Why i will not be playing AoC

Hey Everyone,

I heard about this game recently and there is a ton of good that i saw. Unfortunately as much as i enjoy destroying people in PVP i enjoy PVE more. The answers toward PVE and some of the examples i have seen sound cool but do not fulfill my wants as someone who enjoys PVE and more particularly Raiding. I was really hoping AoC would check all the boxes but it fell short. It checks alot of boxes and even adds boxes. However, this game appears to be falling short on some important points. Its stance towards Addons which is essentially a stance against players who want to make the game better or easier in a sort. I am typically a minimalist in this area so i was not too worried about it. I also think any addon ideas should be brought up now and maybe they can just add those features. An example of a feature i would like to see is a map of sorts you can right strategy on for the team to look at and also be able to mark on. This is now a addon in WoW. I use it a lot because its nice to be able to draw a encounter or upload the map and draw out our strategies. However DPS meters and healing meters have been lumped into that. Its almost a disrespect to someones intelligence to even debate the topic because its essential. Its not even that its just essential but if you don't want to see it so you can immerse yourself into a game. an example would be questing or exploring. Just TURN IT OFF. DPS meters do not have to be displayed 100% of the time. PVE events were just displayed on taking a castle where loot would go to the guild with the most dmg or be given by dmg output yet there is no dps meter. This is honestly a huge let down for them to go over both of these points nearly back to back without notice of the logic contradicting itself. i for one would like a option to hide my UI as well so i can do just that. immerse myself while questing or hanging out at a tavern. I have a feeling class balancing may also be a reason why the dps meter is something the developers are against dps meters. ESO had issues with OP builds plaguing a diverse class selection. They dont have to worry about it if they don't have meters. well not as much anyway. The third issue is more so because i am a community leader and i do not want to be forced to have a particular size community. I have had huge communities and small. I do not want to have to recruit and manage a 40 man raid team or larger. The best example of where a game got it right would be WoW Wrath of the Lich King where they allowed 25 or 10 man raids. Options and scaling works wonders. I understand because i saw more of the game of why the game is being tuned this way. The hope is that there is a huge community in this game. However with its not so friendly PVE content. I think the communities will not meet exceptions at max level. Which will break the meta being created. Things can change as the game is in alpha but from what i am seeing from the small community here and the streams. This game is going to have everything i wish WoW had. However it wont have what WoW has. WoW with all of its faults still has a community and raids with a lot of effort put into them. They have made mistakes with the last expansion but they are also now opening up legacy servers. Its hard from a PVE stand point to pick AoC over TBC or a possible good retail expansion or even WOTLK. PVP is still good in WoW and i enjoy it a lot. I love alot of what i am seeing here however i am getting flash backs of the last WoW killer, the one before that, and that. I think AoC is a step in the right direction. i like the thinking outside of the box and mixing some PVE and PVP.

I may hop into a stream or 2 and check on the development but i think the issues are too deeply placed. Not to mention real feedback is hard to find. People are easily distracted by pretty things and i for better or for worse have a good way of getting to the meat and potatoes.

cheers,
Tarnish
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Comments

  • kesarakkkesarakk Member, Warrior of Old
    I can agree with the 40 man size. I wasn’t a fan of having that being the base size of a raid, rather than having the option of 10 man, which is the flavor of choice for smaller/family/friend guilds. Still, I hope you do come back and see more content to your liking. We need more players who can voice their opinions without trashing everyone around them.

    Good Luck and Happy Gaming Tarnish!
  • So you won't play AoC b/c
    1. No DPS Meters
    2. No UI Addons (before we have any idea what the base UI will entail)
    3. The limited pre-alpha PvE doesn't hold up to your memories of Wrath
    4. And you don't want to be leader of a large community

    I mean...there's about a thousand different threads diving into the pros and cons of DPS Meters, but honestly it comes down to the way modern gamers optimize their characters and Intrepid deciding that it's better for the health of the game as a whole to limit that.

    As for the UI it's way to early for that to be a make or break point as there's still years worth of work being done to everything.

    For the PvE we have no idea what the raids will look like. Wrath raids were fun..but so were Vanilla's before people realized they could literally be done naked.

    Rather than going "I won't play this game" why not just keep checking in over the next 2+ years and seeing what happens because making up your mind now is a little unfair.
  • FoogleFoogle Member
    Farewell, good luck in your future endeavours. Honestly don't see the point in this post, very passive aggressive way to give feedback towards a game that isn't even in it's first full alpha stage yet but no hard feelings. Best of luck with other games :)
  • The most I can really do is point and laugh over the reasons you gave up during alpha. The only one that might have a point on is Raid size. However, 40 man raids worked in WoW pretty well. It was more of a problem when they couldn't keep their numbers up on a server to server basis. However, they also had way too many servers and still do. Their refusal to delete and merge servers is what made 40 man raids impossible, not so much that it's all that hard to get going.

    The cry baby method isn't exactly very persuasive though. People generally look down on that kind of thing so good luck wherever you going.
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  • Hope you find the game for you then. I personally don't understand your post since the game isn't even in alpha yet officially. But hey, whatever floats your boat i guess. Good luck and who knows maybe see you later.
  • Your main 4 complaints are completely opposite for myself and a major reason why I WILL be playing. No dps meter is great and you should really attempt to get your brain away from WoW when thinking of other games. PvE content will be great from what we have seen. We haven't seen much in the way of the UI so how can you fault that right now? If you are not willing to lead a large community, please, watch how I will haha. Not only will my guild make an impact in whichever server we land on but I will play a large role in the community, guild alliances, organized content and much, much more. Not wanting to play a role in the community is EXACTLY what current wow standards are. Utter trash IMO that you can experience all content without moving, or talking to anyone. Just my two cents.
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited August 28
    @Tarnish

    The only real valid complaint in your post is about PvE content and about addons. You won't need addons in this game as the devs have clearly stated that there will be ample of customization elements. As for your idea of being able to write on the map, it isn't that hard to take a screenshot and do that in paint either.

    As for PvE content, we still don't know yet. The devs have stated that they want open world PvE content but they've also said that they only "potentially" want it to be highly contestable (Steven said this during his interview with Asmongold). So if they find out that it isn't fun, they will change it accordingly. Yes PvP is a core element of this game, but I'm sure they know that if they don't make PvE content accessible and fun, then their game will die just like the other MMOs that have come out to contest the top ones. So I highly recommend that even if you're not going to play the game, at least keep up with it as you will never know what might happen because the game is still in pre-alpha.
  • Thank you to those who actually read my entire post. I think i was pretty respectful to the MMO in Alpha. Tarnish out.
  • @Tarnish I felt your post was fairly respectful but you are complaining about a game that has 1.5+ years to go for development and you are saying that the issues that you see are too deeply rooted for you to give it a chance. You are also failing to recognize the reason for not having dps meters. JUST TURNING IT OFF is not the solution for the players that feel a dps meter would force a different community feeling that we want to see in this game. I come from a dps meter background where I have removed players for not being where they should be......now it will be a breath of fresh air to not have that as a tool. A tool that requires every "top tier" guild to use it to measure players. Instead, as a guild leader I have the opportunity to work with the whole raid to figure out what it is we are doing wrong.

    You also fail to see the point of why they have decided on 40 player raids without the option for 10 mans or other variance. This game is bringing back MMO roots of community building and making a name for yourself. Guilds that have 20 people in them and just run 10 player end game content are quite literally one of the biggest fails an MMO can have. They take away from precisely what IS wants out of this game and if you look at current wow now....it's dead because of it.

    I don't see why people think "wow killer" is still a thing. Wow is dead. Addiction is one of the biggest reasons they have subscriptions. The other is nostalgia. Had they not released wow classic, the numbers would be a whole lot different. I tried coming back to current wow and it is such a failed abomination of a game compared to what it used to be. I couldn't play WOW out of spite because they are just capitalizing on that nostalgia to keep their heads afloat. Don't even get me started on the community for blizzard games. Talk about cancer.

    I don't expect a response, just had to clear things up. Have a good one.
  • Personally I'm looking forward to AoC for many of the reasons why you are against it.

    - Absolutely HATE addons because, if you don't have them and your opponent does, you are now at a disadvantage. Not to mention the sheer amount of them. I believe I was running 19 last time I played ESO. :p Plus on patch day you would be crippled without those addons you have become used to for a week, waiting for updates. This way everyone will be on the same level playing field. We all use the same UI for good of for bad. period. If you want something added, give the Devs feedback and they can add it for everyone.

    - As for DPS meters, again I HATE them because they are used as a measure of weather or not you can get into a certain raid or not. This lends itself to cookie cutter builds just to get into said raids. With 64 classes doing so might hurt the viability of a lot of them.

    - Complaining about content with a game that's 2 years out? That's a LONG time to still add things and to be perfectly honest, at this point they should be working on getting the bigger picture right like class skills, combat in general, game nodes, city functionality, etc. LOTS of more meta stuff rather than worry if quest 63 had been debugged yet of if there were enough mobs in area X. Now if we were say 6 months out and this was the case, THEN I would be worried (kind of like where NW is atm)

    - 40 man raids I've not done a ton of myself so I can't speak to the good or bad of it. Maybe there is however time to tweak it down to say 32 max size? Honestly, if this was your only real complaint you never know.

    - And, just for the record, I also hate to be THAT guy but.....the wall of text was very difficult to read. Paragraphs FTW ;)
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  • DrokkDrokk Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited August 28
    You seem pretty against addons. My opinion is that they're cancer in mmos. They essentially play the game for the player. It adds all kinds of variables and factors that turn a game into a calculator. We've seen how that impacts other games, and I don't think it's a good impact.

    I absolutely love the 40 man raids. I want things to feel EPIC. I want chaotic battles with a lot going on. I want to be a part of something big. The smaller it gets the less it is about the experience, and more about perfecting the composition and min/maxing everything down to every little minute detail. That's just not what I'm about.

    Lastly, you said WoW has a community and I spit water on my monitor as I laughed. So thanks for having to go clean that off now. WoW has players, and while not nearly the amount of players it once had, it's still a healthy amount. But a community? Absolutely not. Since that game launched almost every design decision Blizzard has done has contributed to destroying the community. You play now with faceless strangers thanks to crz, cross-realm dungeon finder, lfr, cross-realm bgs, etc, etc. WoW is the quintessential example that convenience is a double-edged sword.

    In any event...cheers. Not every game is for every player.
  • GruntagGruntag Member
    edited August 28
    Foogle wrote: »
    Farewell, good luck in your future endeavours. Honestly don't see the point in this post, very passive aggressive way to give feedback towards a game that isn't even in it's first full alpha stage yet but no hard feelings. Best of luck with other games :)

    agree, silly post.. what was the point?

    OK, got it you are a Wow fanboy...ok cool, well enjoy.
  • DreohDreoh Member
    People always tout this idea of "Just add an option to disable features you don't want", but fail to realize they themselves are their worst enemies in that regard.

    Nobody plays a game with competitive aspects and says "Let me give myself a disadvantage for immersion's sake". They will always check or uncheck all the options that allow them to be on par with everyone else. It's always these same people who, after having things tailored to them complain "Remember the good days when things were actually difficult and required challenge, and things weren't spoonfed to us?"

    I agree 100% with Steven's stance on no Addons, because all the information and utilities you should need should already exist in the game. If anything, any ideas for an addon you might want for utility, like drawing on the map as you said, is something you could and should bring up with the developers and get them to implement it so that EVERYONE has access to such things, not just those who have the addons.

    DPS meters are absolutely not a necessity, but that's my opinion and there's already an enormous thread about that topic.
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  • Bye then.

    Someone just wants to have a tantrum and make sure people see it. And since you were last logged in an hour ago, you haven't left yet. If you are not going to play, why are you still here?
  • NelsonRebelNelsonRebel Member, Leader of Men, Early Alpha One Tester
    Thats okay. This game is a true PvX game and does not cater to any one group.


    You wrote alot but there wasnt much of substance said, since the main things you were against are WHY people want to play this game.


    I wont bash you, but I wont pretend this wasnt a bit silly to exclaim a fairly obvious presentation of the game citing it as your negatives, when they are the exact features that are what drew so many thousands of people here.

  • NelsonRebelNelsonRebel Member, Leader of Men, Early Alpha One Tester
    Dreoh wrote: »
    Nobody plays a game with competitive aspects and says "Let me give myself a disadvantage for immersion's sake". They will always check or uncheck all the options that allow them to be on par with everyone else. It's always these same people who, after having things tailored to them complain "Remember the good days when things were actually difficult and required challenge, and things weren't spoonfed to us?"

    I agree 100% with Steven's stance on no Addons, because all the information and utilities you should need should already exist in the game. If anything, any ideas for an addon you might want for utility, like drawing on the map as you said, is something you could and should bring up with the developers and get them to implement it so that EVERYONE has access to such things, not just those who have the addons.

    DPS meters are absolutely not a necessity, but that's my opinion and there's already an enormous thread about that topic.

    I agree with no addons, they just play the game for you and somehow people find a way to use addons to exploit or cheat. Despite people claims that addons arent influencing what players are able to do in the game, I've seen otherwise all over the internet lol. A 5 minute good search will find you addons/cheat engine that ruin the integrity of games.

    I will say though for competitivnes sake I am one of those masochists that will hamper my own ability for immersion/aesthetics/ or thematic purposes.
  • DreohDreoh Member
    I agree with no addons, they just play the game for you and somehow people find a way to use addons to exploit or cheat. Despite people claims that addons arent influencing what players are able to do in the game, I've seen otherwise all over the internet lol. A 5 minute good search will find you addons/cheat engine that ruin the integrity of games.

    I will say though for competitivnes sake I am one of those masochists that will hamper my own ability for immersion/aesthetics/ or thematic purposes.

    Well true there are always exceptions to the rule in everything lol

    I made sure to specify competitive because I know there's plenty of people (me included) who play immersive modes in casual content, like no fast-travel skyrim runs and stuff.
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  • I will see you in Ashes once the game releases :D
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  • DolyemDolyem Member
    edited August 29
    All I am saying is...just because you are used to addons and dps meters does not mean they are essential for a game. They may be useful but ultimately they make people act like jerks. "YOU DON'T GET THAT ITEM! ITS GIVES 2 MORE DPS TO -random player- WHICH CAN INCREASE OUR CLEAR TIME BY .65487674 SECONDS! NOOB! /gkick" I would rather have a game where people are focused on playing together against the PVE instead of playing against each other while doing PVE. Save that for PVP.
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  • Hello my dude.
    Right before i was watching on youtube the interview from asmongold with steve and i have to admit, i was so impressed with his philosophy and game design choices. I don't care about if a game has dps meters or limited pre alpha PvE (I mean dude the game hasn't even released yet). What i care is if i can have fun and the longevity of the game is guaranteed. Hearing from his experience with other MMO's makes me feel secure and i just want to dive in and see the world he and his team is building. I don't even want to talk about how toxic dps meters can be.
    I'm sure we'll meet in the Alpha because it seems like you really care about this and so do I. I really want this game to release.
    Best of luck for you dude. See ya! sorry for my english :D
  • darthadendarthaden Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited August 29
    I'm way to lazy to read that much complaining
  • George BlackGeorge Black Member
    edited August 29
    I understand people maintaining this topic in the front page by replying, if they share OPs view and want to add their concerns.

    I think it's stupid to say "I wont play a game" instead of "I will participate in development".

    Topics like these should dissapear in the 4th page so people, if you agree, stop maintaining it. Ty, Im out.
  • mrwafflesmrwaffles Member, Leader of Men, Early Alpha One Tester
    This is the mentality of the majority of Blizzard and wow fan base IMO. Talk about what they want, why they should be listened too, and when they don't don't get what they want they complain and then leave to go back to wow...

    Everyone keeps talking about this game being in alpha but even if it wasn't self absorbed people like the OP are going to come and go and have been for the past 3 years.

    Nothing will ever compare to our first mmo love and all the amazing experiences it gave us. What we can do is go out on a limb and give AoC a chance and have some fun doing it.
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  • mrwafflesmrwaffles Member, Leader of Men, Early Alpha One Tester
    Topics like these should dissapear in the 4th page so people, if you agree, stop maintaining it. Ty, Im out.

    Normally I would agree but strangely I want it to stay in the front page. Flip the script and let all IS staff see the majority, and I do mean Majority, of the community doesn't agree with the dribble and we are all patiently waiting to see Vara with our own eyes.

    (Since everyone else is doing it)
    Waffles out
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  • SamsonSamson Member
    mrwaffles wrote: »
    Topics like these should dissapear in the 4th page so people, if you agree, stop maintaining it. Ty, Im out.

    Normally I would agree but strangely I want it to stay in the front page. Flip the script and let all IS staff see the majority, and I do mean Majority, of the community doesn't agree with the dribble and we are all patiently waiting to see Vara with our own eyes.

    (Since everyone else is doing it)
    Waffles out

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  • See ya @Tarnish
    I think it is too early to judge a game during its infancy, but that is your decision to make and not mine. ^^

    At the same time, i have some bones to pick with you about one of your statements:
    "WoW with all of its faults still has a community and raids with a lot of effort put into them. They have made mistakes with the last expansion but they are also now opening up legacy servers. Its hard from a PVE stand point to pick AoC over TBC or a possible good retail expansion or even WOTLK."

    1. WoW's community is in shambles since they implemented the raid/dungeon and server overarching groupfinder. People hop in and out of groups without saying a word, running from world quest to world quest. There is no communication between players anymore... EVEN IN DUNGEONS.
    2. Legacy servers were not a win for Blizzard, but for the last remnants of the old school community. I still remember them saying that we dont know what we want, and that Legacy servers would die out immediately, do you?
    3. You should not compare Ashes, a game in its infancy, to an expansion of a game that was 3 years old at the time were you draw a comparison... comparing Ashes and WoW AT ALL is a bit much, because they dont try to emmulate WoW. They are their own thing and try to revive old school MMORPGs, not the casual grey mess that WoW has become nowadays.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    I have to say, I disagree with the OP as well (which will surprise a lot of people here, I'm sure).

    What I will say is that his opinion is shared among several dozen top end and almost top end guilds that I know of, and no doubt many more that I don't. The perception of Ashes as a game that isn't going to have good PvE content at the top end will keep thousands of players out of this game if not addressed before the game goes in to beta 2 (essentially the cut off point for top end guilds).

    However, there is still so long to go before the game releases that it is simply too early to make the call as to whether the game is worth playing or not.
  • WarthWarth Member
    @Tarnish

    See you, your post could have used a little better readability.
    I do respect the fact, that you are leaving the feedback in a constructive way, without adopting some stupid thought process of trying to make them change the fundamentals of the game they design just because you don't like them.

    I hope, that maybe at launch you can find enjoyment in the game, whether you align with all their decisions or not.
  • I will bet any amount of money this person has a “ im quitting wow today” and this is why post on the WoW forums
  • WoW seems like the perfect game for you. AoC is not trying to compete directly with WoW's everyone-gets-a-trophy system. In AoC, the depth of having to outplay not only static PvE content but also players in a completely open world, creates more memorable and dynamic moments than watching a DPS meter to gauge if you will be able to kill a dungeon boss that you've killed a thousand times before. If you only enjoy games with static PvE content, then stop criticizing games that are different, and just play one of the thousands of games that already caters to that.
This discussion has been closed.