Why i will not be playing AoC

Hey Everyone,

I heard about this game recently and there is a ton of good that i saw. Unfortunately as much as i enjoy destroying people in PVP i enjoy PVE more. The answers toward PVE and some of the examples i have seen sound cool but do not fulfill my wants as someone who enjoys PVE and more particularly Raiding. I was really hoping AoC would check all the boxes but it fell short. It checks alot of boxes and even adds boxes. However, this game appears to be falling short on some important points. Its stance towards Addons which is essentially a stance against players who want to make the game better or easier in a sort. I am typically a minimalist in this area so i was not too worried about it. I also think any addon ideas should be brought up now and maybe they can just add those features. An example of a feature i would like to see is a map of sorts you can right strategy on for the team to look at and also be able to mark on. This is now a addon in WoW. I use it a lot because its nice to be able to draw a encounter or upload the map and draw out our strategies. However DPS meters and healing meters have been lumped into that. Its almost a disrespect to someones intelligence to even debate the topic because its essential. Its not even that its just essential but if you don't want to see it so you can immerse yourself into a game. an example would be questing or exploring. Just TURN IT OFF. DPS meters do not have to be displayed 100% of the time. PVE events were just displayed on taking a castle where loot would go to the guild with the most dmg or be given by dmg output yet there is no dps meter. This is honestly a huge let down for them to go over both of these points nearly back to back without notice of the logic contradicting itself. i for one would like a option to hide my UI as well so i can do just that. immerse myself while questing or hanging out at a tavern. I have a feeling class balancing may also be a reason why the dps meter is something the developers are against dps meters. ESO had issues with OP builds plaguing a diverse class selection. They dont have to worry about it if they don't have meters. well not as much anyway. The third issue is more so because i am a community leader and i do not want to be forced to have a particular size community. I have had huge communities and small. I do not want to have to recruit and manage a 40 man raid team or larger. The best example of where a game got it right would be WoW Wrath of the Lich King where they allowed 25 or 10 man raids. Options and scaling works wonders. I understand because i saw more of the game of why the game is being tuned this way. The hope is that there is a huge community in this game. However with its not so friendly PVE content. I think the communities will not meet exceptions at max level. Which will break the meta being created. Things can change as the game is in alpha but from what i am seeing from the small community here and the streams. This game is going to have everything i wish WoW had. However it wont have what WoW has. WoW with all of its faults still has a community and raids with a lot of effort put into them. They have made mistakes with the last expansion but they are also now opening up legacy servers. Its hard from a PVE stand point to pick AoC over TBC or a possible good retail expansion or even WOTLK. PVP is still good in WoW and i enjoy it a lot. I love alot of what i am seeing here however i am getting flash backs of the last WoW killer, the one before that, and that. I think AoC is a step in the right direction. i like the thinking outside of the box and mixing some PVE and PVP.

I may hop into a stream or 2 and check on the development but i think the issues are too deeply placed. Not to mention real feedback is hard to find. People are easily distracted by pretty things and i for better or for worse have a good way of getting to the meat and potatoes.

cheers,
Tarnish

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BobzUrUncle

@Tarnish Why are you still here? You said that you were out. Always fun to have someone post a 'good riddance' thread and then come back to it!

nidriks

I really thought some of us might have gotten through to @Tarnish

Speaking for myself, I only wanted this community to grow stronger. Not that I'm trying to come accross as some sort of community hero, or anything.

Ashes won't be for everyone, but this desperate need of some to try and change what this game has promised to be since day one is rather narking. I backed Ashes with my hard earnt money ebcause I finally saw a game that could provide something I have wanted from an MMO for years. A game to feel at home in and not rushed though dull and uninspiring content level after level. I want a social experience. If I want to level to the end game by myself I'll play Divinity. MMOs should be played together - challenged and thrilled by deep content and a need to be united.

WoW might have been better at the above than pretty much any of the new breed of MMOs, but it was ultimately the game that changed how MMOs were. WoW made progression easier than the likes of Everquest and Ultima.

I don't want to see huge inspiration from WoW in Ashes. I don't want 25 abilioty bars and numerous addons to control everything from my dps to my in game food intake.

What next? A Pizza delivery app?

I'm not saying I don't believe the story Tarnish gave us. Maybe he was a big time raid leader. I've seen no evidence for it other than what he has said. I do believe raids will be a thing in Ashes though, but having the raids you want to do be available to do will take effort. More effort than turning up at a zone entryway in WoW ready to take on content that you have spent a few hours researching.

Before you can do that Ashes raid you'll need to make sure it's available. Your guild will have to secure its holdings and fight off challengers. You'll need diplomacy to gather allies. You'll need your crafters to work hard to make the best gear to aid your challenge in the raid areas. You'll need to support those crafters to guide the caravans that will bring precious resources home. Your leadership skills will be more than just guiding your friends through a dungeon. You'll be a proper leader.

Now is it just me that to whom that sounds so much better than doing the same raid over and over?

Change your world rather than just doing the challenges the developers set you.

Anyway, unless you woke and defeated The Sleeper, I don't care what raid highlights you acheived. Kerafyrm was challenge!

Inixia

nidriks wrote: »

What next? A Pizza delivery app?

Its funny you should say this, in early EQ2 I think you were actually able to enter a /pizza command to get a pizza hut order setup.

nidriks

Inixia wrote: »

nidriks wrote: »

What next? A Pizza delivery app?

Its funny you should say this, in early EQ2 I think you were actually able to enter a /pizza command to get a pizza hut order setup.

I know. That was my reference. I remember the day they announced it. We didn't believe SOE.

They only went an' bloody did it...

unknown

This content has been removed.

Grievousness

BobzUrUncle wrote: »

@Tarnish Why are you still here? You said that you were out. Always fun to have someone post a 'good riddance' thread and then come back to it!

Why are you here?
If you cannot read no point in using this forum.
He already answered that once:

Tarnish wrote: »

Samson wrote: »

I thought this guy said he was out....?

i said i would be keeping my eye out for updates and would pop in. got anything to add to the discussion?

@BobzUrUncle
Are you secretly trying to promote dps meters by proving you can be toxic without them?

Dreoh

Grievousness wrote: »

Are you secretly trying to promote dps meters by proving you can be toxic without them?

That's the 5head play

Tarnish

halbarz wrote: »

Bit late to the discussion but I do want to point out that WoW's large player base is not due it being a good game because let's be honest it is flawed as hell.

WoW is popular because it caters to a lot of people, to have decent gear you do not have to be actually good at the game. The systems are extremely simplistic and the player base is large because it was the first MMO to really go big in the early/mid 2000. People play the game because it is for most people their first real MMO. it is familiar, it's a safe space you can say, and again it is not very in-depth. (system / feature-wise)
WoW does not have content that is that difficult either, Mythic+ is challenging but also there it is WoW ... there is only so much they can do when it comes down to creating content ... (age of the game and etc)

Player numbers are of course important but let's be honest since WoW released it has not had any real big competition. The attempts of Swtor and etc were well ... sad. FF14 has a big IP carrying the game as well, the same goes for ESO + it's a different style of MMO in a weird sense.

In my personal opinion WoW and AoC have little in common and trying to compare them is like you would compare Archeage with WoW, it makes no sense.
I personally believe that games such as Gw2, ESO, maybe even BDO have a lot more to lose with AoC coming out in a few years then WoW. These games have not that much in common either but they have an audience that fits the "profile'' better. (large scale PvP, more build complexity, etc) Again this is my personal opinion.

Do not take this the wrong way but it sounds like AoC might not be your cup of tea. I would advise to follow the development and decide later on

I personally do not understand the need for add-ons, you clearly claim to have experience so, in my opinion, you should be skilled enough to have the insight and knowledge to have some kind of a headstart vs. a new player.

i agree with with your point of view, however i think AoC has potential to revolutionize the MMO community. It has the PVP and crafting has alot of potential however i have no had the opportunity to fully go through it all but what i have heard has sounded really cool. If the game can get PVE right. I think alot of WoW's communities are wishing something better was out there because of some of the mistakes that were a lil too predicable and should never of happened. I have a huge love hate relationship with WoW that really started in Cata when my guild was hitting its prime and decided to jump ship at the end of the expansion for SWTOR. I think more players are open minded to alot. i know there is a community that absolutely hates to PVP and honestly sucks at it and yearn for the community chat and more social elements out side of PVE raids. I think AoC has a potential to maintain alot of players with some good PVE content. PVE content does require some basic necessities such as a dps meter so we can work together. It requires proper reward structures and I have a ton of examples from throughout the years and will be making it my next big post on the dps meter thread if i feel it will get the proper attention. DPS meters do not mean Toxicity and elitism. I have seen so many people linking the 2. I understand why as i did not fully understand meters or logs until i learned from a really good guild who mentored me. I can hopefully show this community the other side.Most players are casual and have never seen the side of the coin i hope to bring to AoC. Thank you for displaying your ideas and opinions in a positive manner. It is hard to have a different opinion here although i am a pretty high level player so i am used to my methods to not always be seen for their intentions. My results are consistent and valuable however. I would also like to make this clear, Addons are to build on top of the game, Which means this is a good time to add ideas and features now so that addons are not necessary in the future. Eventually there may be a need but if the game comes out with everything the community wants and needs. Addons will come much later or to fill a void of something overlooked.

Cheers!

-Tarnish

Tarnish

bloodprophet wrote: »

Looking back through the wiki and watching the videos this seems promising.
22:24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJbyxRdB6dE&feature=youtu.be&t=22m24s

thanks for sharing that video, is there a more current video? i saw that was from june 2018 and i liked everything i heard there. My questions i have are still unanswered but the info would certainly need to come from them. I have mentioned and will mention again i have only been looking into AoC within the last week or so. Maybe a little longer now. My goal was to give a answer for some friends on it as they saw interest and i did too. However some answer such as for a dps meter sounded horribly wrong and i have no issue finding PVP content where the PVE is harder to find info on. Maybe this info is in older videos and they are not revealing the raid info because it is lore involved as most raids are. I did like that the mechanics change depending on the world progression.

Tarnish

Inixia wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

Looking back through the wiki and watching the videos this seems promising.

Thanks for linking this!
I like the idea of variable boss moods and mechanics to keep things fresh.

I don't like as much the idea of variable boss difficulty unless its clearly flagged because I think killing a boss should mean something objectively recognizable. Otherwise its kind of like, 'so what, you killed the red dragon, hasn't everyone?'oh but this instance of it was especially hard'. Doesn't have the same impact you know?
That said, I'm just putting that out there, I'm still missing a lot of details on how it will work that may change my mind, and I don't expect the development team to change that aspect at this point, and sometimes its good when they listen to their own instincts instead of the forums. I'm still excited for the game. But what can I say, my own personal stance is that I like raid bosses to have clear difficulties so that getting to see and beat them acts as a reward for objective raid progression.

Yeah i also liked the bosses changing by environment. It definitely will be different and the glory from downing a max difficulty boss will likely change until we either know the new definition or discover what is truly difficult. I also hope the rewards are increased as well by difficulty of the boss. there may be a exploit to prog a node to access the raid and farm it like crazy so by the time it is super difficult it will be easier with better gear. This is where the reward needs to fit the difficulty yet still give us a reward worth spending the time to achieve or attempt.

Tarnish

Dreoh wrote: »

How about we argue for engaging and skillful challenges and fights instead of arguing for tank and spanks where achieving a bare minimum dps is make or break for victory where a dps meter is wanted?

I am hoping that is what we are looking for. If we do not need DPS meters the content is likely not worthy enough to entertain higher end PVE players and we will be forced to put up with WoW and all of its strange choices or raid in older content or newer MMOS that get PVE right. I like a lot of the ideas presented by this game so i am crossing my fingers they hit the mark on PVE.

Tarnish

Leroher wrote: »

@Tarnish

The thing is that you are not saying "some things I want in the game" you said "why I won't play this game" (in a game in prealpha), that's the first thing you should change.

Second, instead of going to the megathread about DPS meter (for example), you say that's a problem of the game and you are not accepting arguments deffending that. This is multiboxing and calling some dev decisions (dpsmeter, addons, etc) "problems" or "flaws", they got their reasons, go check those threads.

Third, instead of making a quick and summarized post, you make it long and boring to read, I suggest you to make it shorter next time.

P.D.: I will say again that stuff about changing "problem" to "I would like it to be this way" when talking about dev decisions and not real problems, it will make the rest of the people more accessible and "less angry" while reading your post.

I want to do more than summarize so i have been hoping for specific topics to break down in great detail, i did see multi boxers and DPS meters. Multi boxers i think should just be banned. There is a lot of potential exploits that could occur and id rather not find out which ones work and which ones dont. i want natural markets and people leveling as intended.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

lmfao
"Take the pros we have learned from other games and make an ORIGINAL game."
That is an oxymoron.

No it isn't.

You are able to take nothing other than aspects from other games and combine them in ways that have not been done before, and still come up with something original.

Also, you seem to be suggesting that Intrepid should simply ignore everything good that other games have done. This seems to be an odd position to take.

Tarnish

Jet wrote: »

I'm sure it's been said but its not even in A1 dude.

I like that there won't be addons, it will force people to play the game and just enjoy it instead of this toxic elitist bs. You even see it on basic games like classic WoW where its all about the numbers when they have a 1-2 button rotation and spend hours getting world buffs. Just look forward to enjoying a game instead of min maxxing. if you see someone standing in the fire then you know they're either new or oblivious. You will judge people based on different things.

My experience comes from min maxing well. Numbers tell a story. I dont think we should be lumping in DPS meters with addons and i dont think addons should be needed right away if we as the community and the devs actually create a complete game. Addons are created to fill a gap where something is missing or needs improvement. They add something that is missing or give qaulity of life changes. i do not agree with all addons or even know if we should have them. I do think there are some things the game should have for PVE content atleast and that is Strategy maps/meters so you can properly draw out strategies for PVP or PVE. Exorsus raid tools has that in WoW now. The game should have marks aswell for marking targets, however i hope that is something they already planned on having.

Great Brae

Tarnish wrote: »

Hey Everyone,

I heard about this game recently and there is a ton of good that i saw. Unfortunately as much as i enjoy destroying people in PVP i enjoy PVE more. The answers toward PVE and some of the examples i have seen sound cool but do not fulfill my wants as someone who enjoys PVE and more particularly Raiding. I was really hoping AoC would check all the boxes but it fell short. It checks alot of boxes and even adds boxes. However, this game appears to be falling short on some important points. Its stance towards Addons which is essentially a stance against players who want to make the game better or easier in a sort. I am typically a minimalist in this area so i was not too worried about it. I also think any addon ideas should be brought up now and maybe they can just add those features. An example of a feature i would like to see is a map of sorts you can right strategy on for the team to look at and also be able to mark on. This is now a addon in WoW. I use it a lot because its nice to be able to draw a encounter or upload the map and draw out our strategies. However DPS meters and healing meters have been lumped into that. Its almost a disrespect to someones intelligence to even debate the topic because its essential. Its not even that its just essential but if you don't want to see it so you can immerse yourself into a game. an example would be questing or exploring. Just TURN IT OFF. DPS meters do not have to be displayed 100% of the time. PVE events were just displayed on taking a castle where loot would go to the guild with the most dmg or be given by dmg output yet there is no dps meter. This is honestly a huge let down for them to go over both of these points nearly back to back without notice of the logic contradicting itself. i for one would like a option to hide my UI as well so i can do just that. immerse myself while questing or hanging out at a tavern. I have a feeling class balancing may also be a reason why the dps meter is something the developers are against dps meters. ESO had issues with OP builds plaguing a diverse class selection. They dont have to worry about it if they don't have meters. well not as much anyway. The third issue is more so because i am a community leader and i do not want to be forced to have a particular size community. I have had huge communities and small. I do not want to have to recruit and manage a 40 man raid team or larger. The best example of where a game got it right would be WoW Wrath of the Lich King where they allowed 25 or 10 man raids. Options and scaling works wonders. I understand because i saw more of the game of why the game is being tuned this way. The hope is that there is a huge community in this game. However with its not so friendly PVE content. I think the communities will not meet exceptions at max level. Which will break the meta being created. Things can change as the game is in alpha but from what i am seeing from the small community here and the streams. This game is going to have everything i wish WoW had. However it wont have what WoW has. WoW with all of its faults still has a community and raids with a lot of effort put into them. They have made mistakes with the last expansion but they are also now opening up legacy servers. Its hard from a PVE stand point to pick AoC over TBC or a possible good retail expansion or even WOTLK. PVP is still good in WoW and i enjoy it a lot. I love alot of what i am seeing here however i am getting flash backs of the last WoW killer, the one before that, and that. I think AoC is a step in the right direction. i like the thinking outside of the box and mixing some PVE and PVP.

I may hop into a stream or 2 and check on the development but i think the issues are too deeply placed. Not to mention real feedback is hard to find. People are easily distracted by pretty things and i for better or for worse have a good way of getting to the meat and potatoes.

cheers,
Tarnish

Please reframe from making run along paragraphs, it makes things hard to read.

Maezriel wrote: »

So you won't play AoC b/c
[1] No DPS Meters [2] No UI Addons (before we have any idea what the base UI will entail) [3] The limited pre-alpha PvE doesn't hold up to your memories of Wrath [4] And you don't want to be leader of a large community

I mean...there's about a thousand different threads diving into the pros and cons of DPS Meters, but honestly it comes down to the way modern gamers optimize their characters and Intrepid deciding that it's better for the health of the game as a whole to limit that.

As for the UI it's way to early for that to be a make or break point as there's still years worth of work being done to everything.

For the PvE we have no idea what the raids will look like. Wrath raids were fun..but so were Vanilla's before people realized they could literally be done naked.

Rather than going "I won't play this game" why not just keep checking in over the next 2+ years and seeing what happens because making up your mind now is a little unfair.

Quoting this for ease of points this thread seems to exist for

[1] This game is more targeted to be a mix of action rpg elements as well as the traditional tab target. Dps meters would be pointless espaically when most of the content can Dodge (tfs piccolo scream).

[2] I have mixed feelings about addons, it really depends on the game for it. I will have to wait and see what the final product looks like to judge it.

[3] Alpha and beta's are for testing, they wouldn't even have the whole game in it. Be patiant to judge when the game get's closer to the final product.

[4] They want there to be plenty of things to do without being a leader, and you have the choice of not joining any larger communities, so what's the point of this part of the original post?

If you want a legitamate complaint, complain about players being able to steal stuff from you with the stance of "pvp", as that is technically greifing, which leads to nothing but toxic behavior.

Yes I know about the curruption system, and no I don't beleive it will solve anything since systems can and had been shown to be abused and ppl still get away with it.

Other then that, I see allot of potential in this game if made right, the node system is interesting, the castle seiges would be epic fights, the dungeon unlocks I would like to see playeed out, but the class system... that is where I feel the game will shine the most and should be the advertised part of the game.

Dreoh

@Tarnish Please for the love of god format your responses into nice and comprehensive soundbites, nobody wants to read huge blocks of text, it's actually extremely tedious.

nidriks

Dreoh wrote: »

@Tarnish Please for the love of god format your responses into nice and comprehensive soundbites, nobody wants to read huge blocks of text, it's actually extremely tedious.

But he's so knowledgeable. He doesn't have time to format. He has his knowledge to get across

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/247410/#Comment_247410
For those of you who do not know, I have raided in multiple MMOs at the highest difficulty and have been top US/World/server level player for 15 years and have been playing for 20+ years.
####
This is for the Devs to hopefully read coming from someone with a lot of experience in PVE content.

I read that post properly at work last night and was left speechless. I've been playing MMOs, mostly PvE, for near 20 years myself. I might not have been a "top level" raider, but I've done group content of all levels throughout those near 20 years. I'd never hope to come across as full of myself as this guy.

I came to this thread looking to help the guy. To explain that there was more to this game than he was seeing, that there was a community here and if he believed himself such a good leader he could do more than lead a raid. I thought someone might be able to convince him there was more to a good MMO than a dps meter, and that addons to fix a game are not needed if the game is good to start with.

I've started to wonder if he's not just here for the kicks. I want this community to be welcoming, but some people you just can't help.

OldManCrow

Jeebus, what a thread.

Hi im new here!

I can't believe I read all that...

Aardvark

Why the need to post a 4 page essay that you are leaving ?

Dreoh

Aardvark wrote: »

Why the need to post a 4 page essay that you are leaving ?

Because he's not leaving, he's just being manipulative. Like a significant other who tells you if you leave them or don't do what they want they're gonna kill themselves.

"If you don't improve your game to suit my needs I'm gonna leave!"

Child Item