Greetings, glorious adventurers! If you're joining in our Alpha One spot testing, please follow the steps here to see all the latest test info on our forums and Discord!
Options
Why i will not be playing AoC
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Stick around long enough in this game that you already don't want to play, and you might find out!
Ah, good Ol' Tibia times. What a player driven game it used to be.
spoiler, nothing changed
fixed
I have highlighted the most glaringly wrong statement in this reply.
You might not use a DPS meter, but sure as anything a pick up group you join will use it. That puts pressure on everyone in that group.
How many times have people been in a group and been pressured to up the dps or told they are not doing their job?
All tools such as dps meters do is put pressure on players who just want to enjoy themselves. When I come home from a hard day at work I don't want to be shouted at by some know it all who thinks that everyone should be over analysed in how they play the game.
Further, dps is not the only measure of how accomplished a player is at an MMO. It is time MMOs got back the ultility roles. How does your dps meter assess the contribution of the bard that is dishing out buffs and not really doing much damage himself? His job is as crucial as the wizard who is chucking out crazy damage.
That is not to mention the wizard who is chucking out crazy damage is often doing so at the detriment to the group. Many players will concentrate on the dps meter to be top of the group regardless of how it effects the tank or the healer. I know, I was led down that trap myself in EQ2. I found myself trying to outcompete guildmates in EQ2.
It becomes a competition, and a good group shoulkd never be that. It should be about enjoying oneself and socialising.
Success should be measured by achieving goals and having a great time, not by how quickly a rogue can pound the keys.
What an incredibly unfair assessment of a tool. That's like saying all tools in a toolbox such as hammers do is put pressure on people who just want to relax at home and not be craftsmen/DIYers. I've spent countless hours over the course of WoW using damage meters for breakdown analysis, rotation optimization solo on a dummy, and testing other specs/mechanics.
The real solution to a toxic community is finding your own positive community/guild to join. Flexing control over a game just so a pug might be nice to you as you relax through content is just immature.
P.S. Communities will be toxic without meters, and the utility classes will likely be pushed to the side in favor of raw output classes simply due to perception. You can't avoid it, so face it straight up.
Yes, communities will be toxic without tools, but having a dps meter running just accentuates that. I saw it in WoW classic. In lower level dungeons people being expected to up their damage. Players that are only 25% through their progress being told they need to be better?
If communities are going to be toxic anyway, why have tools that will just give extra reasons for people to be toxic.
I'm in a positive community, but that doesn't mean I don't want to get out there and meet others. Call me mad, but I like pugs. Ashes has the potential to recreate that feeling that EQ had. Not joining groups short term just to get a quest done, but to join to enjoy yourself.
It's time to get that social aspect back, not over analyse everything we down down to the tiniest of minutae.
I'd also like for Ashes to do away with the "meta" focus that so many games have nowadays. All styles of play should be appreciated, not just the ones that focus damage and boost efficiency.
Let's have a nice community, not an aggressive one that pushes for efficiency.
The problem is that you're trying to force a nice community, and you can't. You want to design the meta out of a game but you don't realize that it's called a "meta" because it's established separate from the game. You can't control it. It WILL be established. The most path of least resistance will be found and if you don't follow suit, some pugs will be negative towards you.
Nothing will recreate the feeling EQ had, because it was a different world and you were a different person. Everything has changed since then, and the gamers who sat in game and socialized all day a decade ago (including me during college in Shattrath during WoW TBC) likely don't have the time they once did (I have a full time job, a wife, and a child now).
Do I wish I was in an apartment with 3 friends farming Mag'har rep instead of going to class, playing WoW until 2 AM then going to eat pancakes with said roommates at IHOP to talk more about WoW? Yeah, of course, though I also love my family life now too.
Does Ashes have any chance of recreating that magic? No, because it had very little to do with WoW itself, and it's an unreal expectation.
Pugs in GW2 were every bit as toxic as those in WoW, and GW2 had no dps meter. In fact, I'd argue they were more toxic, because they'd straight up refuse entire classes instead of at least let you try to see if you measure up. More information doesn't result in more judgment, just more targeted judgment.
To me this sounded like you dont want to play WoW but also do want to play it. Why not just play WoW then? try out AoC whenever you can and if you dont feel it then back to WoW
Just thought I'd chime in here.
In regards to 'dps meters'. Thats a NO-GO. This is a 'community-based'. That means you have the leeway to do WHATEVER you want. If you can do so without being reprimanded, kudos. Its a possibility. You can be a mass-murderer that runs around killing raider groups. THATS PART OF THE GAME. and its intended.
They DONT WANT YOU (as a guild leader, as a player, as a support, etc.) to know what everyone else is doing. You can see an animation. You can tell they are doing something. What if they built tank role and did 20 dmg while you built dps role and did 500 dps? Does that matter? What if you built tank and did 400 dps and they built dps and did 40 dps? Are you going to critisize them on how they play? I'll tell you right now, you'll likely try to kick them from the group ASAP if you knew. So they have the right as a SOCIAL STANDARD to hide that.
You want a DPS meter? Ask every player individually how much they are doing in damage per hit; then observe their hit counts. You think DPS matters? Then explore it and find out. You are not intended to be given a silver platter to benefit YOUR play style of running things. Its intended to be a community-based enjoyment game. That means that IF YOUR COMMUNITY WANTS TO HIDE, THEY CAN!
Now... as a 'guild leader' or whatever.. you want to truly sneak behind the scenes, and get your own gages? You think you can beat the system and find out how much dmg others do, so you can pre-determine if they are worthy of your group? Or even more so- to rat on them later and pvp them, knowing they dont have the damage to solo you.
Well, the good news is, YOU CAN!. Like how players can HIDE their dps, players can 'SPY' on other player's dps. Its called 'observation'. Its a community like thing. Where you watch... and you see... And then you KNOW.
I'm going to be watching on the side lines. When you fight that Lizard spawn trash mob, I'm going to be watching. When you hit it, I'm going to see how much % of the mob's hp goes down. And how quickly. and in the end, I'm going to know EXACTLY how much DPS you have.
Then when you ask me what my DPS is, I'm going to straight up lie about it, and tell you I hit for 100 dps. Then when you try to turn on me cuz you think I'm an easy target, I'll solo pvp win vs you. Cuz I did my research, and you relied on a 'tool' for your knowledge.
If that is true... which I can assure you you are wrong on many accounts (I've known many elitists, as I play a game filled with them, which is all about PVE; and has no DPS meter; you learn to count your own damage, or determine how fast you take down mobs beforehand), then you will have no trust issues with your group. And you could go around and literally ask your party members any questions you may have had. 'why did we fail?' Guy2: I was hitting really low numbers. You: Ok. Im going to kick you from the party, and get a REAL dps. Guy2: But... I'm a support role? You: Doesn't matter! DPS OR NOTHING!
Or option 2: Guy3: I was hitting for 500 a hit. Guy4: I was hitting for 150 a hit. You: Why is your damage so low Guy4? Guy4: I am using two-weapons and attack speed buffs on my build, averaging 4 hits per second. Guy3: Oh, I'm a heavy hitter with 1 attack per second. You: Oh, ok. So Guy4 is actually doing some good damage then. Lets see how we can improve your damage, Guy3.
If you've read this far, I think you can guess where this is going.
If your a REAL leader, you can pay attention. Don't expect to be advantage-boosting with 3rd party programs either.
for your comment about raid sizes; any OPEN-WORLD boss I'm sure can be partied-up against by as MANY players as you can muster. Good luck on your social-skills, my friend. A tip, incentives always pay off. Unless you go back on your word.
As i have said before. If you can't play without a dps meter, i think the issue is in your end. A solution could be a training dummy you can place on your freehold. Or just use some logic and see how well it goes with keeping people alive, staying alive killing things
alright ill throw an opinion in the ring. I like the final fantasy 14 design, you can have a dps meter but we are gonna ban your @$$ if you talk about it in game. Nothing productive comes of a conversation based on damage in these types of games. Mechanics should be what you pay attention to. If a player in your group doesn't do mechanics right it does not matter how much damage they can do. (within reason of course.)
How do you get to this point with your opinion? I'm genuinely curious. For most FFXIV basic story content it's just mechanics, but if you want to do top tier content, you need to bring the DPS heat while you do mechanics.
It's both. You need both, you've always needed both to do the most difficult content. To me, a DPS Meter is no different from a mechanic indicator in FFXIV. Need to run to the edges of the arena? Mechanical indicators tell you. Need to see where you can get more damage out to beat hard enrages, or who needs to pick it up to help avoid damage thresholds/healer OOMing? DPS meters tell you.
You're right that if someone just dies they don't do any DPS. But if everyone survives, DPS will be necessarily meaningful unless the content is tuned to the lowest common denominator. Which some content will be, but I'll be disappointed if it's the case for all PvE content.
The only reason someone would bring up the damage meters is to belittle someone for not being as efficient as everyone else at pushing the buttons in the right order or at the right target. So lets focus on what actually matters, the mechanics being done right and keeping a positive atmosphere. telling another player how to do a mechanic is a lot less demeaning than telling them they need to get good at the class they have spent hours upon hours playing.
You can't think that damage output is purely a factor of ilvl in any game. Class execution is always paramount to performance, and if it isn't, then the game is essentially Nonstop Knight, playing for you.
There's a very interesting and unfortunate insecurity players have when it comes to damage meters, and not having them isn't going to address the insecurity nor is it going to automatically breed a positive atmosphere. Someone who is toxic with meters will just find another reason to be toxic. Nothing is solved.
Story time: in Warlords of Draenor, I only really remember one thing. In a pug raid, another warlock saw how much more damage I was doing and asked me how. I walked him through the setup and burn phase, answered his questions, and he thanked me.
One of my friends loved seeing someone with his same spec in WoW pug heroic raids so he could compare overall numbers, drill into the breakdown, learn and improve. They never really talked to each other.
Sometimes people use meters to be toxic, sure. But not always. People also use classes to be toxic, ilvl, and messing up mechanics. Sometimes asking questions gets you toxicity.
So what are we solving exactly by not having a damage meter? You have less data to analyze outcomes in order for... what? People to feel comfortable hiding their performance with false promises that others will magically be nice to them?
If content only requires basic mechanics, it'll be boring. If it requires pushing classes to their limits, logging/meters will be developed whether they are sanctioned or not.
Look, all I am saying is that I played for a few months in final fantasy, did most of the content aside from the extreme versions of the last raids. Almost all of these fights my friend had a dps meter but couldnt say anything about the healer that could be doing damage while also healing or the dude that is just plain not doing his rotation correctly. Instead of focusing on that we were essentially forced to play nice and make sure they followed the mechanics. These people were required a certain Item level to sign up for the dungeons/raids/trails so all we needed from them was to do the mechanics right and not be extremely bad at their class rotations. I find that to be a better atmosphere than a bunch of random pricks comparing dps sizes and belittling those that are not as good.
I said this earlier, it is much easier to discuss with a random player about the mechanics of the boss than it is to teach them how to play the class they think they are good at. Many people don't like it when they are pretty much personally insulted for not doing enough damage with the class they have been playing for who knows how long. Mechanics change from boss to boss so there is leeway and understanding that can be met, making a friendlier atmosphere. Classes are there for good and people in general do not like being corrected on how they play it.
In smaller groups it's much easier to tell intuitively who is falling short AND why.
I think people have been burned by DPS meters because in a smaller group you address the problem directly in context of how it affects the rest of the group and it makes sense. Whereas feedback from someone looking through DPS charts usually becomes a witch hunt because numbers were too low, people's egos get inflated and that breeds a toxic culture of blameshifting.
I'm also aware that this thread is devolving into another DPS meter thread - it might be best to continue this conversation there.
That's why not only the raid lead adresses it. It's the job of the class leads of this guild to keep an eye on their fellow players, as they should be the one who knows what a players is doing incorrectly when playing his specific class.
Classic WoW might not be too applicable, as it is piss easy, but it's sufficient to paint an easy to understand picture:
If you see your average mage throwing a fireball in a classic raid, then its the job of the class lead to spot that and sit that guy down for a talk.
He will play Ashes.
Being forced to play nice sounds fake and terrible to me. Everyone smiling to your face and rolling their eyes behind your back. If you had a healer not doing half his job and a dps underperforming and it was fine, then it sounds like MSQ or daily/weekly reward content, which isn't where meters shine anyway.
If someone has been playing a class for who knows how long, and demonstrably isn't good at it, to me it's toxic for them to get so defensive about it, like your time doesn't matter and they can do whatever they want. If you were playing tennis with someone and all they did was lob it out of bounds, them saying "you can't tell me how to play, I've been playing tennis for years" is incredibly toxic.
It's all varying degrees of toxicity. I think it's wrong to say elitism is the primary source of toxicity. I think instead it's entitlement, and both good and bad players can feel entitled.