I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

I haven't played it yet, so I'm not drawing any sort of line yet. But steven asked for feedback about if we are going in a positive direction, and I'm just gonna say that every action combat korean type mmo I've ever played I have absolutely hated. I am tab target 100%, I think action combat only works from an overhead 3rd person perspective like diablo or league of legends or lost ark. I don't want to aim my ability's honestly, If I use a sword and get animation locked, and at the same time I'm required to dodge some kind of skill shot. I'm not gonna be happy. If I miss a spell as a spell caster because my mouse was 4 pixels off, same thing. Tab targeting let's me focus on what I think matters.

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Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

As an aside, I have literally never seen a GCD longer than 0.5 seconds - your comment ts on them being g 1.5 second is once again leads me to question if you have any experience at all with tab target games

WoW's is 1.5 generally

This is true, but WoWs GCD is triggered when you start casting a spell, not when you finish.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I know some of your skills have cast times but that is fine in all mmorpgs (as long as its not on every single skill). Of course the point would be the same if mage classes had like 50% skill cast times, compared to a warrior class that has none. The warrior would just feel more fluid.

I have a good feeling about ashes combat, they know what they want to do, have a good sign on direction. Now its about just making all the content and testing it with all aspects of the hybrid system. Then they can start to polish after that and get some good animations in, effects and balance.

Again though, action games have cast times too. And even in the last Ashes stream, that hammer skill had an almost 2 second cast time. Would you call that a tab ability? And Ashes won't have animation canceling so you'll have to spend those whole 2 seconds casting that hammer attack. And that's as a warrior! And whirlwind attack seems to be around 4 seconds of unbreakable animation.

So if you love BDO's animation cancelling so much, you might not really like AoC's combat, if they continue with this kind of pace of battle.

The gameplay design/development isn't done and he said yes to animation cancelling in the QA. If they continue I'd expect it to be there for sure as well with a decent to high skill ceiling of combat, doesn't mean it needs to be like bdo's exact form though.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

he said yes to animation cancelling in the QA.

Do you have the stream and a timestamp for that? Cause I'll definitely give that to the wiki guys, cause there's no such info on there rn.

Noaani wrote: »

This is true, but WoWs GCD is triggered when you start casting a spell, not when you finish.

Ah, right, there's a difference in that aspect too

I got no clue about gcds so the only ones I've heard about are mainly wow's and ff14 and I believe both of those are cast-start -based.

Mag7spy

its just the combat video, i don't remember the time its in QA

Okeydoke

51:20 in this video. I don't think Steven understood the question or answered the question he thought he was answering though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sUTuUAgavE

Ludullu

Yeah, I just rewatched the whole combat video and was just getting to the questions for it. And Okey is right, Steven began to answer before the question got to the "animation canceling" part. And he was just saying that there'll be the ability to dodge incoming attacks and that some abilities will mitigate dmg if used at the right time.

Nothing was said about animation canceling, so, at least right now, there's no change in their direction.

JustVine

Mag7spy wrote: »

its just the combat video, i don't remember the time its in QA

You are misinterpreting what he said because Steven answered in a way that could cause confusion.

Margaret: they wanna know will we have some avoidable attacks? Is there any chance for weaving or animation canceling.
Steven: Absolutely, there are intended dodges and gap closers and you know increased mitigation effects for incoming damage that are situationally actively relevant right? So you see an animation wind up that's a telegraph on what's coming and then you have response actions that you can take as result of that in order to dodge, weave, move, do whatever, right? It is both a combination of what your rotation is, but also how you have reaction abilities ready to go that you save for certain circumstances that are important.[1]

See how he never mentions animation canceling or 'animation weaving' once, but he focuses on 'avoidable attacks' the entire time?

Here is the other main data point we have relative to IS's stance on animation canceling

Question: Will animation canceling be used as a combat mechanic
Jeffery: This(Ashes) is not a fighting game. If your ability is available you will be able to use it. You are not going to be locked into animations for the most part, for most of the game. I say most because I can't think of any exceptions but there might be. But that is not going to be a part of combat at this point.

Feel free to argue what the above quote means, but many people here have been under the impression for a long time that there is no animation canceling in Ashes due to the above quote.

Here is the actual page on the wiki if you want to take a look at all the evidence: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Animation_canceling

Sources:
[1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sUTuUAgavE&t=3077s
[2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fPIP8uu6Pc&t=3911s

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Yeah, I just rewatched the whole combat video and was just getting to the questions for it. And Okey is right, Steven began to answer before the question got to the "animation canceling" part. And he was just saying that there'll be the ability to dodge incoming attacks and that some abilities will mitigate dmg if used at the right time.

Nothing was said about animation canceling, so, at least right now, there's no change in their direction.

If he says yes he says yes you can't say he didn't hear the entire question else he could have corrected it and said no. If you are stopping a skill and using a dodge that is a animation cancel. So direction based on that answer is on point with situations you can react to, which sounds right in the direction of animation cancelling.

Else we are going to get into nuance which can be used for any post at this point and we can assume changes to anything. So it was a yes, it was also explained of multiple things you can do and react. To assume against it doesn't make sense, even more so as the game isn't finished so we don't know all the aspects of combat.

Mag7spy

Seeing the wiki actually they don't have animation cancelling, neverminded on that, that means we are going to have to do entire animations and can't stop them if they continue with that. That is kind of interesting actually if you can't dodge out of any skill.

Even more so if its something that you can't control your movement.

Mag7spy

Either way design can change, i feel more then likely you will have animation cancelling in the game as long as they have dodge. And depending how often they let you use it once testing starts and if people complain being stuck in something too long.

Mag7spy

JustVine wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

its just the combat video, i don't remember the time its in QA

You are misinterpreting what he said because Steven answered in a way that could cause confusion.

Margaret: they wanna know will we have some avoidable attacks? Is there any chance for weaving or animation canceling.
Steven: Absolutely, there are intended dodges and gap closers and you know increased mitigation effects for incoming damage that are situationally actively relevant right? So you see an animation wind up that's a telegraph on what's coming and then you have response actions that you can take as result of that in order to dodge, weave, move, do whatever, right? It is both a combination of what your rotation is, but also how you have reaction abilities ready to go that you save for certain circumstances that are important.[1]

See how he never mentions animation canceling or 'animation weaving' once, but he focuses on 'avoidable attacks' the entire time?

Here is the other main data point we have relative to IS's stance on animation canceling

Question: Will animation canceling be used as a combat mechanic
Jeffery: This(Ashes) is not a fighting game. If your ability is available you will be able to use it. You are not going to be locked into animations for the most part, for most of the game. I say most because I can't think of any exceptions but there might be. But that is not going to be a part of combat at this point.

Feel free to argue what the above quote means, but many people here have been under the impression for a long time that there is no animation canceling in Ashes due to the above quote.

Here is the actual page on the wiki if you want to take a look at all the evidence: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Animation_canceling

Sources:
[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sUTuUAgavE&t=3077s
[2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fPIP8uu6Pc&t=3911s

Remember that is 5 years ago things can change based on their direction. I'm pretty confident you will see animation cancelling with dodge at least depending on how feedback goes. Remember they will have a different lead designer things can change.

At the moment we have contradicting information and the current info says other wise compared to the old info. But we will see as they show more combat and it gets tested.

Mag7spy

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/52913/animation-canceling-dodging-weaving/p1?new=1

Ludullu

Btw, when rewatching the combat video I realized that I missed a core piece of info for myself. In tab targeting you can in fact use action skills against your camera (you look back, while the character looks forward). That was great to see cause that was one of the things I wanted, having missed seeing it during the stream.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Btw, when rewatching the combat video I realized that I missed a core piece of info for myself. In tab targeting you can in fact use action skills against your camera (you look back, while the character looks forward). That was great to see cause that was one of the things I wanted, having missed seeing it during the stream.

Action combat isn't limited to camera direction, parts of it exist though very small in tab target mmorpgs as they become more modern. ITs just not as effective to attack on weird angles as you are trying to track and hit your target.

Kenpachi

It is what it is. Games wouldn't cater to everyone and action combat done well has a track record to keep tons of players.

NyxiLeon

I totally agree with OP no matter what action-combat fanatics may have said.

Hopefully this game won’t only rely on action-combat, otherwise a (huge) amount of his prospect players might just leave.

iccer

Kenpachi wrote: »

It is what it is. Games wouldn't cater to everyone and action combat done well has a track record to keep tons of players.

You could make the same argument for tab-targeting btw.

Besides BDO, ESO and I guess Lost Ark, I genuinely can't name you one successful action-combat MMORPG in 2022. ESO is well known for having a bad combat system. Lost Ark is a top-down game that, besides Raids and combat (in PvE), has nothing really going for it. PvP is so unfun to play due to combat mechanics. I've already expressed my thoughts on BDO's combat, and I probably wouldn't have an issue with that sort of combat in a single-player RPG. ESO is overall a great game if you ignore the bad combat. The other 2 are p2w grindfests.

falcorpix

iccer wrote: »

Kenpachi wrote: »

It is what it is. Games wouldn't cater to everyone and action combat done well has a track record to keep tons of players.

The other 2 are p2w grindfests.

That is really the big problem, only koreans are trying to do good action combat and they come with the traditional p2w shenanigans and/or lack of content.
The problem isnt the combat, its everything else.
Tera another example of this, it was great for the first couple of years, it lacked good content updates and started moving to the p2w/daily bs and timegates that all these korean games do, after that it survived exclusively because of its combat.
Not sure whats the state of Blade & Soul, but I bet most people are still playing for its combat aswell.

On the other hand, western developers dont understand action combat at all., but the games actually deliver in other aspects.

NyxiLeon

Imo Ashes of Creation devs should release a video update about the tab-targeting combat system, to reassure that huge amount of players that really were not satisfied with what they watched.

And it should be a caster class, because I don’t expect for example an healer to be more action-combat oriented.

Most efficient healing skills have always been : tab/click-targeting your allies, proceed to healing (single or aoe).

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