viewed as a PvX game.
Source:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Ashes_of_Creation
Try reading the paragraphs about nodes, pve and pvp.
My points are simple to those who have raided for many years. People who like to PVE at the higher levels just want to do their best. This does not mean they are the best. A DPS is just a tool used. It shows you what you bring to the table. The perfect example is a support class not a damage class. I honestly don't care how i come off to people on a forum. If there is anything i know it is how to run a guild and raid at a high level.
Good guilds keep players around. The most common compliment i get from my raiders is when they tell me if they had not joined my guild they would of likely taken many breaks throughout the years but because the guild was so much fun to be in and competitive that is was hard for them to walk away. Typically guilds have a hard time mixing the both.
I have killed so many extremely difficult bosses over the years. Just curious Mr. all over the place raider, What is it that you enjoyed about raiding and when did you ever raid without a Meter? what kind of requirements did you encounter at the higher levels of play vs the lower end of raid teams? How did that effect your experience?
I can tell you the honest answers to these questions is why it is so important people understand what i am getting at. PVE gives the game consistency on players. Like i said at the start of this thread, MMORPGS have 2 legs to stand on, PVP and PVE, fail at 1 and the game falls over on itself in a couple of months.
I know people keep putting DPS meter here, its actually just a meter the PVE community is asking for. Meters show what your class brings tot he table. It may not just be damage. Without that information you're flying blind and could actually cause a uneducated toxicity which is far worse than a standard of play. Standard being the expectancy that everyone is trying their best to bring what their class can bring to the table. Would suck to join a dungeon group and find out that 2 of the members are not really bringing anything to the group. I imagine that would be a miserable experience. the part that sucks is you would not be able to make a educated critique of the person because everyone is blind. I just know all of the raiders i know would hate not knowing what they bring to the table.
All of the MMOPRGs i play have both. No MMO's have been successful for long without both. All it takes is one game with both and the game is no longer competing in the market.
Hi, I am not making demands. I am putting all the information i have out there so Steven can see another side of a coin. If he does not want to listen to my input then that is 100% fine. However this information is just to make the game better. i am sick of seeing these MMORPGs die over and over within a couple of months because they get something wrong. They all had good ideas. I tried so many just to find out they either mess up PVP or PVE and the game dies within a few months. A skeleton crew of forum players who are super casual being the only ones left who secretly play a few other MMOs to scratch the itches that the MMO they supported does not have. Its a sick cycle. I want a new MMO to wash out WoW. Its a old game and i want something new and creative. I like a ton of what i am hearing from AoC however the formula is key, good PVP and PVE content is the way to go. Feel free to shoot for a different market but i noticed the longevity of the success is crucial on this point.
Addons are to fill the void of things missed or messed up by the developers. Put in your suggestions now so that you dont need a addon for it later. Meters are crucial for PVE content if he wants a high end competitive PVE community. The big PRO to having a higher end of competitive PVE community is that they will be extremely active in the game for long term. PVPers tend be more on the casual side because it doesnt require a structure like most of the PVE content. This keeps alot of players active over a long period of time which keeps the game lively.
Do you plan on healing or playing a support class? How is it going to feel not knowing if you're actually helping your team? As someone who has played all roles over the years, when i play healer or support, i like seeing the impact i bring to the encounter. That goes for PVP and PVE. Without that information it would be hard to choose these classes and roles for me.
I hope my points are being heard. It is a difficult task to educate different level raiders who play more casually on the importance of some of the small stuff. Its a common occurrence to have a player who is at a average level yell at a officer in a top guild for doing something they didn't understand. This does not make either side wrong. There is often many ways to use a tool or function. More competitive guilds vs more casual guilds will have different standards of play. The raiders i know would enjoy competitive/educated play vs guessing how things scale or stack. We would test and figure it out. Raid sizes i still think should be smaller than 40 however there is a lot still up in the air. This is the time for discussion. Lets not wait until its too late.
I like the idea. Think it would be a good balance between the two.
i like that. It allows meters where it would be used. it would make reviewing the data in detail a little weird if i had to sit in the raid for a hour or 2 instead of a main hub. I will take what i can get though haha.
i am gonna ask some of the Youtubers i am friends with that PVP at a high level and see how important a meter would be for them.
there is a few of them out there. However with classic servers and retail is does increase the odds.
When you have an easy route to min-maxing you inevitably run into toxicity based around optimizing, and DPS meters are that easy route.
Addons also facilitate this undesirable outcome.
The thing is, if you allow addons, you're opening the floodgate and suddenly you have thousands of addons like ESO
Maybe they could go the GW2 route and tentatively sanction a very select few trusted and proven addons. GW2 only has 3 addons that are allowed, and honestly they could and should all be implemented directly into the client.
6 pages later
Has this guy finished making his point yet?
No, I think he's actually more passionate about AoC than the rest of us but he's playing tsundere
You don't even need addons to be implemented, having a proper combat log export into a txt file is basically enough.
I think you only needed a makro to do that in wow so you can upload the data to Warcraftlogs:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/
Then they give you a couple of nice graphs and stuff to make the data easy to read.
So no, you don't even need add-ons in the game to have proper combat tracking.
As a result they don't facilitate anything add-on related as a general rule.
Nope.