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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
To address this part as clearly as possible.
Jormungand's skill use is limited to a set number of things, yes, but which moves Jormungand uses is COMPLETELY RANDOM.
And yes, that actually does mean that it is chaotic, unpredictable, hard to counter, reaction based, and you can die from RNG.
So, one more time.
1.Ashes has a lot of EQ Devs, EQ bosses can be so unpredictable that you die from RNG.
2. FFXI has bosses that are so unpredictable that you die from RNG.
3. Steven has specifically said that there will be random skill usage.
I will add to this that the mechanics of a boss in Ashes may change based on:
Changes in the nearby nodes.
Time of day.
Weather.
How well you did against the previous boss.
To someone from EQ2 or FFXI, this all sounds normal. I for one expect 'dying to RNG' to be part of Ashes raiding. I do not consider it bad design.
I don't view that as chaotic I view that as part of the fight in the skill yet it can use that you need to prepare for. There is some rng involved in getting a bad roll on what a boss can do but its nothing that you fully don't expect.
This part I don't understand how are tanks stopping from getting threat? Are they worried about the spell that can damage them so they are not fully attacking and trying t guess when he uses it?
My definition is mechanics that are not fair or there is no pattern in a boss. A pattern being what does the boss do in a fight phase 1, phase 2, phase 3. If the boss has a bunch of wipe mechanics that are random and spawn randomly I'd view that as chaotic because it comes out of your control and you are dying to rng at that point. Like the example I gave earlier if you had a raid of 40 and everyone gets hit and its random for everyone what mechs you need to do with like 10 different mechs and based ont he amount of people pre mech it can change, that would be chaotic.
Then it isn't about what can the boss do anymore and you just having to prepare for anything and be expected to die a lot until you can get a good roll maybe.
You are currently failing to comprehend something, or just waffling, but it sounds like you are saying 'yes, chaotic'.
I have no specific interest in whether you consider Steven's designs bad or not. I only care that you understand them.
One of the design elements that we're implementing into our raids is that the raid will not be exactly the same every single time. You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well. We want there to be variables that get manifested by you know what type of node got developed elsewhere. Is he going to have acolytes or cultists? What will the acolytes have skills [available] to them? What kit is the boss gonna have? What available skill repertoire will the boss be able to [wield]? ... A lot of those systems are influenced obviously by world development. So the raid kind of takes into account at what stage has the world developed: Are there two metropolises now available in the world? Okay well let's activate this skill in this skill. Now you have five metropolises, well now all these skills have been activated. Are there are they all economic nodes? Are they all military nodes? That we can change things based on that stuff. And it really is a threat assessment from the environment against the players.[12] – Steven Sharif
Notice that this quote references 'the possibility of changing the adds' and the possibility of changes to the skills of the adds.
It also implies that you cannot go into a raid being sure which mechanics/skills the boss will even have. You might assume that 'none of those would kill you, that wouldn't be fair'.
I have fought Jormungand. To that, I say 'Ice Dragons don't care what you think is fair'.
And to address this one separately:
Yes, this is what I understand Raiding to be like. This is what I hope raiding is like. This is the sort of thing I have seen the 'beginnings' of in Alpha-1.
I am not concerned that we will not get this style of Raiding based on either of those quotes.
Can you understand that it is not unreasonable for me to expect this FROM ASHES?
Sieges will be chaotic. Caravan raids will be chaotic.
If PvP is so much more challenging than PvE, "chaotic", unpredictable bosses should not be an issue.
"One of the design elements that we're implementing into our raids is that the raid will not be exactly the same every single time. You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well. We want there to be variables that get manifested by you know what type of node got developed elsewhere. Is he going to have acolytes or cultists? What will the acolytes have skills [available] to them? What kit is the boss gonna have? What available skill repertoire will the boss be able to [wield]? ... A lot of those systems are influenced obviously by world development. So the raid kind of takes into account at what stage has the world developed: Are there two metropolises now available in the world? Okay well let's activate this skill in this skill. Now you have five metropolises, well now all these skills have been activated. Are there are they all economic nodes? Are they all military nodes? That we can change things based on that stuff. And it really is a threat assessment from the environment against the players."
---Steven
There is no waffling I've stated examples I consider so you have a direct thought you can compare one to one however you like.
I didn't state good or bad, I said that sounds about what Id expect in a mmorpg with less hand holding. You are inserting extra information into the convo why?
Yes I'm aware of that based on node development it can influence the PvE content and there can be changes in enemies. I think this is your bias coming in into what you want or you are overexaggerating base on what you hope or to try to prove your point. If adds spawn even if it is a surprise the first time you will know generally what to expect. Will they change the mechanics of the entire encounter I don't think so as they are just adds. The adds I'm reference would have a much large effect on the encounter I should have detailed on how that could be done but adds that involve strong mechanics as well. If you go into a dungeon and see what mobs are there around the boss you will know ahead of time as well what to expect just depends on how they design the encounter. In the end this is something we would have to see to judge it as you can do anything with design but my expectations are kept in check.
I know this goes back to them saying they didn't want bosses and dungeons to be overly spongy and wanted to involved more mechanics if a zerg walked in as well. What I think is fair and what I judge as unfair in mechanics in being chaotic are two different things. Which normally involves a game where death can be heavily rng involved and being unable to react to mechanics properly (ie one sec starts and is randomly placed, then you get unlucky with another rng mech and you die 100% of the time). There is nothing wrong with getting unlucky and maybe one dies or you take damage and have to adjust, but different when it involves a potential raid wipe.
I would keep expectations in check, it isn't about what I want but what the people want and the devs create. That is why its important to give positive feedback on this type of thing, I tried to start a thread on it but people were not that motivated on commenting on raiding more than once or bouncing ideas off each other. Sadly the arguments motivate people more.
Alright, let's move on from 'chaotic.
Again from the top, since you seem to be with me now.
1. I know that the devs of this game have worked on another game with random skill usage in encounters.
2. I have experienced a game where random skill usage is a strong aspect of playability and success from bosses.
3. I expect to see the same thing in Ashes.
I accept that you, having different experiences, also have different expectations. Are we at the point now where we can each accept the other's expectations, without claiming 'it will not be that way'?
Are you able to think 'I can see why Azherae expects bosses to be very random'?
Please be careful not to contradict yourself about what you consider good or bad.
I do not care about that video unless you plan to make a point with it. I refuse to make any inference from it. Focus please.
Are you able to think 'I can see why Azherae expects bosses to be very random'?
Random skill usage isn't chaotic, unless those skills have chaotic effects as i had mentioned earlier like upon being hit you have one of 10 random debuffs that can cause your death or a raid wipe.
When I'm talking about random skills, I'm talking every time you fight the boss it has new abilities that also involve heavy effects on the raid leading to wipes. So if raid wipes first time boss will now have new skills that they do not know about that involve new mechanics. Though of course no one knows what they are going to do, i don't see them doing something like this.
I am not talking about skills being used in the exact same pattern every time, though some patterns may exist in design to help players as well and give hints. Having higher and lower points in the raid of difficulty based on the flow and design they have.
This is a direct example of chaotic to me more on the worse side.
No problem, it's cool, I'll paste it again. I'll bold the part.
One of the design elements that we're implementing into our raids is that the raid will not be exactly the same every single time. You're going to have variables that can't necessarily be pre-planned out for. You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff; but I think the compelling aspect of Ashes raiding will be the difficulty in achieving this content and having that content change from session to session as well. We want there to be variables that get manifested by you know what type of node got developed elsewhere. Is he going to have acolytes or cultists? What will the acolytes have skills [available] to them? What kit is the boss gonna have? What available skill repertoire will the boss be able to [wield]? ... A lot of those systems are influenced obviously by world development. So the raid kind of takes into account at what stage has the world developed: Are there two metropolises now available in the world? Okay well let's activate this skill in this skill. Now you have five metropolises, well now all these skills have been activated. Are there are they all economic nodes? Are they all military nodes? That we can change things based on that stuff. And it really is a threat assessment from the environment against the players.[12] – Steven Sharif
Can you understand why I do expect them to do something like this?
I think you are putting too much emphasis on content changing as you have a thought or desire you want and you are trying to put that in connection with it. What is the content that will change, how will that effect the raid, will it be in a large way, will different heavy mechanics be changed, how long do session last, how often do the repeat, what are the changes to add abilities and do they involve or change the mechanics , are the changes involving wipe mechanics.
Until we see the game its better to keep expectations in check, I don't potentially see those as being chaotic depending on how those questions are answered and what they do with the game design. That doesn't mean the content wont be extremely hard if they make it to do so.
If you are expecting them to have different move sets time to time and some surprise attacks sure I can see that. But we are talking about chaotic and I don't deem that chaotic.
This is fine, because that is your opinion. you have an opinion that I am putting a lot of emphasis on content changing.
So are we at 'there is a possibility that when Steven says that he thinks the compelling aspect of Ashes Raiding will be difficulty in achieving the content and in content changing, he means that the content will significantly change'?
You don't need to believe this means 'big changes' or 'small changes'. Only 'compelling and difficult' changes. Good enough?
EDIT: In case it is unclear, I have completely conceded the point about the word 'chaotic' to you and am no longer addressing it.
By the way one of my interest in AoC was the dungeons and the random elements of it something I've always thought was cool even though most games do it in a generic way. Though I keep my expectations in check and low. But if they surprise me that be great, though i wouldn't expect bosses to be that unpredictable every single time. But if there is enough changes in variety it will make things feel fresh then running the same thing over and over again.
It was suppose to be like that in Too human but was a bit disappointed and things didn't feel that random. And thank you for for discussion this part felt a lot better on trying to understand than just argue.
No problem. I did say that I learned from watching your matches, after all.
Can you understand why my expectations are wild (not 'in check') and high, because of the games I come from? Can you understand why Noaani's expectations might also be 'wild' and high in comparison to yours?
EDIT: To be clear, I'm not asking this in order to 'start another whole argument based on it'. I'm stopping for now, I would just really like to end this on a positive note where we've both moved closer to the other's priors.
I can understand on what you want and see ya.
Him I just see insults more then anything else at this point, no clue what he wants. I just know he thinks action combat is impossible and plus insults.
Well, one step at a time, from both of us. It's up to Noaani if any 'step-taking' will happen from that end. Maybe tomorrow, who knows.
"Thanks for the match."
I will however just drop an opinion of mine though, I have -always- been more engaged in action combat games as opposed to tab-target. I have seen the argument crop up a couple of times regarding action combat having no place in Raids / Large Scale events. I find it difficult to understand this take, we as humans are constantly iterating on past designs, enhancing them, game design is no different. Take the floppy disk for example, the first ever 3-1/2 inch floppy disk held a total of 1.44mb...we now have a multitude of modern data storage options & none of which would be the outdated floppy disk. Forget old game design, look to the future, and try to imagine what could be.
Yeah, people will take mostly tab target abilities for top end content, and then when they want to PvP they will respec to mostly action combat.
You know I have said exactly this, as you have argued against it. How you can say that the above is arguing from a tab target only perspective is beyond me.
My un iased opinion on this matter is that Ashes should have hybrid combat, and people will naturally gravitate towards tab abilities for PvE content, and action for PvP.
This is a stance you know I have.
Your distance, as far as I can see, is to hold your hands over your ears and scream to yourself "ACTION COMBAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS" over and over again.
I mean, you refuse to listen to reasoned opinions to the point where you do not even know the foundation of the opinions you are arguing against.
And just for the record, Azherae is 100% correct about chaotic raids. They exist, and are in fact the raids I have been talking about the entire time you and I have been conversing.
Raids that have a pattern are inherently easy. Raids that do not have a pattern are harder than any PvP you will ever see.
You are so lost its not even worth the effort, keep making assumptions. All you can do is talk garbage, we have gone from me saying action combat can do all forms of content, to you assuming the only thing i care about action combat against your weird take.
You haven't talked about any raids, all you can do is say things exist but not back anything up with videos, for even talk about mechanics in these raids. I've said it before ill say it again your content doesn't exist and is just nostalgia the exact reason why you can't give any evidence lmao.
I forgot that I was supposed to provide this for you.
Back to checking for stealth frame-data nerfs in BDO...
This isn't the 2000's there will be guide for all bosses time of gate keeping and nostalgia elitist bots is over.
The first don't always make guides, but eventually someone will. If no one made guides i 100% would. YouTube ad revenue would be insane with me being the only one making guides. Though that isn't realistic since videos will be up with twitch streamers and people using the content to make videos as well.