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I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

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Comments

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    [
    This isn't chaotic to me this is normal o.O.
    Now if they do this

    Adds

    -random types of adds strong and weak with completely random abilities every time you redo the raid
    -Skill use always generates different effects from raid to raid so different danger zones, effects etc to the point you can never plan for it and having a substantial effect on the raid (sleep where you need to be hit to wake up, electric effect you need to do a mechanics to avoid, fire you need to do a different mechanics to avoid) if they had about 10+ of these it would feel very chaotic and unpredictable to counter,

    If something is very chaotic strategy isn't going to be something easy as it will be more reaction based then strategy. The core of having very chaotic elements with mechanics and all isn't a good design at the raid becomes RNG which is frustrating cause you have no control over being killed or not. Though if they leaned more heavy on the action side and you had mobility this would be a little more fair.

    To address this part as clearly as possible.

    Jormungand's skill use is limited to a set number of things, yes, but which moves Jormungand uses is COMPLETELY RANDOM.

    And yes, that actually does mean that it is chaotic, unpredictable, hard to counter, reaction based, and you can die from RNG.

    So, one more time.

    1.Ashes has a lot of EQ Devs, EQ bosses can be so unpredictable that you die from RNG.
    2. FFXI has bosses that are so unpredictable that you die from RNG.
    3. Steven has specifically said that there will be random skill usage.

    I will add to this that the mechanics of a boss in Ashes may change based on:

    Changes in the nearby nodes.
    Time of day.
    Weather.
    How well you did against the previous boss.

    To someone from EQ2 or FFXI, this all sounds normal. I for one expect 'dying to RNG' to be part of Ashes raiding. I do not consider it bad design.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Any reasonable person would think action combat is in the game, so rather then thinking its impossible they would think how it can work and pushing it as far as possible in a discussion while raising some concerns they have. Right off the bat you didn't care for the discussion or thinking about possibilities so it leads to nothing but an argument.

    Reasonable people start by addressing assumptions and priors, and those must often be discussed or argued first.

    That's where we still are relative to that Tab vs Action Raid thing. Your presence would have been requested in the other thread.

    People argue with you when you challenge their priors, or bring information that shows you don't understand their priors.

    Maybe we can focus on something that is very direct and that we can actually progress on, in that case. You have one prior that is provably wrong, and I for one would like you to accept that it is provably wrong. It has nothing to do with Action or Tab. Just one thing.

    You have stated that you believe 'All Raid bosses/enemies have a pattern, it isn't just chaos'.

    This is not true, and until you are clear that it is not true, it's difficult to have that reasonable discussion you mentioned. Now, if you meant 'All Raid bosses/enemies should have a pattern", that's different, but you should accept that there are games, specifically popular games, where there are scenarios like this with no pattern, so that we can have a discussion.

    Every raid boss has patterns that is just how it is you are trying to stretch things to make it make sense with your point because you don't want to be wrong. A boss encounter does things, has stages of mechanics and you know what to expect and to plan for. Phase one does attack a,b,c. Phase two this mech and attack a,c. Phase three these three mechs attack a,b,c,d,e.

    Bosses don't suddenly do new attacks, you look at guides you see what it does you are good. Then you just practice till you are use to the attack patterns and motions and work towards beating the raid.

    So to be clear, you are unable to grasp this specific prior?

    I have given you an example of a boss that does not have a pattern before. You incorrectly concluded that the boss did have a pattern based on something you didn't understand, and dismissed it.

    Jormungand does not have a pattern to its offensive attacks or actions. Jormungand 'gains a single empowered move at 25% health', what you would call 'phase 2'.

    Jormungand can quickly devolve into chaos if it randomly does certain moves too often or 'randomly starts just casting spells all the time' instead of using physical attacks.

    Your perception is incorrect.

    You gave one example in a very old game and I mentioned one pattern it does based on the site regardless if you like it or not.

    Give me an examples in Final Fantasy XIV if you can show me a pattern a lot of bosses are chaotic then I'll agree with you if the guides seem to show it is hard to do one for them or better impossible.

    So only examples that match your experience count? I'm unclear.

    You looked at a single site that specifically says 'Sporadically uses Horrid Roar 3x in a row below 25%'.

    spo·rad·i·cal·ly
    /spəˈradək(ə)lē/
    Learn to pronounce
    adverb
    occasionally or at irregular intervals.
    "he worked sporadically at part-time jobs"

    I don't mind if you want to switch to 'there are no modern games where high level bosses are chaotic'. I don't mind if you want to switch to 'Ok so some games have chaotic bosses but Ashes won't'.

    90% of bosses in FFXI work this same way. It's part of the game's design. You are free to claim 'that game is too old to count' or 'Ashes won't be like that', but not 'Games aren't made like that'. Understand?

    The whole point is normal game design doesn't do things like that there is one offs time to time but very rare and uncommon. I know the sleeper in EQ wasn't really meant to be beat id say those are one of those rare exception of chaotic mechanics.

    I absolutely understand you, but we are trying to align priors.

    Here.

    Raid mechanics
    Raids contain intricate combat mechanics.[13]

    Multiple phase boss fights.[13]
    Adds.[13]
    Random oriented skill usage.[13]
    Telegraphed animations, but no obvious telegraphed templates on the ground.[13]
    Fights will require location, mobility and strategy.[13]
    Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[13] – Steven Sharif

    Now please pay careful attention to this next part because I otherwise I will just have to repeat it over and over.

    1. Ashes has a lot of EQ devs, boss skills are random in EQ.
    2. Ashes' former Lead Designer has played FFXI. Boss skills are random in FFXI.
    3. The quote above is from Steven himself. There are additional quotes that further reinforce this potential approach to design.

    It does not matter if it would be an outlier to do it that way if Ashes is planning to do it that way.

    I will repeat this entire section as many times as it takes for you to understand the design of Ashes as it is currently known to exist.

    This isn't chaotic to me this is normal o.O.
    Now if they do this

    Adds

    -random types of adds strong and weak with completely random abilities every time you redo the raid
    -Skill use always generates different effects from raid to raid so different danger zones, effects etc to the point you can never plan for it and having a substantial effect on the raid (sleep where you need to be hit to wake up, electric effect you need to do a mechanics to avoid, fire you need to do a different mechanics to avoid) if they had about 10+ of these it would feel very chaotic and unpredictable to counter,

    If something is very chaotic strategy isn't going to be something easy as it will be more reaction based then strategy. The core of having very chaotic elements with mechanics and all isn't a good design at the raid becomes RNG which is frustrating cause you have no control over being killed or not. Though if they leaned more heavy on the action side and you had mobility this would be a little more fair.

    i]Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[/i][13] – Steven Sharif

    This sounds about right on what I'd expect, and doesn't sound chaotic to me. But there will be a lot less hand holding.

    Ok, let me try again so that I can see if I understand what you're saying.

    If I tell you that a boss casts a big damage spell, and while you are healing just randomly starts casting it again, is this chaotic?

    Assume that the same boss could just randomly start casting the same spell AGAIN as soon as the cooldown timer is up, instead of using any other more 'fair' ability.

    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    Is this chaotic?

    If not, what exactly is your definition of 'chaotic'?

    I don't view that as chaotic I view that as part of the fight in the skill yet it can use that you need to prepare for. There is some rng involved in getting a bad roll on what a boss can do but its nothing that you fully don't expect.
    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    This part I don't understand how are tanks stopping from getting threat? Are they worried about the spell that can damage them so they are not fully attacking and trying t guess when he uses it?


    My definition is mechanics that are not fair or there is no pattern in a boss. A pattern being what does the boss do in a fight phase 1, phase 2, phase 3. If the boss has a bunch of wipe mechanics that are random and spawn randomly I'd view that as chaotic because it comes out of your control and you are dying to rng at that point. Like the example I gave earlier if you had a raid of 40 and everyone gets hit and its random for everyone what mechs you need to do with like 10 different mechs and based ont he amount of people pre mech it can change, that would be chaotic.

    Then it isn't about what can the boss do anymore and you just having to prepare for anything and be expected to die a lot until you can get a good roll maybe.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Any reasonable person would think action combat is in the game, so rather then thinking its impossible they would think how it can work and pushing it as far as possible in a discussion while raising some concerns they have. Right off the bat you didn't care for the discussion or thinking about possibilities so it leads to nothing but an argument.

    Reasonable people start by addressing assumptions and priors, and those must often be discussed or argued first.

    That's where we still are relative to that Tab vs Action Raid thing. Your presence would have been requested in the other thread.

    People argue with you when you challenge their priors, or bring information that shows you don't understand their priors.

    Maybe we can focus on something that is very direct and that we can actually progress on, in that case. You have one prior that is provably wrong, and I for one would like you to accept that it is provably wrong. It has nothing to do with Action or Tab. Just one thing.

    You have stated that you believe 'All Raid bosses/enemies have a pattern, it isn't just chaos'.

    This is not true, and until you are clear that it is not true, it's difficult to have that reasonable discussion you mentioned. Now, if you meant 'All Raid bosses/enemies should have a pattern", that's different, but you should accept that there are games, specifically popular games, where there are scenarios like this with no pattern, so that we can have a discussion.

    Every raid boss has patterns that is just how it is you are trying to stretch things to make it make sense with your point because you don't want to be wrong. A boss encounter does things, has stages of mechanics and you know what to expect and to plan for. Phase one does attack a,b,c. Phase two this mech and attack a,c. Phase three these three mechs attack a,b,c,d,e.

    Bosses don't suddenly do new attacks, you look at guides you see what it does you are good. Then you just practice till you are use to the attack patterns and motions and work towards beating the raid.

    So to be clear, you are unable to grasp this specific prior?

    I have given you an example of a boss that does not have a pattern before. You incorrectly concluded that the boss did have a pattern based on something you didn't understand, and dismissed it.

    Jormungand does not have a pattern to its offensive attacks or actions. Jormungand 'gains a single empowered move at 25% health', what you would call 'phase 2'.

    Jormungand can quickly devolve into chaos if it randomly does certain moves too often or 'randomly starts just casting spells all the time' instead of using physical attacks.

    Your perception is incorrect.

    You gave one example in a very old game and I mentioned one pattern it does based on the site regardless if you like it or not.

    Give me an examples in Final Fantasy XIV if you can show me a pattern a lot of bosses are chaotic then I'll agree with you if the guides seem to show it is hard to do one for them or better impossible.

    So only examples that match your experience count? I'm unclear.

    You looked at a single site that specifically says 'Sporadically uses Horrid Roar 3x in a row below 25%'.

    spo·rad·i·cal·ly
    /spəˈradək(ə)lē/
    Learn to pronounce
    adverb
    occasionally or at irregular intervals.
    "he worked sporadically at part-time jobs"

    I don't mind if you want to switch to 'there are no modern games where high level bosses are chaotic'. I don't mind if you want to switch to 'Ok so some games have chaotic bosses but Ashes won't'.

    90% of bosses in FFXI work this same way. It's part of the game's design. You are free to claim 'that game is too old to count' or 'Ashes won't be like that', but not 'Games aren't made like that'. Understand?

    The whole point is normal game design doesn't do things like that there is one offs time to time but very rare and uncommon. I know the sleeper in EQ wasn't really meant to be beat id say those are one of those rare exception of chaotic mechanics.

    I absolutely understand you, but we are trying to align priors.

    Here.

    Raid mechanics
    Raids contain intricate combat mechanics.[13]

    Multiple phase boss fights.[13]
    Adds.[13]
    Random oriented skill usage.[13]
    Telegraphed animations, but no obvious telegraphed templates on the ground.[13]
    Fights will require location, mobility and strategy.[13]
    Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[13] – Steven Sharif

    Now please pay careful attention to this next part because I otherwise I will just have to repeat it over and over.

    1. Ashes has a lot of EQ devs, boss skills are random in EQ.
    2. Ashes' former Lead Designer has played FFXI. Boss skills are random in FFXI.
    3. The quote above is from Steven himself. There are additional quotes that further reinforce this potential approach to design.

    It does not matter if it would be an outlier to do it that way if Ashes is planning to do it that way.

    I will repeat this entire section as many times as it takes for you to understand the design of Ashes as it is currently known to exist.

    This isn't chaotic to me this is normal o.O.
    Now if they do this

    Adds

    -random types of adds strong and weak with completely random abilities every time you redo the raid
    -Skill use always generates different effects from raid to raid so different danger zones, effects etc to the point you can never plan for it and having a substantial effect on the raid (sleep where you need to be hit to wake up, electric effect you need to do a mechanics to avoid, fire you need to do a different mechanics to avoid) if they had about 10+ of these it would feel very chaotic and unpredictable to counter,

    If something is very chaotic strategy isn't going to be something easy as it will be more reaction based then strategy. The core of having very chaotic elements with mechanics and all isn't a good design at the raid becomes RNG which is frustrating cause you have no control over being killed or not. Though if they leaned more heavy on the action side and you had mobility this would be a little more fair.

    i]Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[/i][13] – Steven Sharif

    This sounds about right on what I'd expect, and doesn't sound chaotic to me. But there will be a lot less hand holding.

    Ok, let me try again so that I can see if I understand what you're saying.

    If I tell you that a boss casts a big damage spell, and while you are healing just randomly starts casting it again, is this chaotic?

    Assume that the same boss could just randomly start casting the same spell AGAIN as soon as the cooldown timer is up, instead of using any other more 'fair' ability.

    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    Is this chaotic?

    If not, what exactly is your definition of 'chaotic'?

    I don't view that as chaotic I view that as part of the fight in the skill yet it can use that you need to prepare for. There is some rng involved in getting a bad roll on what a boss can do but its nothing that you fully don't expect.
    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    This part I don't understand how are tanks stopping from getting threat? Are they worried about the spell that can damage them so they are not fully attacking and trying t guess when he uses it?


    My definition is mechanics that are not fair or there is no pattern in a boss. A pattern being what does the boss do in a fight phase 1, phase 2, phase 3. If the boss has a bunch of wipe mechanics that are random and spawn randomly I'd view that as chaotic because it comes out of your control and you are dying to rng at that point. Like the example I gave earlier if you had a raid of 40 and everyone gets hit and its random for everyone what mechs you need to do with like 10 different mechs and based ont he amount of people pre mech it can change, that would be chaotic.

    Then it isn't about what can the boss do anymore and you just having to prepare for anything and be expected to die a lot until you can get a good roll maybe.

    You are currently failing to comprehend something, or just waffling, but it sounds like you are saying 'yes, chaotic'.

    I have no specific interest in whether you consider Steven's designs bad or not. I only care that you understand them.

    One of the design elements that we're implementing into our raids is that the raid will not be exactly the same every single time. You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well. We want there to be variables that get manifested by you know what type of node got developed elsewhere. Is he going to have acolytes or cultists? What will the acolytes have skills [available] to them? What kit is the boss gonna have? What available skill repertoire will the boss be able to [wield]? ... A lot of those systems are influenced obviously by world development. So the raid kind of takes into account at what stage has the world developed: Are there two metropolises now available in the world? Okay well let's activate this skill in this skill. Now you have five metropolises, well now all these skills have been activated. Are there are they all economic nodes? Are they all military nodes? That we can change things based on that stuff. And it really is a threat assessment from the environment against the players.[12] – Steven Sharif

    Notice that this quote references 'the possibility of changing the adds' and the possibility of changes to the skills of the adds.

    It also implies that you cannot go into a raid being sure which mechanics/skills the boss will even have. You might assume that 'none of those would kill you, that wouldn't be fair'.

    I have fought Jormungand. To that, I say 'Ice Dragons don't care what you think is fair'.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Then it isn't about what can the boss do anymore and you just having to prepare for anything and be expected to die a lot until you can get a good roll maybe.

    And to address this one separately:

    Yes, this is what I understand Raiding to be like. This is what I hope raiding is like. This is the sort of thing I have seen the 'beginnings' of in Alpha-1.

    I am not concerned that we will not get this style of Raiding based on either of those quotes.

    Can you understand that it is not unreasonable for me to expect this FROM ASHES?
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    By that definition of chaotic - isn't PvP inherently chaotic?
    Sieges will be chaotic. Caravan raids will be chaotic.
    If PvP is so much more challenging than PvE, "chaotic", unpredictable bosses should not be an issue.

    "One of the design elements that we're implementing into our raids is that the raid will not be exactly the same every single time. You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well. We want there to be variables that get manifested by you know what type of node got developed elsewhere. Is he going to have acolytes or cultists? What will the acolytes have skills [available] to them? What kit is the boss gonna have? What available skill repertoire will the boss be able to [wield]? ... A lot of those systems are influenced obviously by world development. So the raid kind of takes into account at what stage has the world developed: Are there two metropolises now available in the world? Okay well let's activate this skill in this skill. Now you have five metropolises, well now all these skills have been activated. Are there are they all economic nodes? Are they all military nodes? That we can change things based on that stuff. And it really is a threat assessment from the environment against the players."
    ---Steven
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Any reasonable person would think action combat is in the game, so rather then thinking its impossible they would think how it can work and pushing it as far as possible in a discussion while raising some concerns they have. Right off the bat you didn't care for the discussion or thinking about possibilities so it leads to nothing but an argument.

    Reasonable people start by addressing assumptions and priors, and those must often be discussed or argued first.

    That's where we still are relative to that Tab vs Action Raid thing. Your presence would have been requested in the other thread.

    People argue with you when you challenge their priors, or bring information that shows you don't understand their priors.

    Maybe we can focus on something that is very direct and that we can actually progress on, in that case. You have one prior that is provably wrong, and I for one would like you to accept that it is provably wrong. It has nothing to do with Action or Tab. Just one thing.

    You have stated that you believe 'All Raid bosses/enemies have a pattern, it isn't just chaos'.

    This is not true, and until you are clear that it is not true, it's difficult to have that reasonable discussion you mentioned. Now, if you meant 'All Raid bosses/enemies should have a pattern", that's different, but you should accept that there are games, specifically popular games, where there are scenarios like this with no pattern, so that we can have a discussion.

    Every raid boss has patterns that is just how it is you are trying to stretch things to make it make sense with your point because you don't want to be wrong. A boss encounter does things, has stages of mechanics and you know what to expect and to plan for. Phase one does attack a,b,c. Phase two this mech and attack a,c. Phase three these three mechs attack a,b,c,d,e.

    Bosses don't suddenly do new attacks, you look at guides you see what it does you are good. Then you just practice till you are use to the attack patterns and motions and work towards beating the raid.

    So to be clear, you are unable to grasp this specific prior?

    I have given you an example of a boss that does not have a pattern before. You incorrectly concluded that the boss did have a pattern based on something you didn't understand, and dismissed it.

    Jormungand does not have a pattern to its offensive attacks or actions. Jormungand 'gains a single empowered move at 25% health', what you would call 'phase 2'.

    Jormungand can quickly devolve into chaos if it randomly does certain moves too often or 'randomly starts just casting spells all the time' instead of using physical attacks.

    Your perception is incorrect.

    You gave one example in a very old game and I mentioned one pattern it does based on the site regardless if you like it or not.

    Give me an examples in Final Fantasy XIV if you can show me a pattern a lot of bosses are chaotic then I'll agree with you if the guides seem to show it is hard to do one for them or better impossible.

    So only examples that match your experience count? I'm unclear.

    You looked at a single site that specifically says 'Sporadically uses Horrid Roar 3x in a row below 25%'.

    spo·rad·i·cal·ly
    /spəˈradək(ə)lē/
    Learn to pronounce
    adverb
    occasionally or at irregular intervals.
    "he worked sporadically at part-time jobs"

    I don't mind if you want to switch to 'there are no modern games where high level bosses are chaotic'. I don't mind if you want to switch to 'Ok so some games have chaotic bosses but Ashes won't'.

    90% of bosses in FFXI work this same way. It's part of the game's design. You are free to claim 'that game is too old to count' or 'Ashes won't be like that', but not 'Games aren't made like that'. Understand?

    The whole point is normal game design doesn't do things like that there is one offs time to time but very rare and uncommon. I know the sleeper in EQ wasn't really meant to be beat id say those are one of those rare exception of chaotic mechanics.

    I absolutely understand you, but we are trying to align priors.

    Here.

    Raid mechanics
    Raids contain intricate combat mechanics.[13]

    Multiple phase boss fights.[13]
    Adds.[13]
    Random oriented skill usage.[13]
    Telegraphed animations, but no obvious telegraphed templates on the ground.[13]
    Fights will require location, mobility and strategy.[13]
    Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[13] – Steven Sharif

    Now please pay careful attention to this next part because I otherwise I will just have to repeat it over and over.

    1. Ashes has a lot of EQ devs, boss skills are random in EQ.
    2. Ashes' former Lead Designer has played FFXI. Boss skills are random in FFXI.
    3. The quote above is from Steven himself. There are additional quotes that further reinforce this potential approach to design.

    It does not matter if it would be an outlier to do it that way if Ashes is planning to do it that way.

    I will repeat this entire section as many times as it takes for you to understand the design of Ashes as it is currently known to exist.

    This isn't chaotic to me this is normal o.O.
    Now if they do this

    Adds

    -random types of adds strong and weak with completely random abilities every time you redo the raid
    -Skill use always generates different effects from raid to raid so different danger zones, effects etc to the point you can never plan for it and having a substantial effect on the raid (sleep where you need to be hit to wake up, electric effect you need to do a mechanics to avoid, fire you need to do a different mechanics to avoid) if they had about 10+ of these it would feel very chaotic and unpredictable to counter,

    If something is very chaotic strategy isn't going to be something easy as it will be more reaction based then strategy. The core of having very chaotic elements with mechanics and all isn't a good design at the raid becomes RNG which is frustrating cause you have no control over being killed or not. Though if they leaned more heavy on the action side and you had mobility this would be a little more fair.

    i]Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[/i][13] – Steven Sharif

    This sounds about right on what I'd expect, and doesn't sound chaotic to me. But there will be a lot less hand holding.

    Ok, let me try again so that I can see if I understand what you're saying.

    If I tell you that a boss casts a big damage spell, and while you are healing just randomly starts casting it again, is this chaotic?

    Assume that the same boss could just randomly start casting the same spell AGAIN as soon as the cooldown timer is up, instead of using any other more 'fair' ability.

    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    Is this chaotic?

    If not, what exactly is your definition of 'chaotic'?

    I don't view that as chaotic I view that as part of the fight in the skill yet it can use that you need to prepare for. There is some rng involved in getting a bad roll on what a boss can do but its nothing that you fully don't expect.
    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    This part I don't understand how are tanks stopping from getting threat? Are they worried about the spell that can damage them so they are not fully attacking and trying t guess when he uses it?


    My definition is mechanics that are not fair or there is no pattern in a boss. A pattern being what does the boss do in a fight phase 1, phase 2, phase 3. If the boss has a bunch of wipe mechanics that are random and spawn randomly I'd view that as chaotic because it comes out of your control and you are dying to rng at that point. Like the example I gave earlier if you had a raid of 40 and everyone gets hit and its random for everyone what mechs you need to do with like 10 different mechs and based ont he amount of people pre mech it can change, that would be chaotic.

    Then it isn't about what can the boss do anymore and you just having to prepare for anything and be expected to die a lot until you can get a good roll maybe.

    You are currently failing to comprehend something, or just waffling, but it sounds like you are saying 'yes, chaotic'.

    I have no specific interest in whether you consider Steven's designs bad or not. I only care that you understand them.

    One of the design elements that we're implementing into our raids is that the raid will not be exactly the same every single time. You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well. We want there to be variables that get manifested by you know what type of node got developed elsewhere. Is he going to have acolytes or cultists? What will the acolytes have skills [available] to them? What kit is the boss gonna have? What available skill repertoire will the boss be able to [wield]? ... A lot of those systems are influenced obviously by world development. So the raid kind of takes into account at what stage has the world developed: Are there two metropolises now available in the world? Okay well let's activate this skill in this skill. Now you have five metropolises, well now all these skills have been activated. Are there are they all economic nodes? Are they all military nodes? That we can change things based on that stuff. And it really is a threat assessment from the environment against the players.[12] – Steven Sharif

    Notice that this quote references 'the possibility of changing the adds' and the possibility of changes to the skills of the adds.

    It also implies that you cannot go into a raid being sure which mechanics/skills the boss will even have. You might assume that 'none of those would kill you, that wouldn't be fair'.

    I have fought Jormungand. To that, I say 'Ice Dragons don't care what you think is fair'.

    There is no waffling I've stated examples I consider so you have a direct thought you can compare one to one however you like.

    I didn't state good or bad, I said that sounds about what Id expect in a mmorpg with less hand holding. You are inserting extra information into the convo why?

    Yes I'm aware of that based on node development it can influence the PvE content and there can be changes in enemies. I think this is your bias coming in into what you want or you are overexaggerating base on what you hope or to try to prove your point. If adds spawn even if it is a surprise the first time you will know generally what to expect. Will they change the mechanics of the entire encounter I don't think so as they are just adds. The adds I'm reference would have a much large effect on the encounter I should have detailed on how that could be done but adds that involve strong mechanics as well. If you go into a dungeon and see what mobs are there around the boss you will know ahead of time as well what to expect just depends on how they design the encounter. In the end this is something we would have to see to judge it as you can do anything with design but my expectations are kept in check.

    I know this goes back to them saying they didn't want bosses and dungeons to be overly spongy and wanted to involved more mechanics if a zerg walked in as well. What I think is fair and what I judge as unfair in mechanics in being chaotic are two different things. Which normally involves a game where death can be heavily rng involved and being unable to react to mechanics properly (ie one sec starts and is randomly placed, then you get unlucky with another rng mech and you die 100% of the time). There is nothing wrong with getting unlucky and maybe one dies or you take damage and have to adjust, but different when it involves a potential raid wipe.

  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Then it isn't about what can the boss do anymore and you just having to prepare for anything and be expected to die a lot until you can get a good roll maybe.

    And to address this one separately:

    Yes, this is what I understand Raiding to be like. This is what I hope raiding is like. This is the sort of thing I have seen the 'beginnings' of in Alpha-1.

    I am not concerned that we will not get this style of Raiding based on either of those quotes.

    Can you understand that it is not unreasonable for me to expect this FROM ASHES?

    I would keep expectations in check, it isn't about what I want but what the people want and the devs create. That is why its important to give positive feedback on this type of thing, I tried to start a thread on it but people were not that motivated on commenting on raiding more than once or bouncing ideas off each other. Sadly the arguments motivate people more.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Any reasonable person would think action combat is in the game, so rather then thinking its impossible they would think how it can work and pushing it as far as possible in a discussion while raising some concerns they have. Right off the bat you didn't care for the discussion or thinking about possibilities so it leads to nothing but an argument.

    Reasonable people start by addressing assumptions and priors, and those must often be discussed or argued first.

    That's where we still are relative to that Tab vs Action Raid thing. Your presence would have been requested in the other thread.

    People argue with you when you challenge their priors, or bring information that shows you don't understand their priors.

    Maybe we can focus on something that is very direct and that we can actually progress on, in that case. You have one prior that is provably wrong, and I for one would like you to accept that it is provably wrong. It has nothing to do with Action or Tab. Just one thing.

    You have stated that you believe 'All Raid bosses/enemies have a pattern, it isn't just chaos'.

    This is not true, and until you are clear that it is not true, it's difficult to have that reasonable discussion you mentioned. Now, if you meant 'All Raid bosses/enemies should have a pattern", that's different, but you should accept that there are games, specifically popular games, where there are scenarios like this with no pattern, so that we can have a discussion.

    Every raid boss has patterns that is just how it is you are trying to stretch things to make it make sense with your point because you don't want to be wrong. A boss encounter does things, has stages of mechanics and you know what to expect and to plan for. Phase one does attack a,b,c. Phase two this mech and attack a,c. Phase three these three mechs attack a,b,c,d,e.

    Bosses don't suddenly do new attacks, you look at guides you see what it does you are good. Then you just practice till you are use to the attack patterns and motions and work towards beating the raid.

    So to be clear, you are unable to grasp this specific prior?

    I have given you an example of a boss that does not have a pattern before. You incorrectly concluded that the boss did have a pattern based on something you didn't understand, and dismissed it.

    Jormungand does not have a pattern to its offensive attacks or actions. Jormungand 'gains a single empowered move at 25% health', what you would call 'phase 2'.

    Jormungand can quickly devolve into chaos if it randomly does certain moves too often or 'randomly starts just casting spells all the time' instead of using physical attacks.

    Your perception is incorrect.

    You gave one example in a very old game and I mentioned one pattern it does based on the site regardless if you like it or not.

    Give me an examples in Final Fantasy XIV if you can show me a pattern a lot of bosses are chaotic then I'll agree with you if the guides seem to show it is hard to do one for them or better impossible.

    So only examples that match your experience count? I'm unclear.

    You looked at a single site that specifically says 'Sporadically uses Horrid Roar 3x in a row below 25%'.

    spo·rad·i·cal·ly
    /spəˈradək(ə)lē/
    Learn to pronounce
    adverb
    occasionally or at irregular intervals.
    "he worked sporadically at part-time jobs"

    I don't mind if you want to switch to 'there are no modern games where high level bosses are chaotic'. I don't mind if you want to switch to 'Ok so some games have chaotic bosses but Ashes won't'.

    90% of bosses in FFXI work this same way. It's part of the game's design. You are free to claim 'that game is too old to count' or 'Ashes won't be like that', but not 'Games aren't made like that'. Understand?

    The whole point is normal game design doesn't do things like that there is one offs time to time but very rare and uncommon. I know the sleeper in EQ wasn't really meant to be beat id say those are one of those rare exception of chaotic mechanics.

    I absolutely understand you, but we are trying to align priors.

    Here.

    Raid mechanics
    Raids contain intricate combat mechanics.[13]

    Multiple phase boss fights.[13]
    Adds.[13]
    Random oriented skill usage.[13]
    Telegraphed animations, but no obvious telegraphed templates on the ground.[13]
    Fights will require location, mobility and strategy.[13]
    Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[13] – Steven Sharif

    Now please pay careful attention to this next part because I otherwise I will just have to repeat it over and over.

    1. Ashes has a lot of EQ devs, boss skills are random in EQ.
    2. Ashes' former Lead Designer has played FFXI. Boss skills are random in FFXI.
    3. The quote above is from Steven himself. There are additional quotes that further reinforce this potential approach to design.

    It does not matter if it would be an outlier to do it that way if Ashes is planning to do it that way.

    I will repeat this entire section as many times as it takes for you to understand the design of Ashes as it is currently known to exist.

    This isn't chaotic to me this is normal o.O.
    Now if they do this

    Adds

    -random types of adds strong and weak with completely random abilities every time you redo the raid
    -Skill use always generates different effects from raid to raid so different danger zones, effects etc to the point you can never plan for it and having a substantial effect on the raid (sleep where you need to be hit to wake up, electric effect you need to do a mechanics to avoid, fire you need to do a different mechanics to avoid) if they had about 10+ of these it would feel very chaotic and unpredictable to counter,

    If something is very chaotic strategy isn't going to be something easy as it will be more reaction based then strategy. The core of having very chaotic elements with mechanics and all isn't a good design at the raid becomes RNG which is frustrating cause you have no control over being killed or not. Though if they leaned more heavy on the action side and you had mobility this would be a little more fair.

    i]Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[/i][13] – Steven Sharif

    This sounds about right on what I'd expect, and doesn't sound chaotic to me. But there will be a lot less hand holding.

    Ok, let me try again so that I can see if I understand what you're saying.

    If I tell you that a boss casts a big damage spell, and while you are healing just randomly starts casting it again, is this chaotic?

    Assume that the same boss could just randomly start casting the same spell AGAIN as soon as the cooldown timer is up, instead of using any other more 'fair' ability.

    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    Is this chaotic?

    If not, what exactly is your definition of 'chaotic'?

    I don't view that as chaotic I view that as part of the fight in the skill yet it can use that you need to prepare for. There is some rng involved in getting a bad roll on what a boss can do but its nothing that you fully don't expect.
    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    This part I don't understand how are tanks stopping from getting threat? Are they worried about the spell that can damage them so they are not fully attacking and trying t guess when he uses it?


    My definition is mechanics that are not fair or there is no pattern in a boss. A pattern being what does the boss do in a fight phase 1, phase 2, phase 3. If the boss has a bunch of wipe mechanics that are random and spawn randomly I'd view that as chaotic because it comes out of your control and you are dying to rng at that point. Like the example I gave earlier if you had a raid of 40 and everyone gets hit and its random for everyone what mechs you need to do with like 10 different mechs and based ont he amount of people pre mech it can change, that would be chaotic.

    Then it isn't about what can the boss do anymore and you just having to prepare for anything and be expected to die a lot until you can get a good roll maybe.

    You are currently failing to comprehend something, or just waffling, but it sounds like you are saying 'yes, chaotic'.

    I have no specific interest in whether you consider Steven's designs bad or not. I only care that you understand them.

    One of the design elements that we're implementing into our raids is that the raid will not be exactly the same every single time. You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well. We want there to be variables that get manifested by you know what type of node got developed elsewhere. Is he going to have acolytes or cultists? What will the acolytes have skills [available] to them? What kit is the boss gonna have? What available skill repertoire will the boss be able to [wield]? ... A lot of those systems are influenced obviously by world development. So the raid kind of takes into account at what stage has the world developed: Are there two metropolises now available in the world? Okay well let's activate this skill in this skill. Now you have five metropolises, well now all these skills have been activated. Are there are they all economic nodes? Are they all military nodes? That we can change things based on that stuff. And it really is a threat assessment from the environment against the players.[12] – Steven Sharif

    Notice that this quote references 'the possibility of changing the adds' and the possibility of changes to the skills of the adds.

    It also implies that you cannot go into a raid being sure which mechanics/skills the boss will even have. You might assume that 'none of those would kill you, that wouldn't be fair'.

    I have fought Jormungand. To that, I say 'Ice Dragons don't care what you think is fair'.

    There is no waffling I've stated examples I consider so you have a direct thought you can compare one to one however you like.

    I didn't state good or bad, I said that sounds about what Id expect in a mmorpg with less hand holding. You are inserting extra information into the convo why?

    Yes I'm aware of that based on node development it can influence the PvE content and there can be changes in enemies. I think this is your bias coming in into what you want or you are overexaggerating base on what you hope or to try to prove your point. If adds spawn even if it is a surprise the first time you will know generally what to expect. Will they change the mechanics of the entire encounter I don't think so as they are just adds. The adds I'm reference would have a much large effect on the encounter I should have detailed on how that could be done but adds that involve strong mechanics as well. If you go into a dungeon and see what mobs are there around the boss you will know ahead of time as well what to expect just depends on how they design the encounter. In the end this is something we would have to see to judge it as you can do anything with design but my expectations are kept in check.

    I know this goes back to them saying they didn't want bosses and dungeons to be overly spongy and wanted to involved more mechanics if a zerg walked in as well. What I think is fair and what I judge as unfair in mechanics in being chaotic are two different things. Which normally involves a game where death can be heavily rng involved and being unable to react to mechanics properly (ie one sec starts and is randomly placed, then you get unlucky with another rng mech and you die 100% of the time). There is nothing wrong with getting unlucky and maybe one dies or you take damage and have to adjust, but different when it involves a potential raid wipe.

    Alright, let's move on from 'chaotic.

    Again from the top, since you seem to be with me now.

    1. I know that the devs of this game have worked on another game with random skill usage in encounters.
    2. I have experienced a game where random skill usage is a strong aspect of playability and success from bosses.
    3. I expect to see the same thing in Ashes.

    I accept that you, having different experiences, also have different expectations. Are we at the point now where we can each accept the other's expectations, without claiming 'it will not be that way'?

    Are you able to think 'I can see why Azherae expects bosses to be very random'?
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    In this video they bring up the sleeper from EQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBObLQJvw1k

    Please be careful not to contradict yourself about what you consider good or bad.

    I do not care about that video unless you plan to make a point with it. I refuse to make any inference from it. Focus please.

    Are you able to think 'I can see why Azherae expects bosses to be very random'?
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Any reasonable person would think action combat is in the game, so rather then thinking its impossible they would think how it can work and pushing it as far as possible in a discussion while raising some concerns they have. Right off the bat you didn't care for the discussion or thinking about possibilities so it leads to nothing but an argument.

    Reasonable people start by addressing assumptions and priors, and those must often be discussed or argued first.

    That's where we still are relative to that Tab vs Action Raid thing. Your presence would have been requested in the other thread.

    People argue with you when you challenge their priors, or bring information that shows you don't understand their priors.

    Maybe we can focus on something that is very direct and that we can actually progress on, in that case. You have one prior that is provably wrong, and I for one would like you to accept that it is provably wrong. It has nothing to do with Action or Tab. Just one thing.

    You have stated that you believe 'All Raid bosses/enemies have a pattern, it isn't just chaos'.

    This is not true, and until you are clear that it is not true, it's difficult to have that reasonable discussion you mentioned. Now, if you meant 'All Raid bosses/enemies should have a pattern", that's different, but you should accept that there are games, specifically popular games, where there are scenarios like this with no pattern, so that we can have a discussion.

    Every raid boss has patterns that is just how it is you are trying to stretch things to make it make sense with your point because you don't want to be wrong. A boss encounter does things, has stages of mechanics and you know what to expect and to plan for. Phase one does attack a,b,c. Phase two this mech and attack a,c. Phase three these three mechs attack a,b,c,d,e.

    Bosses don't suddenly do new attacks, you look at guides you see what it does you are good. Then you just practice till you are use to the attack patterns and motions and work towards beating the raid.

    So to be clear, you are unable to grasp this specific prior?

    I have given you an example of a boss that does not have a pattern before. You incorrectly concluded that the boss did have a pattern based on something you didn't understand, and dismissed it.

    Jormungand does not have a pattern to its offensive attacks or actions. Jormungand 'gains a single empowered move at 25% health', what you would call 'phase 2'.

    Jormungand can quickly devolve into chaos if it randomly does certain moves too often or 'randomly starts just casting spells all the time' instead of using physical attacks.

    Your perception is incorrect.

    You gave one example in a very old game and I mentioned one pattern it does based on the site regardless if you like it or not.

    Give me an examples in Final Fantasy XIV if you can show me a pattern a lot of bosses are chaotic then I'll agree with you if the guides seem to show it is hard to do one for them or better impossible.

    So only examples that match your experience count? I'm unclear.

    You looked at a single site that specifically says 'Sporadically uses Horrid Roar 3x in a row below 25%'.

    spo·rad·i·cal·ly
    /spəˈradək(ə)lē/
    Learn to pronounce
    adverb
    occasionally or at irregular intervals.
    "he worked sporadically at part-time jobs"

    I don't mind if you want to switch to 'there are no modern games where high level bosses are chaotic'. I don't mind if you want to switch to 'Ok so some games have chaotic bosses but Ashes won't'.

    90% of bosses in FFXI work this same way. It's part of the game's design. You are free to claim 'that game is too old to count' or 'Ashes won't be like that', but not 'Games aren't made like that'. Understand?

    The whole point is normal game design doesn't do things like that there is one offs time to time but very rare and uncommon. I know the sleeper in EQ wasn't really meant to be beat id say those are one of those rare exception of chaotic mechanics.

    I absolutely understand you, but we are trying to align priors.

    Here.

    Raid mechanics
    Raids contain intricate combat mechanics.[13]

    Multiple phase boss fights.[13]
    Adds.[13]
    Random oriented skill usage.[13]
    Telegraphed animations, but no obvious telegraphed templates on the ground.[13]
    Fights will require location, mobility and strategy.[13]
    Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[13] – Steven Sharif

    Now please pay careful attention to this next part because I otherwise I will just have to repeat it over and over.

    1. Ashes has a lot of EQ devs, boss skills are random in EQ.
    2. Ashes' former Lead Designer has played FFXI. Boss skills are random in FFXI.
    3. The quote above is from Steven himself. There are additional quotes that further reinforce this potential approach to design.

    It does not matter if it would be an outlier to do it that way if Ashes is planning to do it that way.

    I will repeat this entire section as many times as it takes for you to understand the design of Ashes as it is currently known to exist.

    This isn't chaotic to me this is normal o.O.
    Now if they do this

    Adds

    -random types of adds strong and weak with completely random abilities every time you redo the raid
    -Skill use always generates different effects from raid to raid so different danger zones, effects etc to the point you can never plan for it and having a substantial effect on the raid (sleep where you need to be hit to wake up, electric effect you need to do a mechanics to avoid, fire you need to do a different mechanics to avoid) if they had about 10+ of these it would feel very chaotic and unpredictable to counter,

    If something is very chaotic strategy isn't going to be something easy as it will be more reaction based then strategy. The core of having very chaotic elements with mechanics and all isn't a good design at the raid becomes RNG which is frustrating cause you have no control over being killed or not. Though if they leaned more heavy on the action side and you had mobility this would be a little more fair.

    i]Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[/i][13] – Steven Sharif

    This sounds about right on what I'd expect, and doesn't sound chaotic to me. But there will be a lot less hand holding.

    Ok, let me try again so that I can see if I understand what you're saying.

    If I tell you that a boss casts a big damage spell, and while you are healing just randomly starts casting it again, is this chaotic?

    Assume that the same boss could just randomly start casting the same spell AGAIN as soon as the cooldown timer is up, instead of using any other more 'fair' ability.

    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    Is this chaotic?

    If not, what exactly is your definition of 'chaotic'?

    I don't view that as chaotic I view that as part of the fight in the skill yet it can use that you need to prepare for. There is some rng involved in getting a bad roll on what a boss can do but its nothing that you fully don't expect.
    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    This part I don't understand how are tanks stopping from getting threat? Are they worried about the spell that can damage them so they are not fully attacking and trying t guess when he uses it?


    My definition is mechanics that are not fair or there is no pattern in a boss. A pattern being what does the boss do in a fight phase 1, phase 2, phase 3. If the boss has a bunch of wipe mechanics that are random and spawn randomly I'd view that as chaotic because it comes out of your control and you are dying to rng at that point. Like the example I gave earlier if you had a raid of 40 and everyone gets hit and its random for everyone what mechs you need to do with like 10 different mechs and based ont he amount of people pre mech it can change, that would be chaotic.

    Then it isn't about what can the boss do anymore and you just having to prepare for anything and be expected to die a lot until you can get a good roll maybe.

    You are currently failing to comprehend something, or just waffling, but it sounds like you are saying 'yes, chaotic'.

    I have no specific interest in whether you consider Steven's designs bad or not. I only care that you understand them.

    One of the design elements that we're implementing into our raids is that the raid will not be exactly the same every single time. You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well. We want there to be variables that get manifested by you know what type of node got developed elsewhere. Is he going to have acolytes or cultists? What will the acolytes have skills [available] to them? What kit is the boss gonna have? What available skill repertoire will the boss be able to [wield]? ... A lot of those systems are influenced obviously by world development. So the raid kind of takes into account at what stage has the world developed: Are there two metropolises now available in the world? Okay well let's activate this skill in this skill. Now you have five metropolises, well now all these skills have been activated. Are there are they all economic nodes? Are they all military nodes? That we can change things based on that stuff. And it really is a threat assessment from the environment against the players.[12] – Steven Sharif

    Notice that this quote references 'the possibility of changing the adds' and the possibility of changes to the skills of the adds.

    It also implies that you cannot go into a raid being sure which mechanics/skills the boss will even have. You might assume that 'none of those would kill you, that wouldn't be fair'.

    I have fought Jormungand. To that, I say 'Ice Dragons don't care what you think is fair'.

    There is no waffling I've stated examples I consider so you have a direct thought you can compare one to one however you like.

    I didn't state good or bad, I said that sounds about what Id expect in a mmorpg with less hand holding. You are inserting extra information into the convo why?

    Yes I'm aware of that based on node development it can influence the PvE content and there can be changes in enemies. I think this is your bias coming in into what you want or you are overexaggerating base on what you hope or to try to prove your point. If adds spawn even if it is a surprise the first time you will know generally what to expect. Will they change the mechanics of the entire encounter I don't think so as they are just adds. The adds I'm reference would have a much large effect on the encounter I should have detailed on how that could be done but adds that involve strong mechanics as well. If you go into a dungeon and see what mobs are there around the boss you will know ahead of time as well what to expect just depends on how they design the encounter. In the end this is something we would have to see to judge it as you can do anything with design but my expectations are kept in check.

    I know this goes back to them saying they didn't want bosses and dungeons to be overly spongy and wanted to involved more mechanics if a zerg walked in as well. What I think is fair and what I judge as unfair in mechanics in being chaotic are two different things. Which normally involves a game where death can be heavily rng involved and being unable to react to mechanics properly (ie one sec starts and is randomly placed, then you get unlucky with another rng mech and you die 100% of the time). There is nothing wrong with getting unlucky and maybe one dies or you take damage and have to adjust, but different when it involves a potential raid wipe.

    Alright, let's move on from 'chaotic.

    Again from the top, since you seem to be with me now.

    1. I know that the devs of this game have worked on another game with random skill usage in encounters.
    2. I have experienced a game where random skill usage is a strong aspect of playability and success from bosses.
    3. I expect to see the same thing in Ashes.

    I accept that you, having different experiences, also have different expectations. Are we at the point now where we can each accept the other's expectations, without claiming 'it will not be that way'?

    Are you able to think 'I can see why Azherae expects bosses to be very random'?

    Random skill usage isn't chaotic, unless those skills have chaotic effects as i had mentioned earlier like upon being hit you have one of 10 random debuffs that can cause your death or a raid wipe.

    When I'm talking about random skills, I'm talking every time you fight the boss it has new abilities that also involve heavy effects on the raid leading to wipes. So if raid wipes first time boss will now have new skills that they do not know about that involve new mechanics. Though of course no one knows what they are going to do, i don't see them doing something like this.

    I am not talking about skills being used in the exact same pattern every time, though some patterns may exist in design to help players as well and give hints. Having higher and lower points in the raid of difficulty based on the flow and design they have.

  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    In this video they bring up the sleeper from EQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBObLQJvw1k

    Please be careful not to contradict yourself about what you consider good or bad.

    I do not care about that video unless you plan to make a point with it. I refuse to make any inference from it. Focus please.

    Are you able to think 'I can see why Azherae expects bosses to be very random'?

    This is a direct example of chaotic to me more on the worse side.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Any reasonable person would think action combat is in the game, so rather then thinking its impossible they would think how it can work and pushing it as far as possible in a discussion while raising some concerns they have. Right off the bat you didn't care for the discussion or thinking about possibilities so it leads to nothing but an argument.

    Reasonable people start by addressing assumptions and priors, and those must often be discussed or argued first.

    That's where we still are relative to that Tab vs Action Raid thing. Your presence would have been requested in the other thread.

    People argue with you when you challenge their priors, or bring information that shows you don't understand their priors.

    Maybe we can focus on something that is very direct and that we can actually progress on, in that case. You have one prior that is provably wrong, and I for one would like you to accept that it is provably wrong. It has nothing to do with Action or Tab. Just one thing.

    You have stated that you believe 'All Raid bosses/enemies have a pattern, it isn't just chaos'.

    This is not true, and until you are clear that it is not true, it's difficult to have that reasonable discussion you mentioned. Now, if you meant 'All Raid bosses/enemies should have a pattern", that's different, but you should accept that there are games, specifically popular games, where there are scenarios like this with no pattern, so that we can have a discussion.

    Every raid boss has patterns that is just how it is you are trying to stretch things to make it make sense with your point because you don't want to be wrong. A boss encounter does things, has stages of mechanics and you know what to expect and to plan for. Phase one does attack a,b,c. Phase two this mech and attack a,c. Phase three these three mechs attack a,b,c,d,e.

    Bosses don't suddenly do new attacks, you look at guides you see what it does you are good. Then you just practice till you are use to the attack patterns and motions and work towards beating the raid.

    So to be clear, you are unable to grasp this specific prior?

    I have given you an example of a boss that does not have a pattern before. You incorrectly concluded that the boss did have a pattern based on something you didn't understand, and dismissed it.

    Jormungand does not have a pattern to its offensive attacks or actions. Jormungand 'gains a single empowered move at 25% health', what you would call 'phase 2'.

    Jormungand can quickly devolve into chaos if it randomly does certain moves too often or 'randomly starts just casting spells all the time' instead of using physical attacks.

    Your perception is incorrect.

    You gave one example in a very old game and I mentioned one pattern it does based on the site regardless if you like it or not.

    Give me an examples in Final Fantasy XIV if you can show me a pattern a lot of bosses are chaotic then I'll agree with you if the guides seem to show it is hard to do one for them or better impossible.

    So only examples that match your experience count? I'm unclear.

    You looked at a single site that specifically says 'Sporadically uses Horrid Roar 3x in a row below 25%'.

    spo·rad·i·cal·ly
    /spəˈradək(ə)lē/
    Learn to pronounce
    adverb
    occasionally or at irregular intervals.
    "he worked sporadically at part-time jobs"

    I don't mind if you want to switch to 'there are no modern games where high level bosses are chaotic'. I don't mind if you want to switch to 'Ok so some games have chaotic bosses but Ashes won't'.

    90% of bosses in FFXI work this same way. It's part of the game's design. You are free to claim 'that game is too old to count' or 'Ashes won't be like that', but not 'Games aren't made like that'. Understand?

    The whole point is normal game design doesn't do things like that there is one offs time to time but very rare and uncommon. I know the sleeper in EQ wasn't really meant to be beat id say those are one of those rare exception of chaotic mechanics.

    I absolutely understand you, but we are trying to align priors.

    Here.

    Raid mechanics
    Raids contain intricate combat mechanics.[13]

    Multiple phase boss fights.[13]
    Adds.[13]
    Random oriented skill usage.[13]
    Telegraphed animations, but no obvious telegraphed templates on the ground.[13]
    Fights will require location, mobility and strategy.[13]
    Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[13] – Steven Sharif

    Now please pay careful attention to this next part because I otherwise I will just have to repeat it over and over.

    1. Ashes has a lot of EQ devs, boss skills are random in EQ.
    2. Ashes' former Lead Designer has played FFXI. Boss skills are random in FFXI.
    3. The quote above is from Steven himself. There are additional quotes that further reinforce this potential approach to design.

    It does not matter if it would be an outlier to do it that way if Ashes is planning to do it that way.

    I will repeat this entire section as many times as it takes for you to understand the design of Ashes as it is currently known to exist.

    This isn't chaotic to me this is normal o.O.
    Now if they do this

    Adds

    -random types of adds strong and weak with completely random abilities every time you redo the raid
    -Skill use always generates different effects from raid to raid so different danger zones, effects etc to the point you can never plan for it and having a substantial effect on the raid (sleep where you need to be hit to wake up, electric effect you need to do a mechanics to avoid, fire you need to do a different mechanics to avoid) if they had about 10+ of these it would feel very chaotic and unpredictable to counter,

    If something is very chaotic strategy isn't going to be something easy as it will be more reaction based then strategy. The core of having very chaotic elements with mechanics and all isn't a good design at the raid becomes RNG which is frustrating cause you have no control over being killed or not. Though if they leaned more heavy on the action side and you had mobility this would be a little more fair.

    i]Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[/i][13] – Steven Sharif

    This sounds about right on what I'd expect, and doesn't sound chaotic to me. But there will be a lot less hand holding.

    Ok, let me try again so that I can see if I understand what you're saying.

    If I tell you that a boss casts a big damage spell, and while you are healing just randomly starts casting it again, is this chaotic?

    Assume that the same boss could just randomly start casting the same spell AGAIN as soon as the cooldown timer is up, instead of using any other more 'fair' ability.

    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    Is this chaotic?

    If not, what exactly is your definition of 'chaotic'?

    I don't view that as chaotic I view that as part of the fight in the skill yet it can use that you need to prepare for. There is some rng involved in getting a bad roll on what a boss can do but its nothing that you fully don't expect.
    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    This part I don't understand how are tanks stopping from getting threat? Are they worried about the spell that can damage them so they are not fully attacking and trying t guess when he uses it?


    My definition is mechanics that are not fair or there is no pattern in a boss. A pattern being what does the boss do in a fight phase 1, phase 2, phase 3. If the boss has a bunch of wipe mechanics that are random and spawn randomly I'd view that as chaotic because it comes out of your control and you are dying to rng at that point. Like the example I gave earlier if you had a raid of 40 and everyone gets hit and its random for everyone what mechs you need to do with like 10 different mechs and based ont he amount of people pre mech it can change, that would be chaotic.

    Then it isn't about what can the boss do anymore and you just having to prepare for anything and be expected to die a lot until you can get a good roll maybe.

    You are currently failing to comprehend something, or just waffling, but it sounds like you are saying 'yes, chaotic'.

    I have no specific interest in whether you consider Steven's designs bad or not. I only care that you understand them.

    N

    Notice that this quote references 'the possibility of changing the adds' and the possibility of changes to the skills of the adds.

    It also implies that you cannot go into a raid being sure which mechanics/skills the boss will even have. You might assume that 'none of those would kill you, that wouldn't be fair'.

    I have fought Jormungand. To that, I say 'Ice Dragons don't care what you think is fair'.

    There is no waffling I've stated examples I consider so you have a direct thought you can compare one to one however you like.

    I didn't state good or bad, I said that sounds about what Id expect in a mmorpg with less hand holding. You are inserting extra information into the convo why?

    Yes I'm aware of that based on node development it can influence the PvE content and there can be changes in enemies. I think this is your bias coming in into what you want or you are overexaggerating base on what you hope or to try to prove your point. If adds spawn even if it is a surprise the first time you will know generally what to expect. Will they change the mechanics of the entire encounter I don't think so as they are just adds. The adds I'm reference would have a much large effect on the encounter I should have detailed on how that could be done but adds that involve strong mechanics as well. If you go into a dungeon and see what mobs are there around the boss you will know ahead of time as well what to expect just depends on how they design the encounter. In the end this is something we would have to see to judge it as you can do anything with design but my expectations are kept in check.

    I know this goes back to them saying they didn't want bosses and dungeons to be overly spongy and wanted to involved more mechanics if a zerg walked in as well. What I think is fair and what I judge as unfair in mechanics in being chaotic are two different things. Which normally involves a game where death can be heavily rng involved and being unable to react to mechanics properly (ie one sec starts and is randomly placed, then you get unlucky with another rng mech and you die 100% of the time). There is nothing wrong with getting unlucky and maybe one dies or you take damage and have to adjust, but different when it involves a potential raid wipe.

    Alright, let's move on from 'chaotic.

    Again from the top, since you seem to be with me now.

    1. I know that the devs of this game have worked on another game with random skill usage in encounters.
    2. I have experienced a game where random skill usage is a strong aspect of playability and success from bosses.
    3. I expect to see the same thing in Ashes.

    I accept that you, having different experiences, also have different expectations. Are we at the point now where we can each accept the other's expectations, without claiming 'it will not be that way'?

    Are you able to think 'I can see why Azherae expects bosses to be very random'?

    Random skill usage isn't chaotic, unless those skills have chaotic effects as i had mentioned earlier like upon being hit you have one of 10 random debuffs that can cause your death or a raid wipe.

    When I'm talking about random skills, I'm talking every time you fight the boss it has new abilities that also involve heavy effects on the raid leading to wipes. So if raid wipes first time boss will now have new skills that they do not know about that involve new mechanics. Though of course no one knows what they are going to do, i don't see them doing something like this.

    I am not talking about skills being used in the exact same pattern every time, though some patterns may exist in design to help players as well and give hints. Having higher and lower points in the raid of difficulty based on the flow and design they have.

    No problem, it's cool, I'll paste it again. I'll bold the part.

    One of the design elements that we're implementing into our raids is that the raid will not be exactly the same every single time. You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well. We want there to be variables that get manifested by you know what type of node got developed elsewhere. Is he going to have acolytes or cultists? What will the acolytes have skills [available] to them? What kit is the boss gonna have? What available skill repertoire will the boss be able to [wield]? ... A lot of those systems are influenced obviously by world development. So the raid kind of takes into account at what stage has the world developed: Are there two metropolises now available in the world? Okay well let's activate this skill in this skill. Now you have five metropolises, well now all these skills have been activated. Are there are they all economic nodes? Are they all military nodes? That we can change things based on that stuff. And it really is a threat assessment from the environment against the players.[12] – Steven Sharif

    Can you understand why I do expect them to do something like this?
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Any reasonable person would think action combat is in the game, so rather then thinking its impossible they would think how it can work and pushing it as far as possible in a discussion while raising some concerns they have. Right off the bat you didn't care for the discussion or thinking about possibilities so it leads to nothing but an argument.

    Reasonable people start by addressing assumptions and priors, and those must often be discussed or argued first.

    That's where we still are relative to that Tab vs Action Raid thing. Your presence would have been requested in the other thread.

    People argue with you when you challenge their priors, or bring information that shows you don't understand their priors.

    Maybe we can focus on something that is very direct and that we can actually progress on, in that case. You have one prior that is provably wrong, and I for one would like you to accept that it is provably wrong. It has nothing to do with Action or Tab. Just one thing.

    You have stated that you believe 'All Raid bosses/enemies have a pattern, it isn't just chaos'.

    This is not true, and until you are clear that it is not true, it's difficult to have that reasonable discussion you mentioned. Now, if you meant 'All Raid bosses/enemies should have a pattern", that's different, but you should accept that there are games, specifically popular games, where there are scenarios like this with no pattern, so that we can have a discussion.

    Every raid boss has patterns that is just how it is you are trying to stretch things to make it make sense with your point because you don't want to be wrong. A boss encounter does things, has stages of mechanics and you know what to expect and to plan for. Phase one does attack a,b,c. Phase two this mech and attack a,c. Phase three these three mechs attack a,b,c,d,e.

    Bosses don't suddenly do new attacks, you look at guides you see what it does you are good. Then you just practice till you are use to the attack patterns and motions and work towards beating the raid.

    So to be clear, you are unable to grasp this specific prior?

    I have given you an example of a boss that does not have a pattern before. You incorrectly concluded that the boss did have a pattern based on something you didn't understand, and dismissed it.

    Jormungand does not have a pattern to its offensive attacks or actions. Jormungand 'gains a single empowered move at 25% health', what you would call 'phase 2'.

    Jormungand can quickly devolve into chaos if it randomly does certain moves too often or 'randomly starts just casting spells all the time' instead of using physical attacks.

    Your perception is incorrect.

    You gave one example in a very old game and I mentioned one pattern it does based on the site regardless if you like it or not.

    Give me an examples in Final Fantasy XIV if you can show me a pattern a lot of bosses are chaotic then I'll agree with you if the guides seem to show it is hard to do one for them or better impossible.

    So only examples that match your experience count? I'm unclear.

    You looked at a single site that specifically says 'Sporadically uses Horrid Roar 3x in a row below 25%'.

    spo·rad·i·cal·ly
    /spəˈradək(ə)lē/
    Learn to pronounce
    adverb
    occasionally or at irregular intervals.
    "he worked sporadically at part-time jobs"

    I don't mind if you want to switch to 'there are no modern games where high level bosses are chaotic'. I don't mind if you want to switch to 'Ok so some games have chaotic bosses but Ashes won't'.

    90% of bosses in FFXI work this same way. It's part of the game's design. You are free to claim 'that game is too old to count' or 'Ashes won't be like that', but not 'Games aren't made like that'. Understand?

    The whole point is normal game design doesn't do things like that there is one offs time to time but very rare and uncommon. I know the sleeper in EQ wasn't really meant to be beat id say those are one of those rare exception of chaotic mechanics.

    I absolutely understand you, but we are trying to align priors.

    Here.

    Raid mechanics
    Raids contain intricate combat mechanics.[13]

    Multiple phase boss fights.[13]
    Adds.[13]
    Random oriented skill usage.[13]
    Telegraphed animations, but no obvious telegraphed templates on the ground.[13]
    Fights will require location, mobility and strategy.[13]
    Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[13] – Steven Sharif

    Now please pay careful attention to this next part because I otherwise I will just have to repeat it over and over.

    1. Ashes has a lot of EQ devs, boss skills are random in EQ.
    2. Ashes' former Lead Designer has played FFXI. Boss skills are random in FFXI.
    3. The quote above is from Steven himself. There are additional quotes that further reinforce this potential approach to design.

    It does not matter if it would be an outlier to do it that way if Ashes is planning to do it that way.

    I will repeat this entire section as many times as it takes for you to understand the design of Ashes as it is currently known to exist.

    This isn't chaotic to me this is normal o.O.
    Now if they do this

    Adds

    -random types of adds strong and weak with completely random abilities every time you redo the raid
    -Skill use always generates different effects from raid to raid so different danger zones, effects etc to the point you can never plan for it and having a substantial effect on the raid (sleep where you need to be hit to wake up, electric effect you need to do a mechanics to avoid, fire you need to do a different mechanics to avoid) if they had about 10+ of these it would feel very chaotic and unpredictable to counter,

    If something is very chaotic strategy isn't going to be something easy as it will be more reaction based then strategy. The core of having very chaotic elements with mechanics and all isn't a good design at the raid becomes RNG which is frustrating cause you have no control over being killed or not. Though if they leaned more heavy on the action side and you had mobility this would be a little more fair.

    i]Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[/i][13] – Steven Sharif

    This sounds about right on what I'd expect, and doesn't sound chaotic to me. But there will be a lot less hand holding.

    Ok, let me try again so that I can see if I understand what you're saying.

    If I tell you that a boss casts a big damage spell, and while you are healing just randomly starts casting it again, is this chaotic?

    Assume that the same boss could just randomly start casting the same spell AGAIN as soon as the cooldown timer is up, instead of using any other more 'fair' ability.

    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    Is this chaotic?

    If not, what exactly is your definition of 'chaotic'?

    I don't view that as chaotic I view that as part of the fight in the skill yet it can use that you need to prepare for. There is some rng involved in getting a bad roll on what a boss can do but its nothing that you fully don't expect.
    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    This part I don't understand how are tanks stopping from getting threat? Are they worried about the spell that can damage them so they are not fully attacking and trying t guess when he uses it?


    My definition is mechanics that are not fair or there is no pattern in a boss. A pattern being what does the boss do in a fight phase 1, phase 2, phase 3. If the boss has a bunch of wipe mechanics that are random and spawn randomly I'd view that as chaotic because it comes out of your control and you are dying to rng at that point. Like the example I gave earlier if you had a raid of 40 and everyone gets hit and its random for everyone what mechs you need to do with like 10 different mechs and based ont he amount of people pre mech it can change, that would be chaotic.

    Then it isn't about what can the boss do anymore and you just having to prepare for anything and be expected to die a lot until you can get a good roll maybe.

    You are currently failing to comprehend something, or just waffling, but it sounds like you are saying 'yes, chaotic'.

    I have no specific interest in whether you consider Steven's designs bad or not. I only care that you understand them.

    N

    Notice that this quote references 'the possibility of changing the adds' and the possibility of changes to the skills of the adds.

    It also implies that you cannot go into a raid being sure which mechanics/skills the boss will even have. You might assume that 'none of those would kill you, that wouldn't be fair'.

    I have fought Jormungand. To that, I say 'Ice Dragons don't care what you think is fair'.

    There is no waffling I've stated examples I consider so you have a direct thought you can compare one to one however you like.

    I didn't state good or bad, I said that sounds about what Id expect in a mmorpg with less hand holding. You are inserting extra information into the convo why?

    Yes I'm aware of that based on node development it can influence the PvE content and there can be changes in enemies. I think this is your bias coming in into what you want or you are overexaggerating base on what you hope or to try to prove your point. If adds spawn even if it is a surprise the first time you will know generally what to expect. Will they change the mechanics of the entire encounter I don't think so as they are just adds. The adds I'm reference would have a much large effect on the encounter I should have detailed on how that could be done but adds that involve strong mechanics as well. If you go into a dungeon and see what mobs are there around the boss you will know ahead of time as well what to expect just depends on how they design the encounter. In the end this is something we would have to see to judge it as you can do anything with design but my expectations are kept in check.

    I know this goes back to them saying they didn't want bosses and dungeons to be overly spongy and wanted to involved more mechanics if a zerg walked in as well. What I think is fair and what I judge as unfair in mechanics in being chaotic are two different things. Which normally involves a game where death can be heavily rng involved and being unable to react to mechanics properly (ie one sec starts and is randomly placed, then you get unlucky with another rng mech and you die 100% of the time). There is nothing wrong with getting unlucky and maybe one dies or you take damage and have to adjust, but different when it involves a potential raid wipe.

    Alright, let's move on from 'chaotic.

    Again from the top, since you seem to be with me now.

    1. I know that the devs of this game have worked on another game with random skill usage in encounters.
    2. I have experienced a game where random skill usage is a strong aspect of playability and success from bosses.
    3. I expect to see the same thing in Ashes.

    I accept that you, having different experiences, also have different expectations. Are we at the point now where we can each accept the other's expectations, without claiming 'it will not be that way'?

    Are you able to think 'I can see why Azherae expects bosses to be very random'?

    Random skill usage isn't chaotic, unless those skills have chaotic effects as i had mentioned earlier like upon being hit you have one of 10 random debuffs that can cause your death or a raid wipe.

    When I'm talking about random skills, I'm talking every time you fight the boss it has new abilities that also involve heavy effects on the raid leading to wipes. So if raid wipes first time boss will now have new skills that they do not know about that involve new mechanics. Though of course no one knows what they are going to do, i don't see them doing something like this.

    I am not talking about skills being used in the exact same pattern every time, though some patterns may exist in design to help players as well and give hints. Having higher and lower points in the raid of difficulty based on the flow and design they have.

    No problem, it's cool, I'll paste it again. I'll bold the part.

    One of the design elements that we're implementing into our raids is that the raid will not be exactly the same every single time. You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well. We want there to be variables that get manifested by you know what type of node got developed elsewhere. Is he going to have acolytes or cultists? What will the acolytes have skills [available] to them? What kit is the boss gonna have? What available skill repertoire will the boss be able to [wield]? ... A lot of those systems are influenced obviously by world development. So the raid kind of takes into account at what stage has the world developed: Are there two metropolises now available in the world? Okay well let's activate this skill in this skill. Now you have five metropolises, well now all these skills have been activated. Are there are they all economic nodes? Are they all military nodes? That we can change things based on that stuff. And it really is a threat assessment from the environment against the players.[12] – Steven Sharif

    Can you understand why I do expect them to do something like this?

    I think you are putting too much emphasis on content changing as you have a thought or desire you want and you are trying to put that in connection with it. What is the content that will change, how will that effect the raid, will it be in a large way, will different heavy mechanics be changed, how long do session last, how often do the repeat, what are the changes to add abilities and do they involve or change the mechanics , are the changes involving wipe mechanics.

    Until we see the game its better to keep expectations in check, I don't potentially see those as being chaotic depending on how those questions are answered and what they do with the game design. That doesn't mean the content wont be extremely hard if they make it to do so.

    If you are expecting them to have different move sets time to time and some surprise attacks sure I can see that. But we are talking about chaotic and I don't deem that chaotic.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Any reasonable person would think action combat is in the game, so rather then thinking its impossible they would think how it can work and pushing it as far as possible in a discussion while raising some concerns they have. Right off the bat you didn't care for the discussion or thinking about possibilities so it leads to nothing but an argument.

    Reasonable people start by addressing assumptions and priors, and those must often be discussed or argued first.

    That's where we still are relative to that Tab vs Action Raid thing. Your presence would have been requested in the other thread.

    People argue with you when you challenge their priors, or bring information that shows you don't understand their priors.

    Maybe we can focus on something that is very direct and that we can actually progress on, in that case. You have one prior that is provably wrong, and I for one would like you to accept that it is provably wrong. It has nothing to do with Action or Tab. Just one thing.

    You have stated that you believe 'All Raid bosses/enemies have a pattern, it isn't just chaos'.

    This is not true, and until you are clear that it is not true, it's difficult to have that reasonable discussion you mentioned. Now, if you meant 'All Raid bosses/enemies should have a pattern", that's different, but you should accept that there are games, specifically popular games, where there are scenarios like this with no pattern, so that we can have a discussion.

    Every raid boss has patterns that is just how it is you are trying to stretch things to make it make sense with your point because you don't want to be wrong. A boss encounter does things, has stages of mechanics and you know what to expect and to plan for. Phase one does attack a,b,c. Phase two this mech and attack a,c. Phase three these three mechs attack a,b,c,d,e.

    Bosses don't suddenly do new attacks, you look at guides you see what it does you are good. Then you just practice till you are use to the attack patterns and motions and work towards beating the raid.

    So to be clear, you are unable to grasp this specific prior?

    I have given you an example of a boss that does not have a pattern before. You incorrectly concluded that the boss did have a pattern based on something you didn't understand, and dismissed it.

    Jormungand does not have a pattern to its offensive attacks or actions. Jormungand 'gains a single empowered move at 25% health', what you would call 'phase 2'.

    Jormungand can quickly devolve into chaos if it randomly does certain moves too often or 'randomly starts just casting spells all the time' instead of using physical attacks.

    Your perception is incorrect.

    You gave one example in a very old game and I mentioned one pattern it does based on the site regardless if you like it or not.

    Give me an examples in Final Fantasy XIV if you can show me a pattern a lot of bosses are chaotic then I'll agree with you if the guides seem to show it is hard to do one for them or better impossible.

    So only examples that match your experience count? I'm unclear.

    You looked at a single site that specifically says 'Sporadically uses Horrid Roar 3x in a row below 25%'.

    spo·rad·i·cal·ly
    /spəˈradək(ə)lē/
    Learn to pronounce
    adverb
    occasionally or at irregular intervals.
    "he worked sporadically at part-time jobs"

    I don't mind if you want to switch to 'there are no modern games where high level bosses are chaotic'. I don't mind if you want to switch to 'Ok so some games have chaotic bosses but Ashes won't'.

    90% of bosses in FFXI work this same way. It's part of the game's design. You are free to claim 'that game is too old to count' or 'Ashes won't be like that', but not 'Games aren't made like that'. Understand?

    The whole point is normal game design doesn't do things like that there is one offs time to time but very rare and uncommon. I know the sleeper in EQ wasn't really meant to be beat id say those are one of those rare exception of chaotic mechanics.

    I absolutely understand you, but we are trying to align priors.

    Here.

    Raid mechanics
    Raids contain intricate combat mechanics.[13]

    Multiple phase boss fights.[13]
    Adds.[13]
    Random oriented skill usage.[13]
    Telegraphed animations, but no obvious telegraphed templates on the ground.[13]
    Fights will require location, mobility and strategy.[13]
    Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[13] – Steven Sharif

    Now please pay careful attention to this next part because I otherwise I will just have to repeat it over and over.

    1. Ashes has a lot of EQ devs, boss skills are random in EQ.
    2. Ashes' former Lead Designer has played FFXI. Boss skills are random in FFXI.
    3. The quote above is from Steven himself. There are additional quotes that further reinforce this potential approach to design.

    It does not matter if it would be an outlier to do it that way if Ashes is planning to do it that way.

    I will repeat this entire section as many times as it takes for you to understand the design of Ashes as it is currently known to exist.

    This isn't chaotic to me this is normal o.O.
    Now if they do this

    Adds

    -random types of adds strong and weak with completely random abilities every time you redo the raid
    -Skill use always generates different effects from raid to raid so different danger zones, effects etc to the point you can never plan for it and having a substantial effect on the raid (sleep where you need to be hit to wake up, electric effect you need to do a mechanics to avoid, fire you need to do a different mechanics to avoid) if they had about 10+ of these it would feel very chaotic and unpredictable to counter,

    If something is very chaotic strategy isn't going to be something easy as it will be more reaction based then strategy. The core of having very chaotic elements with mechanics and all isn't a good design at the raid becomes RNG which is frustrating cause you have no control over being killed or not. Though if they leaned more heavy on the action side and you had mobility this would be a little more fair.

    i]Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[/i][13] – Steven Sharif

    This sounds about right on what I'd expect, and doesn't sound chaotic to me. But there will be a lot less hand holding.

    Ok, let me try again so that I can see if I understand what you're saying.

    If I tell you that a boss casts a big damage spell, and while you are healing just randomly starts casting it again, is this chaotic?

    Assume that the same boss could just randomly start casting the same spell AGAIN as soon as the cooldown timer is up, instead of using any other more 'fair' ability.

    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    Is this chaotic?

    If not, what exactly is your definition of 'chaotic'?

    I don't view that as chaotic I view that as part of the fight in the skill yet it can use that you need to prepare for. There is some rng involved in getting a bad roll on what a boss can do but its nothing that you fully don't expect.
    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    This part I don't understand how are tanks stopping from getting threat? Are they worried about the spell that can damage them so they are not fully attacking and trying t guess when he uses it?


    My definition is mechanics that are not fair or there is no pattern in a boss. A pattern being what does the boss do in a fight phase 1, phase 2, phase 3. If the boss has a bunch of wipe mechanics that are random and spawn randomly I'd view that as chaotic because it comes out of your control and you are dying to rng at that point. Like the example I gave earlier if you had a raid of 40 and everyone gets hit and its random for everyone what mechs you need to do with like 10 different mechs and based ont he amount of people pre mech it can change, that would be chaotic.

    Then it isn't about what can the boss do anymore and you just having to prepare for anything and be expected to die a lot until you can get a good roll maybe.

    You are currently failing to comprehend something, or just waffling, but it sounds like you are saying 'yes, chaotic'.

    I have no specific interest in whether you consider Steven's designs bad or not. I only care that you understand them.

    N

    Notice that this quote references 'the possibility of changing the adds' and the possibility of changes to the skills of the adds.

    It also implies that you cannot go into a raid being sure which mechanics/skills the boss will even have. You might assume that 'none of those would kill you, that wouldn't be fair'.

    I have fought Jormungand. To that, I say 'Ice Dragons don't care what you think is fair'.

    There is no waffling I've stated examples I consider so you have a direct thought you can compare one to one however you like.

    I didn't state good or bad, I said that sounds about what Id expect in a mmorpg with less hand holding. You are inserting extra information into the convo why?

    Yes I'm aware of that based on node development it can influence the PvE content and there can be changes in enemies. I think this is your bias coming in into what you want or you are overexaggerating base on what you hope or to try to prove your point. If adds spawn even if it is a surprise the first time you will know generally what to expect. Will they change the mechanics of the entire encounter I don't think so as they are just adds. The adds I'm reference would have a much large effect on the encounter I should have detailed on how that could be done but adds that involve strong mechanics as well. If you go into a dungeon and see what mobs are there around the boss you will know ahead of time as well what to expect just depends on how they design the encounter. In the end this is something we would have to see to judge it as you can do anything with design but my expectations are kept in check.

    I know this goes back to them saying they didn't want bosses and dungeons to be overly spongy and wanted to involved more mechanics if a zerg walked in as well. What I think is fair and what I judge as unfair in mechanics in being chaotic are two different things. Which normally involves a game where death can be heavily rng involved and being unable to react to mechanics properly (ie one sec starts and is randomly placed, then you get unlucky with another rng mech and you die 100% of the time). There is nothing wrong with getting unlucky and maybe one dies or you take damage and have to adjust, but different when it involves a potential raid wipe.

    Alright, let's move on from 'chaotic.

    Again from the top, since you seem to be with me now.

    1. I know that the devs of this game have worked on another game with random skill usage in encounters.
    2. I have experienced a game where random skill usage is a strong aspect of playability and success from bosses.
    3. I expect to see the same thing in Ashes.

    I accept that you, having different experiences, also have different expectations. Are we at the point now where we can each accept the other's expectations, without claiming 'it will not be that way'?

    Are you able to think 'I can see why Azherae expects bosses to be very random'?

    Random skill usage isn't chaotic, unless those skills have chaotic effects as i had mentioned earlier like upon being hit you have one of 10 random debuffs that can cause your death or a raid wipe.

    When I'm talking about random skills, I'm talking every time you fight the boss it has new abilities that also involve heavy effects on the raid leading to wipes. So if raid wipes first time boss will now have new skills that they do not know about that involve new mechanics. Though of course no one knows what they are going to do, i don't see them doing something like this.

    I am not talking about skills being used in the exact same pattern every time, though some patterns may exist in design to help players as well and give hints. Having higher and lower points in the raid of difficulty based on the flow and design they have.

    No problem, it's cool, I'll paste it again. I'll bold the part.

    One of the design elements that we're implementing into our raids is that the raid will not be exactly the same every single time. You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well. We want there to be variables that get manifested by you know what type of node got developed elsewhere. Is he going to have acolytes or cultists? What will the acolytes have skills [available] to them? What kit is the boss gonna have? What available skill repertoire will the boss be able to [wield]? ... A lot of those systems are influenced obviously by world development. So the raid kind of takes into account at what stage has the world developed: Are there two metropolises now available in the world? Okay well let's activate this skill in this skill. Now you have five metropolises, well now all these skills have been activated. Are there are they all economic nodes? Are they all military nodes? That we can change things based on that stuff. And it really is a threat assessment from the environment against the players.[12] – Steven Sharif

    Can you understand why I do expect them to do something like this?

    I think you are putting too much emphasis on content changing as you have a thought or desire you want and you are trying to put that in connection with it. What is the content that will change, how will that effect the raid, will it be in a large way, will different heavy mechanics be changed, how long do session last, how often do the repeat, what are the changes to add abilities and do they involve or change the mechanics , are the changes involving wipe mechanics.

    Until we see the game its better to keep expectations in check, I don't potentially see those as being chaotic depending on how those questions are answered and what they do with the game design. That doesn't mean the content wont be extremely hard if they make it to do so.

    If you are expecting them to have different move sets time to time and some surprise attacks sure I can see that. But we are talking about chaotic and I don't deem that chaotic.

    This is fine, because that is your opinion. you have an opinion that I am putting a lot of emphasis on content changing.

    So are we at 'there is a possibility that when Steven says that he thinks the compelling aspect of Ashes Raiding will be difficulty in achieving the content and in content changing, he means that the content will significantly change'?

    You don't need to believe this means 'big changes' or 'small changes'. Only 'compelling and difficult' changes. Good enough?

    EDIT: In case it is unclear, I have completely conceded the point about the word 'chaotic' to you and am no longer addressing it.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Any reasonable person would think action combat is in the game, so rather then thinking its impossible they would think how it can work and pushing it as far as possible in a discussion while raising some concerns they have. Right off the bat you didn't care for the discussion or thinking about possibilities so it leads to nothing but an argument.

    Reasonable people start by addressing assumptions and priors, and those must often be discussed or argued first.

    That's where we still are relative to that Tab vs Action Raid thing. Your presence would have been requested in the other thread.

    People argue with you when you challenge their priors, or bring information that shows you don't understand their priors.

    Maybe we can focus on something that is very direct and that we can actually progress on, in that case. You have one prior that is provably wrong, and I for one would like you to accept that it is provably wrong. It has nothing to do with Action or Tab. Just one thing.

    You have stated that you believe 'All Raid bosses/enemies have a pattern, it isn't just chaos'.

    This is not true, and until you are clear that it is not true, it's difficult to have that reasonable discussion you mentioned. Now, if you meant 'All Raid bosses/enemies should have a pattern", that's different, but you should accept that there are games, specifically popular games, where there are scenarios like this with no pattern, so that we can have a discussion.

    Every raid boss has patterns that is just how it is you are trying to stretch things to make it make sense with your point because you don't want to be wrong. A boss encounter does things, has stages of mechanics and you know what to expect and to plan for. Phase one does attack a,b,c. Phase two this mech and attack a,c. Phase three these three mechs attack a,b,c,d,e.

    Bosses don't suddenly do new attacks, you look at guides you see what it does you are good. Then you just practice till you are use to the attack patterns and motions and work towards beating the raid.

    So to be clear, you are unable to grasp this specific prior?

    I have given you an example of a boss that does not have a pattern before. You incorrectly concluded that the boss did have a pattern based on something you didn't understand, and dismissed it.

    Jormungand does not have a pattern to its offensive attacks or actions. Jormungand 'gains a single empowered move at 25% health', what you would call 'phase 2'.

    Jormungand can quickly devolve into chaos if it randomly does certain moves too often or 'randomly starts just casting spells all the time' instead of using physical attacks.

    Your perception is incorrect.

    You gave one example in a very old game and I mentioned one pattern it does based on the site regardless if you like it or not.

    Give me an examples in Final Fantasy XIV if you can show me a pattern a lot of bosses are chaotic then I'll agree with you if the guides seem to show it is hard to do one for them or better impossible.

    So only examples that match your experience count? I'm unclear.

    You looked at a single site that specifically says 'Sporadically uses Horrid Roar 3x in a row below 25%'.

    spo·rad·i·cal·ly
    /spəˈradək(ə)lē/
    Learn to pronounce
    adverb
    occasionally or at irregular intervals.
    "he worked sporadically at part-time jobs"

    I don't mind if you want to switch to 'there are no modern games where high level bosses are chaotic'. I don't mind if you want to switch to 'Ok so some games have chaotic bosses but Ashes won't'.

    90% of bosses in FFXI work this same way. It's part of the game's design. You are free to claim 'that game is too old to count' or 'Ashes won't be like that', but not 'Games aren't made like that'. Understand?

    The whole point is normal game design doesn't do things like that there is one offs time to time but very rare and uncommon. I know the sleeper in EQ wasn't really meant to be beat id say those are one of those rare exception of chaotic mechanics.

    I absolutely understand you, but we are trying to align priors.

    Here.

    Raid mechanics
    Raids contain intricate combat mechanics.[13]

    Multiple phase boss fights.[13]
    Adds.[13]
    Random oriented skill usage.[13]
    Telegraphed animations, but no obvious telegraphed templates on the ground.[13]
    Fights will require location, mobility and strategy.[13]
    Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[13] – Steven Sharif

    Now please pay careful attention to this next part because I otherwise I will just have to repeat it over and over.

    1. Ashes has a lot of EQ devs, boss skills are random in EQ.
    2. Ashes' former Lead Designer has played FFXI. Boss skills are random in FFXI.
    3. The quote above is from Steven himself. There are additional quotes that further reinforce this potential approach to design.

    It does not matter if it would be an outlier to do it that way if Ashes is planning to do it that way.

    I will repeat this entire section as many times as it takes for you to understand the design of Ashes as it is currently known to exist.

    This isn't chaotic to me this is normal o.O.
    Now if they do this

    Adds

    -random types of adds strong and weak with completely random abilities every time you redo the raid
    -Skill use always generates different effects from raid to raid so different danger zones, effects etc to the point you can never plan for it and having a substantial effect on the raid (sleep where you need to be hit to wake up, electric effect you need to do a mechanics to avoid, fire you need to do a different mechanics to avoid) if they had about 10+ of these it would feel very chaotic and unpredictable to counter,

    If something is very chaotic strategy isn't going to be something easy as it will be more reaction based then strategy. The core of having very chaotic elements with mechanics and all isn't a good design at the raid becomes RNG which is frustrating cause you have no control over being killed or not. Though if they leaned more heavy on the action side and you had mobility this would be a little more fair.

    i]Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[/i][13] – Steven Sharif

    This sounds about right on what I'd expect, and doesn't sound chaotic to me. But there will be a lot less hand holding.

    Ok, let me try again so that I can see if I understand what you're saying.

    If I tell you that a boss casts a big damage spell, and while you are healing just randomly starts casting it again, is this chaotic?

    Assume that the same boss could just randomly start casting the same spell AGAIN as soon as the cooldown timer is up, instead of using any other more 'fair' ability.

    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    Is this chaotic?

    If not, what exactly is your definition of 'chaotic'?

    I don't view that as chaotic I view that as part of the fight in the skill yet it can use that you need to prepare for. There is some rng involved in getting a bad roll on what a boss can do but its nothing that you fully don't expect.
    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    This part I don't understand how are tanks stopping from getting threat? Are they worried about the spell that can damage them so they are not fully attacking and trying t guess when he uses it?


    My definition is mechanics that are not fair or there is no pattern in a boss. A pattern being what does the boss do in a fight phase 1, phase 2, phase 3. If the boss has a bunch of wipe mechanics that are random and spawn randomly I'd view that as chaotic because it comes out of your control and you are dying to rng at that point. Like the example I gave earlier if you had a raid of 40 and everyone gets hit and its random for everyone what mechs you need to do with like 10 different mechs and based ont he amount of people pre mech it can change, that would be chaotic.

    Then it isn't about what can the boss do anymore and you just having to prepare for anything and be expected to die a lot until you can get a good roll maybe.

    You are currently failing to comprehend something, or just waffling, but it sounds like you are saying 'yes, chaotic'.

    I have no specific interest in whether you consider Steven's designs bad or not. I only care that you understand them.

    N

    Notice that this quote references 'the possibility of changing the adds' and the possibility of changes to the skills of the adds.

    It also implies that you cannot go into a raid being sure which mechanics/skills the boss will even have. You might assume that 'none of those would kill you, that wouldn't be fair'.

    I have fought Jormungand. To that, I say 'Ice Dragons don't care what you think is fair'.

    There is no waffling I've stated examples I consider so you have a direct thought you can compare one to one however you like.

    I didn't state good or bad, I said that sounds about what Id expect in a mmorpg with less hand holding. You are inserting extra information into the convo why?

    Yes I'm aware of that based on node development it can influence the PvE content and there can be changes in enemies. I think this is your bias coming in into what you want or you are overexaggerating base on what you hope or to try to prove your point. If adds spawn even if it is a surprise the first time you will know generally what to expect. Will they change the mechanics of the entire encounter I don't think so as they are just adds. The adds I'm reference would have a much large effect on the encounter I should have detailed on how that could be done but adds that involve strong mechanics as well. If you go into a dungeon and see what mobs are there around the boss you will know ahead of time as well what to expect just depends on how they design the encounter. In the end this is something we would have to see to judge it as you can do anything with design but my expectations are kept in check.

    I know this goes back to them saying they didn't want bosses and dungeons to be overly spongy and wanted to involved more mechanics if a zerg walked in as well. What I think is fair and what I judge as unfair in mechanics in being chaotic are two different things. Which normally involves a game where death can be heavily rng involved and being unable to react to mechanics properly (ie one sec starts and is randomly placed, then you get unlucky with another rng mech and you die 100% of the time). There is nothing wrong with getting unlucky and maybe one dies or you take damage and have to adjust, but different when it involves a potential raid wipe.

    Alright, let's move on from 'chaotic.

    Again from the top, since you seem to be with me now.

    1. I know that the devs of this game have worked on another game with random skill usage in encounters.
    2. I have experienced a game where random skill usage is a strong aspect of playability and success from bosses.
    3. I expect to see the same thing in Ashes.

    I accept that you, having different experiences, also have different expectations. Are we at the point now where we can each accept the other's expectations, without claiming 'it will not be that way'?

    Are you able to think 'I can see why Azherae expects bosses to be very random'?

    Random skill usage isn't chaotic, unless those skills have chaotic effects as i had mentioned earlier like upon being hit you have one of 10 random debuffs that can cause your death or a raid wipe.

    When I'm talking about random skills, I'm talking every time you fight the boss it has new abilities that also involve heavy effects on the raid leading to wipes. So if raid wipes first time boss will now have new skills that they do not know about that involve new mechanics. Though of course no one knows what they are going to do, i don't see them doing something like this.

    I am not talking about skills being used in the exact same pattern every time, though some patterns may exist in design to help players as well and give hints. Having higher and lower points in the raid of difficulty based on the flow and design they have.

    No problem, it's cool, I'll paste it again. I'll bold the part.

    One of the design elements that we're implementing into our raids is that the raid will not be exactly the same every single time. You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well. We want there to be variables that get manifested by you know what type of node got developed elsewhere. Is he going to have acolytes or cultists? What will the acolytes have skills [available] to them? What kit is the boss gonna have? What available skill repertoire will the boss be able to [wield]? ... A lot of those systems are influenced obviously by world development. So the raid kind of takes into account at what stage has the world developed: Are there two metropolises now available in the world? Okay well let's activate this skill in this skill. Now you have five metropolises, well now all these skills have been activated. Are there are they all economic nodes? Are they all military nodes? That we can change things based on that stuff. And it really is a threat assessment from the environment against the players.[12] – Steven Sharif

    Can you understand why I do expect them to do something like this?

    I think you are putting too much emphasis on content changing as you have a thought or desire you want and you are trying to put that in connection with it. What is the content that will change, how will that effect the raid, will it be in a large way, will different heavy mechanics be changed, how long do session last, how often do the repeat, what are the changes to add abilities and do they involve or change the mechanics , are the changes involving wipe mechanics.

    Until we see the game its better to keep expectations in check, I don't potentially see those as being chaotic depending on how those questions are answered and what they do with the game design. That doesn't mean the content wont be extremely hard if they make it to do so.

    If you are expecting them to have different move sets time to time and some surprise attacks sure I can see that. But we are talking about chaotic and I don't deem that chaotic.

    This is fine, because that is your opinion. you have an opinion that I am putting a lot of emphasis on content changing.

    So are we at 'there is a possibility that when Steven says that he thinks the compelling aspect of Ashes Raiding will be difficulty in achieving the content and in content changing, he means that the content will significantly change'?

    You don't need to believe this means 'big changes' or 'small changes'. Only 'compelling and difficult' changes. Good enough?

    EDIT: In case it is unclear, I have completely conceded the point about the word 'chaotic' to you and am no longer addressing it.

    By the way one of my interest in AoC was the dungeons and the random elements of it something I've always thought was cool even though most games do it in a generic way. Though I keep my expectations in check and low. But if they surprise me that be great, though i wouldn't expect bosses to be that unpredictable every single time. But if there is enough changes in variety it will make things feel fresh then running the same thing over and over again.

    It was suppose to be like that in Too human but was a bit disappointed and things didn't feel that random. And thank you for for discussion this part felt a lot better on trying to understand than just argue.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
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    Any reasonable person would think action combat is in the game, so rather then thinking its impossible they would think how it can work and pushing it as far as possible in a discussion while raising some concerns they have. Right off the bat you didn't care for the discussion or thinking about possibilities so it leads to nothing but an argument.

    Reasonable people start by addressing assumptions and priors, and those must often be discussed or argued first.

    That's where we still are relative to that Tab vs Action Raid thing. Your presence would have been requested in the other thread.

    People argue with you when you challenge their priors, or bring information that shows you don't understand their priors.

    Maybe we can focus on something that is very direct and that we can actually progress on, in that case. You have one prior that is provably wrong, and I for one would like you to accept that it is provably wrong. It has nothing to do with Action or Tab. Just one thing.

    You have stated that you believe 'All Raid bosses/enemies have a pattern, it isn't just chaos'.

    This is not true, and until you are clear that it is not true, it's difficult to have that reasonable discussion you mentioned. Now, if you meant 'All Raid bosses/enemies should have a pattern", that's different, but you should accept that there are games, specifically popular games, where there are scenarios like this with no pattern, so that we can have a discussion.

    Every raid boss has patterns that is just how it is you are trying to stretch things to make it make sense with your point because you don't want to be wrong. A boss encounter does things, has stages of mechanics and you know what to expect and to plan for. Phase one does attack a,b,c. Phase two this mech and attack a,c. Phase three these three mechs attack a,b,c,d,e.

    Bosses don't suddenly do new attacks, you look at guides you see what it does you are good. Then you just practice till you are use to the attack patterns and motions and work towards beating the raid.

    So to be clear, you are unable to grasp this specific prior?

    I have given you an example of a boss that does not have a pattern before. You incorrectly concluded that the boss did have a pattern based on something you didn't understand, and dismissed it.

    Jormungand does not have a pattern to its offensive attacks or actions. Jormungand 'gains a single empowered move at 25% health', what you would call 'phase 2'.

    Jormungand can quickly devolve into chaos if it randomly does certain moves too often or 'randomly starts just casting spells all the time' instead of using physical attacks.

    Your perception is incorrect.

    You gave one example in a very old game and I mentioned one pattern it does based on the site regardless if you like it or not.

    Give me an examples in Final Fantasy XIV if you can show me a pattern a lot of bosses are chaotic then I'll agree with you if the guides seem to show it is hard to do one for them or better impossible.

    So only examples that match your experience count? I'm unclear.

    You looked at a single site that specifically says 'Sporadically uses Horrid Roar 3x in a row below 25%'.

    spo·rad·i·cal·ly
    /spəˈradək(ə)lē/
    Learn to pronounce
    adverb
    occasionally or at irregular intervals.
    "he worked sporadically at part-time jobs"

    I don't mind if you want to switch to 'there are no modern games where high level bosses are chaotic'. I don't mind if you want to switch to 'Ok so some games have chaotic bosses but Ashes won't'.

    90% of bosses in FFXI work this same way. It's part of the game's design. You are free to claim 'that game is too old to count' or 'Ashes won't be like that', but not 'Games aren't made like that'. Understand?

    The whole point is normal game design doesn't do things like that there is one offs time to time but very rare and uncommon. I know the sleeper in EQ wasn't really meant to be beat id say those are one of those rare exception of chaotic mechanics.

    I absolutely understand you, but we are trying to align priors.

    Here.

    Raid mechanics
    Raids contain intricate combat mechanics.[13]

    Multiple phase boss fights.[13]
    Adds.[13]
    Random oriented skill usage.[13]
    Telegraphed animations, but no obvious telegraphed templates on the ground.[13]
    Fights will require location, mobility and strategy.[13]
    Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[13] – Steven Sharif

    Now please pay careful attention to this next part because I otherwise I will just have to repeat it over and over.

    1. Ashes has a lot of EQ devs, boss skills are random in EQ.
    2. Ashes' former Lead Designer has played FFXI. Boss skills are random in FFXI.
    3. The quote above is from Steven himself. There are additional quotes that further reinforce this potential approach to design.

    It does not matter if it would be an outlier to do it that way if Ashes is planning to do it that way.

    I will repeat this entire section as many times as it takes for you to understand the design of Ashes as it is currently known to exist.

    This isn't chaotic to me this is normal o.O.
    Now if they do this

    Adds

    -random types of adds strong and weak with completely random abilities every time you redo the raid
    -Skill use always generates different effects from raid to raid so different danger zones, effects etc to the point you can never plan for it and having a substantial effect on the raid (sleep where you need to be hit to wake up, electric effect you need to do a mechanics to avoid, fire you need to do a different mechanics to avoid) if they had about 10+ of these it would feel very chaotic and unpredictable to counter,

    If something is very chaotic strategy isn't going to be something easy as it will be more reaction based then strategy. The core of having very chaotic elements with mechanics and all isn't a good design at the raid becomes RNG which is frustrating cause you have no control over being killed or not. Though if they leaned more heavy on the action side and you had mobility this would be a little more fair.

    i]Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[/i][13] – Steven Sharif

    This sounds about right on what I'd expect, and doesn't sound chaotic to me. But there will be a lot less hand holding.

    Ok, let me try again so that I can see if I understand what you're saying.

    If I tell you that a boss casts a big damage spell, and while you are healing just randomly starts casting it again, is this chaotic?

    Assume that the same boss could just randomly start casting the same spell AGAIN as soon as the cooldown timer is up, instead of using any other more 'fair' ability.

    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    Is this chaotic?

    If not, what exactly is your definition of 'chaotic'?

    I don't view that as chaotic I view that as part of the fight in the skill yet it can use that you need to prepare for. There is some rng involved in getting a bad roll on what a boss can do but its nothing that you fully don't expect.
    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    This part I don't understand how are tanks stopping from getting threat? Are they worried about the spell that can damage them so they are not fully attacking and trying t guess when he uses it?


    My definition is mechanics that are not fair or there is no pattern in a boss. A pattern being what does the boss do in a fight phase 1, phase 2, phase 3. If the boss has a bunch of wipe mechanics that are random and spawn randomly I'd view that as chaotic because it comes out of your control and you are dying to rng at that point. Like the example I gave earlier if you had a raid of 40 and everyone gets hit and its random for everyone what mechs you need to do with like 10 different mechs and based ont he amount of people pre mech it can change, that would be chaotic.

    Then it isn't about what can the boss do anymore and you just having to prepare for anything and be expected to die a lot until you can get a good roll maybe.

    You are currently failing to comprehend something, or just waffling, but it sounds like you are saying 'yes, chaotic'.

    I have no specific interest in whether you consider Steven's designs bad or not. I only care that you understand them.

    N

    Notice that this quote references 'the possibility of changing the adds' and the possibility of changes to the skills of the adds.

    It also implies that you cannot go into a raid being sure which mechanics/skills the boss will even have. You might assume that 'none of those would kill you, that wouldn't be fair'.

    I have fought Jormungand. To that, I say 'Ice Dragons don't care what you think is fair'.

    There is no waffling I've stated examples I consider so you have a direct thought you can compare one to one however you like.

    I didn't state good or bad, I said that sounds about what Id expect in a mmorpg with less hand holding. You are inserting extra information into the convo why?

    Yes I'm aware of that based on node development it can influence the PvE content and there can be changes in enemies. I think this is your bias coming in into what you want or you are overexaggerating base on what you hope or to try to prove your point. If adds spawn even if it is a surprise the first time you will know generally what to expect. Will they change the mechanics of the entire encounter I don't think so as they are just adds. The adds I'm reference would have a much large effect on the encounter I should have detailed on how that could be done but adds that involve strong mechanics as well. If you go into a dungeon and see what mobs are there around the boss you will know ahead of time as well what to expect just depends on how they design the encounter. In the end this is something we would have to see to judge it as you can do anything with design but my expectations are kept in check.

    I know this goes back to them saying they didn't want bosses and dungeons to be overly spongy and wanted to involved more mechanics if a zerg walked in as well. What I think is fair and what I judge as unfair in mechanics in being chaotic are two different things. Which normally involves a game where death can be heavily rng involved and being unable to react to mechanics properly (ie one sec starts and is randomly placed, then you get unlucky with another rng mech and you die 100% of the time). There is nothing wrong with getting unlucky and maybe one dies or you take damage and have to adjust, but different when it involves a potential raid wipe.

    Alright, let's move on from 'chaotic.

    Again from the top, since you seem to be with me now.

    1. I know that the devs of this game have worked on another game with random skill usage in encounters.
    2. I have experienced a game where random skill usage is a strong aspect of playability and success from bosses.
    3. I expect to see the same thing in Ashes.

    I accept that you, having different experiences, also have different expectations. Are we at the point now where we can each accept the other's expectations, without claiming 'it will not be that way'?

    Are you able to think 'I can see why Azherae expects bosses to be very random'?

    Random skill usage isn't chaotic, unless those skills have chaotic effects as i had mentioned earlier like upon being hit you have one of 10 random debuffs that can cause your death or a raid wipe.

    When I'm talking about random skills, I'm talking every time you fight the boss it has new abilities that also involve heavy effects on the raid leading to wipes. So if raid wipes first time boss will now have new skills that they do not know about that involve new mechanics. Though of course no one knows what they are going to do, i don't see them doing something like this.

    I am not talking about skills being used in the exact same pattern every time, though some patterns may exist in design to help players as well and give hints. Having higher and lower points in the raid of difficulty based on the flow and design they have.

    No problem, it's cool, I'll paste it again. I'll bold the part.

    One of the design elements that we're implementing into our raids is that the raid will not be exactly the same every single time. You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well. We want there to be variables that get manifested by you know what type of node got developed elsewhere. Is he going to have acolytes or cultists? What will the acolytes have skills [available] to them? What kit is the boss gonna have? What available skill repertoire will the boss be able to [wield]? ... A lot of those systems are influenced obviously by world development. So the raid kind of takes into account at what stage has the world developed: Are there two metropolises now available in the world? Okay well let's activate this skill in this skill. Now you have five metropolises, well now all these skills have been activated. Are there are they all economic nodes? Are they all military nodes? That we can change things based on that stuff. And it really is a threat assessment from the environment against the players.[12] – Steven Sharif

    Can you understand why I do expect them to do something like this?

    I think you are putting too much emphasis on content changing as you have a thought or desire you want and you are trying to put that in connection with it. What is the content that will change, how will that effect the raid, will it be in a large way, will different heavy mechanics be changed, how long do session last, how often do the repeat, what are the changes to add abilities and do they involve or change the mechanics , are the changes involving wipe mechanics.

    Until we see the game its better to keep expectations in check, I don't potentially see those as being chaotic depending on how those questions are answered and what they do with the game design. That doesn't mean the content wont be extremely hard if they make it to do so.

    If you are expecting them to have different move sets time to time and some surprise attacks sure I can see that. But we are talking about chaotic and I don't deem that chaotic.

    This is fine, because that is your opinion. you have an opinion that I am putting a lot of emphasis on content changing.

    So are we at 'there is a possibility that when Steven says that he thinks the compelling aspect of Ashes Raiding will be difficulty in achieving the content and in content changing, he means that the content will significantly change'?

    You don't need to believe this means 'big changes' or 'small changes'. Only 'compelling and difficult' changes. Good enough?

    EDIT: In case it is unclear, I have completely conceded the point about the word 'chaotic' to you and am no longer addressing it.

    By the way one of my interest in AoC was the dungeons and the random elements of it something I've always thought was cool even though most games do it in a generic way. Though I keep my expectations in check and low. But if they surprise me that be great, though i wouldn't expect bosses to be that unpredictable every single time. But if there is enough changes in variety it will make things feel fresh then running the same thing over and over again.

    It was suppose to be like that in Too human but was a bit disappointed and things didn't feel that random. And thank you for for discussion this part felt a lot better on trying to understand than just argue.

    No problem. I did say that I learned from watching your matches, after all.

    Can you understand why my expectations are wild (not 'in check') and high, because of the games I come from? Can you understand why Noaani's expectations might also be 'wild' and high in comparison to yours?

    EDIT: To be clear, I'm not asking this in order to 'start another whole argument based on it'. I'm stopping for now, I would just really like to end this on a positive note where we've both moved closer to the other's priors.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
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    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Any reasonable person would think action combat is in the game, so rather then thinking its impossible they would think how it can work and pushing it as far as possible in a discussion while raising some concerns they have. Right off the bat you didn't care for the discussion or thinking about possibilities so it leads to nothing but an argument.

    Reasonable people start by addressing assumptions and priors, and those must often be discussed or argued first.

    That's where we still are relative to that Tab vs Action Raid thing. Your presence would have been requested in the other thread.

    People argue with you when you challenge their priors, or bring information that shows you don't understand their priors.

    Maybe we can focus on something that is very direct and that we can actually progress on, in that case. You have one prior that is provably wrong, and I for one would like you to accept that it is provably wrong. It has nothing to do with Action or Tab. Just one thing.

    You have stated that you believe 'All Raid bosses/enemies have a pattern, it isn't just chaos'.

    This is not true, and until you are clear that it is not true, it's difficult to have that reasonable discussion you mentioned. Now, if you meant 'All Raid bosses/enemies should have a pattern", that's different, but you should accept that there are games, specifically popular games, where there are scenarios like this with no pattern, so that we can have a discussion.

    Every raid boss has patterns that is just how it is you are trying to stretch things to make it make sense with your point because you don't want to be wrong. A boss encounter does things, has stages of mechanics and you know what to expect and to plan for. Phase one does attack a,b,c. Phase two this mech and attack a,c. Phase three these three mechs attack a,b,c,d,e.

    Bosses don't suddenly do new attacks, you look at guides you see what it does you are good. Then you just practice till you are use to the attack patterns and motions and work towards beating the raid.

    So to be clear, you are unable to grasp this specific prior?

    I have given you an example of a boss that does not have a pattern before. You incorrectly concluded that the boss did have a pattern based on something you didn't understand, and dismissed it.

    Jormungand does not have a pattern to its offensive attacks or actions. Jormungand 'gains a single empowered move at 25% health', what you would call 'phase 2'.

    Jormungand can quickly devolve into chaos if it randomly does certain moves too often or 'randomly starts just casting spells all the time' instead of using physical attacks.

    Your perception is incorrect.

    You gave one example in a very old game and I mentioned one pattern it does based on the site regardless if you like it or not.

    Give me an examples in Final Fantasy XIV if you can show me a pattern a lot of bosses are chaotic then I'll agree with you if the guides seem to show it is hard to do one for them or better impossible.

    So only examples that match your experience count? I'm unclear.

    You looked at a single site that specifically says 'Sporadically uses Horrid Roar 3x in a row below 25%'.

    spo·rad·i·cal·ly
    /spəˈradək(ə)lē/
    Learn to pronounce
    adverb
    occasionally or at irregular intervals.
    "he worked sporadically at part-time jobs"

    I don't mind if you want to switch to 'there are no modern games where high level bosses are chaotic'. I don't mind if you want to switch to 'Ok so some games have chaotic bosses but Ashes won't'.

    90% of bosses in FFXI work this same way. It's part of the game's design. You are free to claim 'that game is too old to count' or 'Ashes won't be like that', but not 'Games aren't made like that'. Understand?

    The whole point is normal game design doesn't do things like that there is one offs time to time but very rare and uncommon. I know the sleeper in EQ wasn't really meant to be beat id say those are one of those rare exception of chaotic mechanics.

    I absolutely understand you, but we are trying to align priors.

    Here.

    Raid mechanics
    Raids contain intricate combat mechanics.[13]

    Multiple phase boss fights.[13]
    Adds.[13]
    Random oriented skill usage.[13]
    Telegraphed animations, but no obvious telegraphed templates on the ground.[13]
    Fights will require location, mobility and strategy.[13]
    Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[13] – Steven Sharif

    Now please pay careful attention to this next part because I otherwise I will just have to repeat it over and over.

    1. Ashes has a lot of EQ devs, boss skills are random in EQ.
    2. Ashes' former Lead Designer has played FFXI. Boss skills are random in FFXI.
    3. The quote above is from Steven himself. There are additional quotes that further reinforce this potential approach to design.

    It does not matter if it would be an outlier to do it that way if Ashes is planning to do it that way.

    I will repeat this entire section as many times as it takes for you to understand the design of Ashes as it is currently known to exist.

    This isn't chaotic to me this is normal o.O.
    Now if they do this

    Adds

    -random types of adds strong and weak with completely random abilities every time you redo the raid
    -Skill use always generates different effects from raid to raid so different danger zones, effects etc to the point you can never plan for it and having a substantial effect on the raid (sleep where you need to be hit to wake up, electric effect you need to do a mechanics to avoid, fire you need to do a different mechanics to avoid) if they had about 10+ of these it would feel very chaotic and unpredictable to counter,

    If something is very chaotic strategy isn't going to be something easy as it will be more reaction based then strategy. The core of having very chaotic elements with mechanics and all isn't a good design at the raid becomes RNG which is frustrating cause you have no control over being killed or not. Though if they leaned more heavy on the action side and you had mobility this would be a little more fair.

    i]Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[/i][13] – Steven Sharif

    This sounds about right on what I'd expect, and doesn't sound chaotic to me. But there will be a lot less hand holding.

    Ok, let me try again so that I can see if I understand what you're saying.

    If I tell you that a boss casts a big damage spell, and while you are healing just randomly starts casting it again, is this chaotic?

    Assume that the same boss could just randomly start casting the same spell AGAIN as soon as the cooldown timer is up, instead of using any other more 'fair' ability.

    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    Is this chaotic?

    If not, what exactly is your definition of 'chaotic'?

    I don't view that as chaotic I view that as part of the fight in the skill yet it can use that you need to prepare for. There is some rng involved in getting a bad roll on what a boss can do but its nothing that you fully don't expect.
    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    This part I don't understand how are tanks stopping from getting threat? Are they worried about the spell that can damage them so they are not fully attacking and trying t guess when he uses it?


    My definition is mechanics that are not fair or there is no pattern in a boss. A pattern being what does the boss do in a fight phase 1, phase 2, phase 3. If the boss has a bunch of wipe mechanics that are random and spawn randomly I'd view that as chaotic because it comes out of your control and you are dying to rng at that point. Like the example I gave earlier if you had a raid of 40 and everyone gets hit and its random for everyone what mechs you need to do with like 10 different mechs and based ont he amount of people pre mech it can change, that would be chaotic.

    Then it isn't about what can the boss do anymore and you just having to prepare for anything and be expected to die a lot until you can get a good roll maybe.

    You are currently failing to comprehend something, or just waffling, but it sounds like you are saying 'yes, chaotic'.

    I have no specific interest in whether you consider Steven's designs bad or not. I only care that you understand them.

    N

    Notice that this quote references 'the possibility of changing the adds' and the possibility of changes to the skills of the adds.

    It also implies that you cannot go into a raid being sure which mechanics/skills the boss will even have. You might assume that 'none of those would kill you, that wouldn't be fair'.

    I have fought Jormungand. To that, I say 'Ice Dragons don't care what you think is fair'.

    There is no waffling I've stated examples I consider so you have a direct thought you can compare one to one however you like.

    I didn't state good or bad, I said that sounds about what Id expect in a mmorpg with less hand holding. You are inserting extra information into the convo why?

    Yes I'm aware of that based on node development it can influence the PvE content and there can be changes in enemies. I think this is your bias coming in into what you want or you are overexaggerating base on what you hope or to try to prove your point. If adds spawn even if it is a surprise the first time you will know generally what to expect. Will they change the mechanics of the entire encounter I don't think so as they are just adds. The adds I'm reference would have a much large effect on the encounter I should have detailed on how that could be done but adds that involve strong mechanics as well. If you go into a dungeon and see what mobs are there around the boss you will know ahead of time as well what to expect just depends on how they design the encounter. In the end this is something we would have to see to judge it as you can do anything with design but my expectations are kept in check.

    I know this goes back to them saying they didn't want bosses and dungeons to be overly spongy and wanted to involved more mechanics if a zerg walked in as well. What I think is fair and what I judge as unfair in mechanics in being chaotic are two different things. Which normally involves a game where death can be heavily rng involved and being unable to react to mechanics properly (ie one sec starts and is randomly placed, then you get unlucky with another rng mech and you die 100% of the time). There is nothing wrong with getting unlucky and maybe one dies or you take damage and have to adjust, but different when it involves a potential raid wipe.

    Alright, let's move on from 'chaotic.

    Again from the top, since you seem to be with me now.

    1. I know that the devs of this game have worked on another game with random skill usage in encounters.
    2. I have experienced a game where random skill usage is a strong aspect of playability and success from bosses.
    3. I expect to see the same thing in Ashes.

    I accept that you, having different experiences, also have different expectations. Are we at the point now where we can each accept the other's expectations, without claiming 'it will not be that way'?

    Are you able to think 'I can see why Azherae expects bosses to be very random'?

    Random skill usage isn't chaotic, unless those skills have chaotic effects as i had mentioned earlier like upon being hit you have one of 10 random debuffs that can cause your death or a raid wipe.

    When I'm talking about random skills, I'm talking every time you fight the boss it has new abilities that also involve heavy effects on the raid leading to wipes. So if raid wipes first time boss will now have new skills that they do not know about that involve new mechanics. Though of course no one knows what they are going to do, i don't see them doing something like this.

    I am not talking about skills being used in the exact same pattern every time, though some patterns may exist in design to help players as well and give hints. Having higher and lower points in the raid of difficulty based on the flow and design they have.

    No problem, it's cool, I'll paste it again. I'll bold the part.

    One of the design elements that we're implementing into our raids is that the raid will not be exactly the same every single time. You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well. We want there to be variables that get manifested by you know what type of node got developed elsewhere. Is he going to have acolytes or cultists? What will the acolytes have skills [available] to them? What kit is the boss gonna have? What available skill repertoire will the boss be able to [wield]? ... A lot of those systems are influenced obviously by world development. So the raid kind of takes into account at what stage has the world developed: Are there two metropolises now available in the world? Okay well let's activate this skill in this skill. Now you have five metropolises, well now all these skills have been activated. Are there are they all economic nodes? Are they all military nodes? That we can change things based on that stuff. And it really is a threat assessment from the environment against the players.[12] – Steven Sharif

    Can you understand why I do expect them to do something like this?

    I think you are putting too much emphasis on content changing as you have a thought or desire you want and you are trying to put that in connection with it. What is the content that will change, how will that effect the raid, will it be in a large way, will different heavy mechanics be changed, how long do session last, how often do the repeat, what are the changes to add abilities and do they involve or change the mechanics , are the changes involving wipe mechanics.

    Until we see the game its better to keep expectations in check, I don't potentially see those as being chaotic depending on how those questions are answered and what they do with the game design. That doesn't mean the content wont be extremely hard if they make it to do so.

    If you are expecting them to have different move sets time to time and some surprise attacks sure I can see that. But we are talking about chaotic and I don't deem that chaotic.

    This is fine, because that is your opinion. you have an opinion that I am putting a lot of emphasis on content changing.

    So are we at 'there is a possibility that when Steven says that he thinks the compelling aspect of Ashes Raiding will be difficulty in achieving the content and in content changing, he means that the content will significantly change'?

    You don't need to believe this means 'big changes' or 'small changes'. Only 'compelling and difficult' changes. Good enough?

    EDIT: In case it is unclear, I have completely conceded the point about the word 'chaotic' to you and am no longer addressing it.

    By the way one of my interest in AoC was the dungeons and the random elements of it something I've always thought was cool even though most games do it in a generic way. Though I keep my expectations in check and low. But if they surprise me that be great, though i wouldn't expect bosses to be that unpredictable every single time. But if there is enough changes in variety it will make things feel fresh then running the same thing over and over again.

    It was suppose to be like that in Too human but was a bit disappointed and things didn't feel that random. And thank you for for discussion this part felt a lot better on trying to understand than just argue.

    No problem. I did say that I learned from watching your matches, after all.

    Can you understand why my expectations are wild (not 'in check') and high, because of the games I come from? Can you understand why Noaani's expectations might also be 'wild' and high in comparison to yours?

    I can understand on what you want and see ya.

    Him I just see insults more then anything else at this point, no clue what he wants. I just know he thinks action combat is impossible and plus insults.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
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    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Any reasonable person would think action combat is in the game, so rather then thinking its impossible they would think how it can work and pushing it as far as possible in a discussion while raising some concerns they have. Right off the bat you didn't care for the discussion or thinking about possibilities so it leads to nothing but an argument.

    Reasonable people start by addressing assumptions and priors, and those must often be discussed or argued first.

    That's where we still are relative to that Tab vs Action Raid thing. Your presence would have been requested in the other thread.

    People argue with you when you challenge their priors, or bring information that shows you don't understand their priors.

    Maybe we can focus on something that is very direct and that we can actually progress on, in that case. You have one prior that is provably wrong, and I for one would like you to accept that it is provably wrong. It has nothing to do with Action or Tab. Just one thing.

    You have stated that you believe 'All Raid bosses/enemies have a pattern, it isn't just chaos'.

    This is not true, and until you are clear that it is not true, it's difficult to have that reasonable discussion you mentioned. Now, if you meant 'All Raid bosses/enemies should have a pattern", that's different, but you should accept that there are games, specifically popular games, where there are scenarios like this with no pattern, so that we can have a discussion.

    Every raid boss has patterns that is just how it is you are trying to stretch things to make it make sense with your point because you don't want to be wrong. A boss encounter does things, has stages of mechanics and you know what to expect and to plan for. Phase one does attack a,b,c. Phase two this mech and attack a,c. Phase three these three mechs attack a,b,c,d,e.

    Bosses don't suddenly do new attacks, you look at guides you see what it does you are good. Then you just practice till you are use to the attack patterns and motions and work towards beating the raid.

    So to be clear, you are unable to grasp this specific prior?

    I have given you an example of a boss that does not have a pattern before. You incorrectly concluded that the boss did have a pattern based on something you didn't understand, and dismissed it.

    Jormungand does not have a pattern to its offensive attacks or actions. Jormungand 'gains a single empowered move at 25% health', what you would call 'phase 2'.

    Jormungand can quickly devolve into chaos if it randomly does certain moves too often or 'randomly starts just casting spells all the time' instead of using physical attacks.

    Your perception is incorrect.

    You gave one example in a very old game and I mentioned one pattern it does based on the site regardless if you like it or not.

    Give me an examples in Final Fantasy XIV if you can show me a pattern a lot of bosses are chaotic then I'll agree with you if the guides seem to show it is hard to do one for them or better impossible.

    So only examples that match your experience count? I'm unclear.

    You looked at a single site that specifically says 'Sporadically uses Horrid Roar 3x in a row below 25%'.

    spo·rad·i·cal·ly
    /spəˈradək(ə)lē/
    Learn to pronounce
    adverb
    occasionally or at irregular intervals.
    "he worked sporadically at part-time jobs"

    I don't mind if you want to switch to 'there are no modern games where high level bosses are chaotic'. I don't mind if you want to switch to 'Ok so some games have chaotic bosses but Ashes won't'.

    90% of bosses in FFXI work this same way. It's part of the game's design. You are free to claim 'that game is too old to count' or 'Ashes won't be like that', but not 'Games aren't made like that'. Understand?

    The whole point is normal game design doesn't do things like that there is one offs time to time but very rare and uncommon. I know the sleeper in EQ wasn't really meant to be beat id say those are one of those rare exception of chaotic mechanics.

    I absolutely understand you, but we are trying to align priors.

    Here.

    Raid mechanics
    Raids contain intricate combat mechanics.[13]

    Multiple phase boss fights.[13]
    Adds.[13]
    Random oriented skill usage.[13]
    Telegraphed animations, but no obvious telegraphed templates on the ground.[13]
    Fights will require location, mobility and strategy.[13]
    Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[13] – Steven Sharif

    Now please pay careful attention to this next part because I otherwise I will just have to repeat it over and over.

    1. Ashes has a lot of EQ devs, boss skills are random in EQ.
    2. Ashes' former Lead Designer has played FFXI. Boss skills are random in FFXI.
    3. The quote above is from Steven himself. There are additional quotes that further reinforce this potential approach to design.

    It does not matter if it would be an outlier to do it that way if Ashes is planning to do it that way.

    I will repeat this entire section as many times as it takes for you to understand the design of Ashes as it is currently known to exist.

    This isn't chaotic to me this is normal o.O.
    Now if they do this

    Adds

    -random types of adds strong and weak with completely random abilities every time you redo the raid
    -Skill use always generates different effects from raid to raid so different danger zones, effects etc to the point you can never plan for it and having a substantial effect on the raid (sleep where you need to be hit to wake up, electric effect you need to do a mechanics to avoid, fire you need to do a different mechanics to avoid) if they had about 10+ of these it would feel very chaotic and unpredictable to counter,

    If something is very chaotic strategy isn't going to be something easy as it will be more reaction based then strategy. The core of having very chaotic elements with mechanics and all isn't a good design at the raid becomes RNG which is frustrating cause you have no control over being killed or not. Though if they leaned more heavy on the action side and you had mobility this would be a little more fair.

    i]Combat itself will be pretty intricate mechanics-wise. We're going to have different phases of the bosses, there's going to be a lot of adds stuff, there's going to be random oriented skill usage. We're not going to have telegraphed templates on the ground, but we will have telegraphed animations, so it's going to be location, mobility, strategic. It will be something that can not be repeatable in the exact same way from raid to raid, but has a variance between the combat, so raiders are going to have to be fluid in thinking on their feet.[/i][13] – Steven Sharif

    This sounds about right on what I'd expect, and doesn't sound chaotic to me. But there will be a lot less hand holding.

    Ok, let me try again so that I can see if I understand what you're saying.

    If I tell you that a boss casts a big damage spell, and while you are healing just randomly starts casting it again, is this chaotic?

    Assume that the same boss could just randomly start casting the same spell AGAIN as soon as the cooldown timer is up, instead of using any other more 'fair' ability.

    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    Is this chaotic?

    If not, what exactly is your definition of 'chaotic'?

    I don't view that as chaotic I view that as part of the fight in the skill yet it can use that you need to prepare for. There is some rng involved in getting a bad roll on what a boss can do but its nothing that you fully don't expect.
    Assume that the boss could just 'literally never cast that spell and spend the entire raid messing with your tanks and stopping them from holding hate so that your entire Alliance might be killed by a single attack due to incorrect positioning without you even being able to react to it'.

    This part I don't understand how are tanks stopping from getting threat? Are they worried about the spell that can damage them so they are not fully attacking and trying t guess when he uses it?


    My definition is mechanics that are not fair or there is no pattern in a boss. A pattern being what does the boss do in a fight phase 1, phase 2, phase 3. If the boss has a bunch of wipe mechanics that are random and spawn randomly I'd view that as chaotic because it comes out of your control and you are dying to rng at that point. Like the example I gave earlier if you had a raid of 40 and everyone gets hit and its random for everyone what mechs you need to do with like 10 different mechs and based ont he amount of people pre mech it can change, that would be chaotic.

    Then it isn't about what can the boss do anymore and you just having to prepare for anything and be expected to die a lot until you can get a good roll maybe.

    You are currently failing to comprehend something, or just waffling, but it sounds like you are saying 'yes, chaotic'.

    I have no specific interest in whether you consider Steven's designs bad or not. I only care that you understand them.

    N

    Notice that this quote references 'the possibility of changing the adds' and the possibility of changes to the skills of the adds.

    It also implies that you cannot go into a raid being sure which mechanics/skills the boss will even have. You might assume that 'none of those would kill you, that wouldn't be fair'.

    I have fought Jormungand. To that, I say 'Ice Dragons don't care what you think is fair'.

    There is no waffling I've stated examples I consider so you have a direct thought you can compare one to one however you like.

    I didn't state good or bad, I said that sounds about what Id expect in a mmorpg with less hand holding. You are inserting extra information into the convo why?

    Yes I'm aware of that based on node development it can influence the PvE content and there can be changes in enemies. I think this is your bias coming in into what you want or you are overexaggerating base on what you hope or to try to prove your point. If adds spawn even if it is a surprise the first time you will know generally what to expect. Will they change the mechanics of the entire encounter I don't think so as they are just adds. The adds I'm reference would have a much large effect on the encounter I should have detailed on how that could be done but adds that involve strong mechanics as well. If you go into a dungeon and see what mobs are there around the boss you will know ahead of time as well what to expect just depends on how they design the encounter. In the end this is something we would have to see to judge it as you can do anything with design but my expectations are kept in check.

    I know this goes back to them saying they didn't want bosses and dungeons to be overly spongy and wanted to involved more mechanics if a zerg walked in as well. What I think is fair and what I judge as unfair in mechanics in being chaotic are two different things. Which normally involves a game where death can be heavily rng involved and being unable to react to mechanics properly (ie one sec starts and is randomly placed, then you get unlucky with another rng mech and you die 100% of the time). There is nothing wrong with getting unlucky and maybe one dies or you take damage and have to adjust, but different when it involves a potential raid wipe.

    Alright, let's move on from 'chaotic.

    Again from the top, since you seem to be with me now.

    1. I know that the devs of this game have worked on another game with random skill usage in encounters.
    2. I have experienced a game where random skill usage is a strong aspect of playability and success from bosses.
    3. I expect to see the same thing in Ashes.

    I accept that you, having different experiences, also have different expectations. Are we at the point now where we can each accept the other's expectations, without claiming 'it will not be that way'?

    Are you able to think 'I can see why Azherae expects bosses to be very random'?

    Random skill usage isn't chaotic, unless those skills have chaotic effects as i had mentioned earlier like upon being hit you have one of 10 random debuffs that can cause your death or a raid wipe.

    When I'm talking about random skills, I'm talking every time you fight the boss it has new abilities that also involve heavy effects on the raid leading to wipes. So if raid wipes first time boss will now have new skills that they do not know about that involve new mechanics. Though of course no one knows what they are going to do, i don't see them doing something like this.

    I am not talking about skills being used in the exact same pattern every time, though some patterns may exist in design to help players as well and give hints. Having higher and lower points in the raid of difficulty based on the flow and design they have.

    No problem, it's cool, I'll paste it again. I'll bold the part.

    One of the design elements that we're implementing into our raids is that the raid will not be exactly the same every single time. You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well. We want there to be variables that get manifested by you know what type of node got developed elsewhere. Is he going to have acolytes or cultists? What will the acolytes have skills [available] to them? What kit is the boss gonna have? What available skill repertoire will the boss be able to [wield]? ... A lot of those systems are influenced obviously by world development. So the raid kind of takes into account at what stage has the world developed: Are there two metropolises now available in the world? Okay well let's activate this skill in this skill. Now you have five metropolises, well now all these skills have been activated. Are there are they all economic nodes? Are they all military nodes? That we can change things based on that stuff. And it really is a threat assessment from the environment against the players.[12] – Steven Sharif

    Can you understand why I do expect them to do something like this?

    I think you are putting too much emphasis on content changing as you have a thought or desire you want and you are trying to put that in connection with it. What is the content that will change, how will that effect the raid, will it be in a large way, will different heavy mechanics be changed, how long do session last, how often do the repeat, what are the changes to add abilities and do they involve or change the mechanics , are the changes involving wipe mechanics.

    Until we see the game its better to keep expectations in check, I don't potentially see those as being chaotic depending on how those questions are answered and what they do with the game design. That doesn't mean the content wont be extremely hard if they make it to do so.

    If you are expecting them to have different move sets time to time and some surprise attacks sure I can see that. But we are talking about chaotic and I don't deem that chaotic.

    This is fine, because that is your opinion. you have an opinion that I am putting a lot of emphasis on content changing.

    So are we at 'there is a possibility that when Steven says that he thinks the compelling aspect of Ashes Raiding will be difficulty in achieving the content and in content changing, he means that the content will significantly change'?

    You don't need to believe this means 'big changes' or 'small changes'. Only 'compelling and difficult' changes. Good enough?

    EDIT: In case it is unclear, I have completely conceded the point about the word 'chaotic' to you and am no longer addressing it.

    By the way one of my interest in AoC was the dungeons and the random elements of it something I've always thought was cool even though most games do it in a generic way. Though I keep my expectations in check and low. But if they surprise me that be great, though i wouldn't expect bosses to be that unpredictable every single time. But if there is enough changes in variety it will make things feel fresh then running the same thing over and over again.

    It was suppose to be like that in Too human but was a bit disappointed and things didn't feel that random. And thank you for for discussion this part felt a lot better on trying to understand than just argue.

    No problem. I did say that I learned from watching your matches, after all.

    Can you understand why my expectations are wild (not 'in check') and high, because of the games I come from? Can you understand why Noaani's expectations might also be 'wild' and high in comparison to yours?

    I can understand on what you want and see ya.

    Him I just see insults more then anything else at this point, no clue what he wants. I just know he thinks action combat is impossible and plus insults.

    Well, one step at a time, from both of us. It's up to Noaani if any 'step-taking' will happen from that end. Maybe tomorrow, who knows.

    "Thanks for the match."
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    One small step…
  • ELRYNOELRYNO Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    I love pressing buttons & moving my mouse to kill stuff and get shiny rewards. At this point, I don't care what form of button pressing it comes in. I'm just happy they seem to have moved forward with some direction. There are skilled people in tab combat, there are skilled people in action combat. Both styles have skill expression & both are rewarding, the fun of each style is improving your skill so that you can get gear and conquer your foes, right? If you're shit at tab-target combat, you're at the bottom of the food chain. If you're shit at action combat, you're at the bottom of the food chain, when life throws you lemons as they say. At the end of the day, we just have to wait patiently and see what Intrepid bring us in Alpha 2, don't like it at that point? Time to leave a 1 star Tripadvisor & move on in life like everyone else.

    I will however just drop an opinion of mine though, I have -always- been more engaged in action combat games as opposed to tab-target. I have seen the argument crop up a couple of times regarding action combat having no place in Raids / Large Scale events. I find it difficult to understand this take, we as humans are constantly iterating on past designs, enhancing them, game design is no different. Take the floppy disk for example, the first ever 3-1/2 inch floppy disk held a total of 1.44mb...we now have a multitude of modern data storage options & none of which would be the outdated floppy disk. Forget old game design, look to the future, and try to imagine what could be.

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Any reasonable person would think action combat is in the game
    Where did I ever say it wouldn't be, or shouldn't be?

    What the hell even is this argument you are making?

    I am going to require myself here - this is from the post of mine you literally just quoted.
    Noaani wrote: »
    I am on record many, many times on these forums as having said that anything we discuss here will have literally no effect on the finished game - nor should it. We are having a discussion among ourselves, not with Intrepid.

    When this is your mindset - as most posters around here know is mine - you literally can not push for any kind of gameplay to be added to Ashes.
    You seem to think I am arguing for what Ashes should or should not be. I'm not. I never have. I've never even suggested that I am.

    You seriously need to learn comprehension.

    You are getting so worked up because you are assuming people are making arguments that they are not in fact making.

    Like, seriously, how many times have people (not just myself) had to pull you up over this in the last few days?

    It doesn't help that you are responding to posts without even reading them.

    You are so disingenuous its actually insane, you literarily have said people will use tab over action combat for high end raids and have stated it is impossible to make action combat work in high end. As i stated you can't coming from a discussion point you are coming from tab target only point.

    Yeah, people will take mostly tab target abilities for top end content, and then when they want to PvP they will respec to mostly action combat.

    You know I have said exactly this, as you have argued against it. How you can say that the above is arguing from a tab target only perspective is beyond me.
    So if ashes is to be good mmo since you are invested naturally you would care and comment on and want things to lean towards a certain direction. I'd believe you if you don't take a bias approach
    My un iased opinion on this matter is that Ashes should have hybrid combat, and people will naturally gravitate towards tab abilities for PvE content, and action for PvP.

    This is a stance you know I have.

    Your distance, as far as I can see, is to hold your hands over your ears and scream to yourself "ACTION COMBAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS" over and over again.

    I mean, you refuse to listen to reasoned opinions to the point where you do not even know the foundation of the opinions you are arguing against.

    And just for the record, Azherae is 100% correct about chaotic raids. They exist, and are in fact the raids I have been talking about the entire time you and I have been conversing.

    Raids that have a pattern are inherently easy. Raids that do not have a pattern are harder than any PvP you will ever see.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    "ONLY BDO'S ACTION COMBAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS"
    There, fixed it for you :)
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Any reasonable person would think action combat is in the game
    Where did I ever say it wouldn't be, or shouldn't be?

    What the hell even is this argument you are making?

    I am going to require myself here - this is from the post of mine you literally just quoted.
    Noaani wrote: »
    I am on record many, many times on these forums as having said that anything we discuss here will have literally no effect on the finished game - nor should it. We are having a discussion among ourselves, not with Intrepid.

    When this is your mindset - as most posters around here know is mine - you literally can not push for any kind of gameplay to be added to Ashes.
    You seem to think I am arguing for what Ashes should or should not be. I'm not. I never have. I've never even suggested that I am.

    You seriously need to learn comprehension.

    You are getting so worked up because you are assuming people are making arguments that they are not in fact making.

    Like, seriously, how many times have people (not just myself) had to pull you up over this in the last few days?

    It doesn't help that you are responding to posts without even reading them.

    You are so disingenuous its actually insane, you literarily have said people will use tab over action combat for high end raids and have stated it is impossible to make action combat work in high end. As i stated you can't coming from a discussion point you are coming from tab target only point.

    Yeah, people will take mostly tab target abilities for top end content, and then when they want to PvP they will respec to mostly action combat.

    You know I have said exactly this, as you have argued against it. How you can say that the above is arguing from a tab target only perspective is beyond me.
    So if ashes is to be good mmo since you are invested naturally you would care and comment on and want things to lean towards a certain direction. I'd believe you if you don't take a bias approach
    My un iased opinion on this matter is that Ashes should have hybrid combat, and people will naturally gravitate towards tab abilities for PvE content, and action for PvP.

    This is a stance you know I have.

    Your distance, as far as I can see, is to hold your hands over your ears and scream to yourself "ACTION COMBAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS" over and over again.

    I mean, you refuse to listen to reasoned opinions to the point where you do not even know the foundation of the opinions you are arguing against.

    And just for the record, Azherae is 100% correct about chaotic raids. They exist, and are in fact the raids I have been talking about the entire time you and I have been conversing.

    Raids that have a pattern are inherently easy. Raids that do not have a pattern are harder than any PvP you will ever see.

    You are so lost its not even worth the effort, keep making assumptions. All you can do is talk garbage, we have gone from me saying action combat can do all forms of content, to you assuming the only thing i care about action combat against your weird take.

    You haven't talked about any raids, all you can do is say things exist but not back anything up with videos, for even talk about mechanics in these raids. I've said it before ill say it again your content doesn't exist and is just nostalgia the exact reason why you can't give any evidence lmao.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    At this point I dearly hope that Ashes does in fact have such a difficult boss that guilds will not make any farming videos about it, while still farming it successfully. At which point I'd ask Mag to explain to me how ez it would be to "just show video proof" for the complexity of the boss :) Doubt that'll happen though :/
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    At this point I dearly hope that Ashes does in fact have such a difficult boss that guilds will not make any farming videos about it, while still farming it successfully. At which point I'd ask Mag to explain to me how ez it would be to "just show video proof" for the complexity of the boss :) Doubt that'll happen though :/

    I forgot that I was supposed to provide this for you.

    Back to checking for stealth frame-data nerfs in BDO...
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    At this point I dearly hope that Ashes does in fact have such a difficult boss that guilds will not make any farming videos about it, while still farming it successfully. At which point I'd ask Mag to explain to me how ez it would be to "just show video proof" for the complexity of the boss :) Doubt that'll happen though :/

    This isn't the 2000's there will be guide for all bosses time of gate keeping and nostalgia elitist bots is over.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    This isn't the 2000's there will be guide for all bosses time of gate keeping and nostalgia elitist bots is over.
    Just to amuse myself I shall ask you this. Who would make those guides? Could it, per chance, be the exact people I was talking about? The ones who'll be the very first to beat the boss? The ones who might wipe on said boss over a dozen times just to figure out how to beat it, exactly because FOR THEM there wouldn't be any guides to follow?
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    This isn't the 2000's there will be guide for all bosses time of gate keeping and nostalgia elitist bots is over.
    Just to amuse myself I shall ask you this. Who would make those guides? Could it, per chance, be the exact people I was talking about? The ones who'll be the very first to beat the boss? The ones who might wipe on said boss over a dozen times just to figure out how to beat it, exactly because FOR THEM there wouldn't be any guides to follow?

    The first don't always make guides, but eventually someone will. If no one made guides i 100% would. YouTube ad revenue would be insane with me being the only one making guides. Though that isn't realistic since videos will be up with twitch streamers and people using the content to make videos as well.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    I forgot that I was supposed to provide this for you.
    That 16th comment is really nostalgic :) remember countless such comments for countless people on forum L2's threads back in the day.
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