Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
1. I'd say having to dodge constantly, instead of absorbing and mitigating damage through different abilities (tab-target) is removing key features. I don't wanna go and read through the whole argument, but my point is if if action-combat was so great, why would you need to remove any features from it during raids?
2. And that's the reason I prefer tab-targeting over action combat. It's more fun to me, not because of the combat itself, but because of what it enables. Theorycrafting, making tons of different builds that use different abilities and passives, relaxing gameplay without needing to be on the edge constantly, having different unique ability combinations and interactions, being able to mitigate damage by popping a shield or by a certain mechanic (Allods Online Paladin Barrier for example - dmg is stored in a barrier before reducing your hp, you use skills to reduce damage in those barriers) etc. etc. Not all of these are tied to tab-targeting or even combat itself necessarily, yet I haven't experienced those things in action games the same way I've experienced them in tab-targeting games. I still don't think you completely grasp this point, because I keep repeating it over and over again. Just because action combat is more fun to you, doesn't mean it's the case for everyone. And I'll even agree that it can be a lot of fun, but again, I view MMORPGs in a certain way, and action-combat in a lot of cases doesn't fit in that view.
3. Because it's usually the most optimal way to play, you want to actively dodge stuff and exploit the combat system to maximum, you want to use every tool you've been given.
I simply haven't experienced this level of customization in an action-combat MMORPG, there simply isn't this much stuff centered around your build, abilities, passives, gear, etc. You aren't relying on your passives and combos that boost your shields and resistances to tank stuff, instead you are relying on actively dodging or blocking, and in most cases tanking doesn't even exist in those games (BDO doesn't have tanks/tanking afaik). And I am basing my arguments mostly against BDO, as it is praised as having "the best" combat.
How utterly obnoxious...
The entire point of BACKLINE is that you can't be HIT, isn't it?
Dashing up perfectly is about 'not dashing when there is the possibility that you will take damage or have to cancel the healing to survive'.
What games do you guys even play, seriously, are you just trying to troll me?
Dude. Being at the front isnt a death sentence the tanks right there, not dead if you want to heal him.... What games have you been playing? I dont imagine a wizard in a cloak is barreling into hell fire to fondle his dwarf tank. If you are a front line healer you are probably spec'd into some survival stats.....
The fact that i agreed to what you said but made a snarky comment about the fact that you act like you're some sort of super human for healing a target in melee range and should be crowned for pressing a button.... you've got to be the one trolling here
Ok yeah nvm. I can only conclude that you don't actually play enough Action Games for this to make sense. Maybe Action MMOs since they tend to be easier.
I would also assume you don't raid either just from this response, and you did specifically mention playing ESO and not even needing any mana management.
If the 'raids' contain 'no mana management' and 'dashing up to the tank at the wrong time' is NOT a death sentence or at least a massive MP cost that would have been optimal to avoid by not being hit, that's not Raid level content to me.
I try really hard to not just assume that people that make these arguments are super casual and only play easy games, but this is increasingly the only conclusion I can come to.
I'll aim for that top 8%, and you can backline it and hope that Intrepid's design for top end raids lets this just work.
Not going to do a giant post just do a long story short. If the comment was I haven't seen that in action yet but I hope or would like to see complex mechanics with action style game, it be a different convo. It is because it was said Its impossible to ever do action combat on high end raid. Action combat isn't just dodging, and you can have dodge mechanics in a raid. I liek tons of stats in my mmo as well and something i also find is lacking in action mmorpgs and there is no reason they can't include it.
Unsure where this random information came from removing mechanics because it is action based, don't believe a single person has said that in the thread.
People will stand guard at the gate, it is what it is.
I'll take it.
Healing Shiv +11 OE.
Here is whats great about this. If i am a casual, and your little figure of me in your head is correct, then what intrepid's designs for that top 8% bullshit doesnt matter at all to me, as you will be slaving away doing it for me.
Ashes isnt every other MMO. The end game isnt everything in ashes. I dont plan on rushing to max level, and trying to be competitive out the gate, because i dont care for that. I want the whole experience of ashes to be enjoyable. Not just the 5 top level raids. I would RATHER everything else in the game be better, than the top level raids. Id rather have something interesting to do for months, instead of 6 raids to grind forever. If you are really here, arguing for action combat just to experience top level raids and nothing else in ashes, i dont think you know much about the world yet.
As a designer, you have to understand why claiming something is impossible because of what another game did is illogical.
If you don't want a class cheesing a mechanic then don't let them cheese the mechanic... Maybe you could give an example of what you are thinking about because that comment confused me.
In the rest of your post, I don't understand the point you are trying to argue besides the balance of tab and action abilities in ashes, which i don't think is relevant. Not only am i just talking about action combat in general but in ashes, i don't think fights will be designed differently based on preferred combat style.
What are you trying to get at?
I honestly agree with you but I don't have the same goals as you.
I would hope for everyone to have a chance to experience everything in such a great game and enjoy it. I dunno if it is hard to believe, but I care a LOT about other people, people I don't know, and people who might not know what there is out there to enjoy.
If Ashes makes no top-end content, and it's all just politics, PvP, and World Bosses, at the top, I'll take it.
If Ashes makes a game where only I and others like me can do it and you and everyone like you who (for example) hates Action Combat healing gets relegated to 'well there's lots of other things to enjoy', then I will both 'be among the best Raiders' and also be upset that they were not able to deliver something that you (or someone who is similar to you but actually cares) could enjoy.
But it is true that if the majority opinion is just 'Yeah I don't care this seems too hard to be fun anyway' then I'll just ignore it like I do in the genre of game I play more now.
If you aren't trying to be competitive, if you don't care about the top level raids, and somehow still concluded from this that I 'want Action Combat above all else', then there's nothing to say.
As a designer, I am telling you that claiming something is impossible because you know enough about the limitations of the thing you study and design is the literal definition of logical.
This stance is almost unbelievable. Logic is specifically 'conclusions following priors using a system to understand them'. Logical deductions are not guaranteed to be facts and do not have to be facts, they are the way you work out what is most likely to be true and how you can work around it.
Since my claims have priors and yours don't (at the moment, I will be glad if you bring them), the burden of 'logicality' here is not on me.
But a more serious question. Are you one of those people who will actually go 'I think it is possible' when the consensus of those who do something for a living is that it isn't? I am very aware that such people exist, I've met CEOs like that. They're no fun. Also they ruin themselves.
My point being that I don't expect any 'level of person' to be immune to this. I've worked directly for 'that guy', a person who doesn't even write code and insists to programmers 'This should be possible it seems so easy'. If you're in that camp, so be it. I personally have been in this industry (not game dev directly) long enough to never assume that even the top of a multimillion dollar company has any capacity for using reason in this way. I hope you can forgive me for similarly not assuming it about you.
I dont know if we've had the same conversation somehow....
I think hybrid is best. Because it gives the most options to players, and i think it allows everyone to tailer their experience to what they want of the game. Ive given a few reasons why.
You ask, should my melee range heals be better than you because im the best player, and i can walk "perfectly" im being snarky again because you seem to have this weird attitude.
I agree, within reason.
You take a hostile stance, and blame me not understanding on the fact that i must be a casual.
I point out that the overall game is more important than the top level content that will only be played by oh so many great and powerful gamers like yourself.
And you say there is nothing left to discuss, without ever puting forth a counter argument or opinion.
I mean yeah, its like trying to talk to a badger, who is just so proud that he knows how to hold a controller....
Again being snarky because i just dont know what the hell your problem is
There must be a reason for why those things usually aren't included though. If you can just stack up a bunch of tank stats, use passives and shields to further boost your defenses, then...you wont have to dodge or do anything other than keep aggro, and you will just rely on being tanky, and your healer keeping you alive.
There must be a reason why these games are often more shallow when it comes to this stuff, rather than simply being "devs haven't thought of adding it".
The thing about removing mechanics is on the last 2 pages. It's not necessarily about removing mechanics, but about having different encounters and ignoring certain mechanics depending on the encounter. Primarily about action combat in tab-target encounters and how certain action combat mechanics would be useless essentially, or not used (which I for some reason translated as them being removed).
I'm always snarky, I find people incredibly frustrating because they don't track the conversations they jump into, yet I try not to just ignore them.
The current form of this discussion was about raid content.
You said things and then claimed 'well I think the rest of the game is more important than the raid content anyway'.
Of course there's nothing left to discuss, you weren't even trying to have the same discussion in the first place. Why would I try to come up with a counterargument to that statement?
Perfectly balanced hybrid would be great. We agree.
1. Are you the type that generally reacts quickly and then expands on it later?
2. Given that it happened THIS time, was there a specific reason why I was supposed to take your responses more 'nicely/whole' than they were in their original forms?
I'm absolutely good with ditching any animosity and updating my model of you to be 'respond to you slower once you've had time to decide if you actually want to add to a post'.
Some people aren't built the same. Same people years ago would have thought it was impossible to be sending rockets to other planets and such. Not all designers are the same at the end of the day, some don't have that desire to push the limits of their own designs and create something new. One of the reasons why the mmo genre has been stagnating. Rather then tackle challenges its easier to copy what someone else did that was popular.
Im type #1 all day every day.... i have dyslexia so when i complete a thought, i post it, and immediately edit it and reread it for mistakes, and almost always continue further
Then I apologize to you entirely for getting into this state. idk if it affected you but I will absolutely admit that it completely annoyed me, and therefore you got those reactions.
I would like to have a more civil disagreement on 'the meaning of the difficulty implied by having to dash around to heal', but I also don't need to engage on it.
So for you if you care and anyone else, the other part of 'dash up perfectly' is that if this is my main healing skill (for some reason) and there is damage to two different people who are physically distant from each other, I perceive that there is a meaningful difference in difficulty and risk to heal both those people using "Close Range Heal" vs "Long Range Tab Target Heal".
I would like the option to take that risk and get very good at doing so. I would also like this to be rewarding enough that it is worth risking doing it even though obviously sometimes it will fail and lead to suboptimal outcomes.
I would like this option to be one that is not a terrible idea/death sentence in top-end raids.
As you said, you did agree that whatever balance was required to make it so, was fine with you, and I reacted to the comment about 'walking being hard for me' and did not address your stance of agreement. For that, I can only offer to be more mindful of your response style.
It is a lot more work for developers to do and money is king at the end of the day. Trying to do high end action pve content and pvp content as well, with all the stats and design and action mobility. It is a lot for a designer to be able to handle as you have to balance it for everything. Its more work on all departments which means it cost more money as well. But to the developer that does it, even in a hybrid form I think that has giant potential. Though we will see what happens with ashes as it will be the game that does have action combat as well.
One of my other issues is if people think the pve content is too easy or not mechanic heavy enough and blame action combat. AoC is trying to accomplish a lot, heavy PvP and PvE, its normal to think both them will suffer a bit compared to a experience more catered to one over the other.
In order to push limits, it helps to have a real understanding of what they are.
My phones nearly dead so this will probably be it from me today but, yeah.
Low range action target heals, that are more of a cone, that select the target in your cone, i have no problem with, and should be potent due to its range. My problem with action targeted heals, are alot of them are blanket heals, that auto target party within range, or nearest ally, or things like that, and those mindless press a single button heals, i dont see a huge place for. So most single target ranged heals being tab targeted and "melee" heals being an action target narrow cone, and group heals being action target "pool" reticles or tab target arch to nearest allies within range. Makes sence to me.
Yep, it's a lot more work, which is why it's easier to implement it with a tab-targeting system, that can be made good and not boring...or a hybrid system.
So imagine they can't have both, which one would you prefer?
1. Having a really in depth class/gear/stat system that allows for a lot of customization, with high end raid content, but with tab-targeting
vs
2. Having, in your opinion, great combat that is action-combat, but without that much depth and complexity.
I know what I would pick.
I don't think action-combat is necessarily bad for endgame PvE, again Lost Ark is a good example (but again it's top-down and it doesn't feel like an MMORPG). But there are certain things that just don't work at all or don't work like they do in tab-targeting games, and we've touched upon one of those things which is tanking. In Lost Ark you also don't have tanks, a lot of bosses move around a lot (honestly WAAAAY too much, to the point you spend half the time just chasing them around).
Honestly then I'm going with the combat for pvp then because that will keep me entertained if I'm forced to pick one. But Id rather have ashes so what they are doing and do hybrid in a balanced and fun state.
Yep, that's totally fine, and you see where some of our differences come from. We are looking for different things in an MMORPG, and that's fine. Myself I'd take the first option 10/10 times.
I'd also have what Ashes seems to be doing, as I can still have all of that customization and complexity. It just depends how far into one or the other system they go, and the way they implement it. If it's just the basic attack, with dodging and having to aim certain skills in a way that's action based, that's great. They also seem to have an action-camera option (just like GW2), so that additionally works great for people like you who prefer action-combat, as you will have a reticle in the middle, and will have to aim majority of the abilities. Overall it's gonna boost that action feel even more. For everyone else, action camera can stay turned off, and we can enjoy tab-targeting gameplay, with occasional skill you have to aim in certain direction/area, or a certain thing you have to dodge (though I'd honestly prefer not having to do it a lot).
I've said before everything she have shown before is great. My only issue was when someone said its impossible to do something when imo action elements in mmorpgs are still growing quickly. I don't look at something being impossible even more so when its early in development or a new idea, I look how do we make this possible while keeping the mechanically fun elements. Impossibility is only when you have used all your resources and given up on accomplishing a goal.
You can't imagine taking any of the the tab games mentioned, converting them to action, and adapting their content?
I don't think this is necessary but what makes content varied is kind of subjective so this seems like the easiest way to argue it. At first, you could just translate the player combat to use hitscan/raycasting instead of tab. This is more to help you imagine the transition process but I think it works as baseline action since you are now aiming. If, as a tab game, it was considered varied, it should still keep that variety but no longer be tab. From there, you can make further modifications to make it more "action" and make sure you compensate where necessary so you still have the variety of the base game had.
If there are any mechanics you don't think can be translated then please bring them up and tell me why.
Not as doable but as a concept, i'd think you can also do the opposite and imagine an action game's combat in a tab game with your target content and start the modding there. Once again, more of mental exercise but might help see what could work, what you would want to change, and how you could change it.
Your first line here is incredibly hyperbole to me at this moment (mood). I do not wish to engage here, but I absolutely am not against trying to have a productive discussion on it. I posted a different thread, in which I hope I can come to a greater understanding of exactly what you are saying/believe and why, if you're willing to engage there.
I feel like our perspectives are currently too far apart for this to be a productive use of time. I'll gladly come back to this later.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/52939/lets-theoryraid-1-jormungand-vs-xenojiiva#latest