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I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

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Comments

  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »

    PvE is not competitive wearing a fake badge saying you did something first doesn't mean anything.
    I mean, isnt everything in an MMO just a fake badge?

    That said, how about we look back at EQ2.

    The games open world raid encounters were labeled - by the developers - as 'contested raid encounters'. The first raid to arrive with enough players and successfully kill said encounter gets the rewards.

    Since these encounters had actual competition over them (there would often be 5+ guilds attempting them), and since literally every item they dropped was best in slot, and ALSO since they were added to the game in order to be a form of competition, you cant say there is no PvE competition in MMO's.

    Unless you want to say the developer of that game - a number of whom are making this game - dont know English well enough to properly label their own content.

    However, I doubt you are literarily diluted enough to make that claim of anyone else.

    Then you could look at games that have dungeon leaderboards.

    Again, you are welcome to say you haven't participated in competitive PvE. No one would doubt this. What you cant really say though, is that there is no competitive PvE. Not without being outright, objectively wrong.

    PvE is not competitive it doesn't matter how you try to swing it in your mind or trying to create some scenario where it is to you, manipulate the conversation in attempt to make me say something about other people, you are fighting AI.


    vb0j3wps64j5.png

    With this mindset, you dont need leaderboards, or rankings in pvp either. Because the pvp itself is the competition. No point in recording stats as recording stats is obviously not competitive.

    You don't need it in pvp, stats are just fun to have in games in general because people like a extra sense of achievement. Also the main points on pvp will be sieges and guild wars, so winning those even more so siege as it effects the world. It is a clear statement where you don't need any leaderboard to show what you are are accomplishing and winning or losing as guild.

    If it relates to arena matches though though leaderboards aren't needed and you can have a rank assigned to you, there is no reason for the rankings not to be seen for everyone so they know where they stand. As well as what they need to do to get where they wank in the ranking as they continue to fight people.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Warth wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »

    PvE is not competitive it doesn't matter how you try to swing it in your mind or trying to create some scenario where it is to you, manipulate the conversation in attempt to make me say something about other people, you are fighting AI.
    Fighting the AI does not preclude competition.

    Look back at old school arcade machines where you would put your initials in if you got a high score. There was a lot of competition there.

    Or you could look at what is easily the most competitive aspect of gaming today - speedrunning.

    At this point, the number of examples of player vs AI I have given you where there is competition between players, you literally have to be willfully not wanting to understand in order to, well, not understand.

    Nonono. Everything that isn't pitting people against each other isn't competitive. Even in sports...
    Don't you know that racing, climbing, swimming, skiing... aren't competitive sports? Only sports like Tennis, Boxing, Chess etc. can be competitive
    The billions of people following other sports are simply wrong and would be better off looking for real competition Noaani
    /s

    Oh yeah, swimming is, after all, just player vs water.

    I myself have never lost to the water. Im quite good.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »

    PvE is not competitive wearing a fake badge saying you did something first doesn't mean anything.
    I mean, isnt everything in an MMO just a fake badge?

    That said, how about we look back at EQ2.

    The games open world raid encounters were labeled - by the developers - as 'contested raid encounters'. The first raid to arrive with enough players and successfully kill said encounter gets the rewards.

    Since these encounters had actual competition over them (there would often be 5+ guilds attempting them), and since literally every item they dropped was best in slot, and ALSO since they were added to the game in order to be a form of competition, you cant say there is no PvE competition in MMO's.

    Unless you want to say the developer of that game - a number of whom are making this game - dont know English well enough to properly label their own content.

    However, I doubt you are literarily diluted enough to make that claim of anyone else.

    Then you could look at games that have dungeon leaderboards.

    Again, you are welcome to say you haven't participated in competitive PvE. No one would doubt this. What you cant really say though, is that there is no competitive PvE. Not without being outright, objectively wrong.

    PvE is not competitive it doesn't matter how you try to swing it in your mind or trying to create some scenario where it is to you, manipulate the conversation in attempt to make me say something about other people, you are fighting AI.


    vb0j3wps64j5.png

    With this mindset, you dont need leaderboards, or rankings in pvp either. Because the pvp itself is the competition. No point in recording stats as recording stats is obviously not competitive.

    You don't need it in pvp, stats are just fun to have in games in general because people like a extra sense of achievement. Also the main points on pvp will be sieges and guild wars, so winning those even more so siege as it effects the world. It is a clear statement where you don't need any leaderboard to show what you are are accomplishing and winning or losing as guild.

    If it relates to arena matches though though leaderboards aren't needed and you can have a rank assigned to you, there is no reason for the rankings not to be seen for everyone so they know where they stand. As well as what they need to do to get where they wank in the ranking as they continue to fight people.

    And you dont think people will compete over the pve elements in ashes? You're going to be doing all your pvp without having gear made by drops of raids and such? You are not going to join your guild in competing with other guilds to do this open world pve stuff?
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »

    PvE is not competitive it doesn't matter how you try to swing it in your mind or trying to create some scenario where it is to you, manipulate the conversation in attempt to make me say something about other people, you are fighting AI.
    Fighting the AI does not preclude competition.

    Look back at old school arcade machines where you would put your initials in if you got a high score. There was a lot of competition there.

    Or you could look at what is easily the most competitive aspect of gaming today - speedrunning.

    At this point, the number of examples of player vs AI I have given you where there is competition between players, you literally have to be willfully not wanting to understand in order to, well, not understand.

    People do that on the arcade trying to get the top score sure, that is more competitive than World first PvE because it is more on a fair playing field. Though still not something I see being that competitive as it is just a AI bot. Competition is against players directly, not indirectly with AI. Just because it isn't competitive doesn't mean it isn't challenging or it means the player is lesser then a pvper. Pve is just cooperative working together and figuring things out together until you have the guides then you just follow them (Which will be the normal experience for 99% of people in the game).
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »

    PvE is not competitive it doesn't matter how you try to swing it in your mind or trying to create some scenario where it is to you, manipulate the conversation in attempt to make me say something about other people, you are fighting AI.
    Fighting the AI does not preclude competition.

    Look back at old school arcade machines where you would put your initials in if you got a high score. There was a lot of competition there.

    Or you could look at what is easily the most competitive aspect of gaming today - speedrunning.

    At this point, the number of examples of player vs AI I have given you where there is competition between players, you literally have to be willfully not wanting to understand in order to, well, not understand.

    People do that on the arcade trying to get the top score sure, that is more competitive than World first PvE because it is more on a fair playing field. Though still not something I see being that competitive as it is just a AI bot. Competition is against players directly, not indirectly with AI. Just because it isn't competitive doesn't mean it isn't challenging or it means the player is lesser then a pvper. Pve is just cooperative working together and figuring things out together until you have the guides then you just follow them (Which will be the normal experience for 99% of people in the game).

    Pve competition is more than who is first....

    Whos first.
    Whos fastest.
    Whos done it with the least amount of players.
    Whos done it at lowest levels.

    And im sure other examples exist.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »

    PvE is not competitive wearing a fake badge saying you did something first doesn't mean anything.
    I mean, isnt everything in an MMO just a fake badge?

    That said, how about we look back at EQ2.

    The games open world raid encounters were labeled - by the developers - as 'contested raid encounters'. The first raid to arrive with enough players and successfully kill said encounter gets the rewards.

    Since these encounters had actual competition over them (there would often be 5+ guilds attempting them), and since literally every item they dropped was best in slot, and ALSO since they were added to the game in order to be a form of competition, you cant say there is no PvE competition in MMO's.

    Unless you want to say the developer of that game - a number of whom are making this game - dont know English well enough to properly label their own content.

    However, I doubt you are literarily diluted enough to make that claim of anyone else.

    Then you could look at games that have dungeon leaderboards.

    Again, you are welcome to say you haven't participated in competitive PvE. No one would doubt this. What you cant really say though, is that there is no competitive PvE. Not without being outright, objectively wrong.

    PvE is not competitive it doesn't matter how you try to swing it in your mind or trying to create some scenario where it is to you, manipulate the conversation in attempt to make me say something about other people, you are fighting AI.


    vb0j3wps64j5.png

    With this mindset, you dont need leaderboards, or rankings in pvp either. Because the pvp itself is the competition. No point in recording stats as recording stats is obviously not competitive.

    You don't need it in pvp, stats are just fun to have in games in general because people like a extra sense of achievement. Also the main points on pvp will be sieges and guild wars, so winning those even more so siege as it effects the world. It is a clear statement where you don't need any leaderboard to show what you are are accomplishing and winning or losing as guild.

    If it relates to arena matches though though leaderboards aren't needed and you can have a rank assigned to you, there is no reason for the rankings not to be seen for everyone so they know where they stand. As well as what they need to do to get where they wank in the ranking as they continue to fight people.

    And you dont think people will compete over the pve elements in ashes? You're going to be doing all your pvp without having gear made by drops of raids and such? You are not going to join your guild in competing with other guilds to do this open world pve stuff?

    You mean as in fight each other over pve stuff?
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »

    PvE is not competitive wearing a fake badge saying you did something first doesn't mean anything.
    I mean, isnt everything in an MMO just a fake badge?

    That said, how about we look back at EQ2.

    The games open world raid encounters were labeled - by the developers - as 'contested raid encounters'. The first raid to arrive with enough players and successfully kill said encounter gets the rewards.

    Since these encounters had actual competition over them (there would often be 5+ guilds attempting them), and since literally every item they dropped was best in slot, and ALSO since they were added to the game in order to be a form of competition, you cant say there is no PvE competition in MMO's.

    Unless you want to say the developer of that game - a number of whom are making this game - dont know English well enough to properly label their own content.

    However, I doubt you are literarily diluted enough to make that claim of anyone else.

    Then you could look at games that have dungeon leaderboards.

    Again, you are welcome to say you haven't participated in competitive PvE. No one would doubt this. What you cant really say though, is that there is no competitive PvE. Not without being outright, objectively wrong.

    PvE is not competitive it doesn't matter how you try to swing it in your mind or trying to create some scenario where it is to you, manipulate the conversation in attempt to make me say something about other people, you are fighting AI.


    vb0j3wps64j5.png

    With this mindset, you dont need leaderboards, or rankings in pvp either. Because the pvp itself is the competition. No point in recording stats as recording stats is obviously not competitive.

    You don't need it in pvp, stats are just fun to have in games in general because people like a extra sense of achievement. Also the main points on pvp will be sieges and guild wars, so winning those even more so siege as it effects the world. It is a clear statement where you don't need any leaderboard to show what you are are accomplishing and winning or losing as guild.

    If it relates to arena matches though though leaderboards aren't needed and you can have a rank assigned to you, there is no reason for the rankings not to be seen for everyone so they know where they stand. As well as what they need to do to get where they wank in the ranking as they continue to fight people.

    And you dont think people will compete over the pve elements in ashes? You're going to be doing all your pvp without having gear made by drops of raids and such? You are not going to join your guild in competing with other guilds to do this open world pve stuff?

    You mean as in fight each other over pve stuff?

    Oh please. Dont you dare try and say that pvp can be caused by pve. Thats insane. That would be like... pvx or something. Unthinkable.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »

    PvE is not competitive it doesn't matter how you try to swing it in your mind or trying to create some scenario where it is to you, manipulate the conversation in attempt to make me say something about other people, you are fighting AI.
    Fighting the AI does not preclude competition.

    Look back at old school arcade machines where you would put your initials in if you got a high score. There was a lot of competition there.

    Or you could look at what is easily the most competitive aspect of gaming today - speedrunning.

    At this point, the number of examples of player vs AI I have given you where there is competition between players, you literally have to be willfully not wanting to understand in order to, well, not understand.

    People do that on the arcade trying to get the top score sure, that is more competitive than World first PvE because it is more on a fair playing field. Though still not something I see being that competitive as it is just a AI bot. Competition is against players directly, not indirectly with AI. Just because it isn't competitive doesn't mean it isn't challenging or it means the player is lesser then a pvper. Pve is just cooperative working together and figuring things out together until you have the guides then you just follow them (Which will be the normal experience for 99% of people in the game).

    Pve competition is more than who is first....

    Whos first.
    Whos fastest.
    Whos done it with the least amount of players.
    Whos done it at lowest levels.

    And im sure other examples exist.

    Those are accomplishments yes and a test to either skill or knowledge on a fight and ability to solve /bypass a puzzle the most effective way. People have competitive mindsets certainly more elitist type people where they try to turn everything into a competition. Trying to turn something into a competition and something being competitive are two different things.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »

    PvE is not competitive it doesn't matter how you try to swing it in your mind or trying to create some scenario where it is to you, manipulate the conversation in attempt to make me say something about other people, you are fighting AI.
    Fighting the AI does not preclude competition.

    Look back at old school arcade machines where you would put your initials in if you got a high score. There was a lot of competition there.

    Or you could look at what is easily the most competitive aspect of gaming today - speedrunning.

    At this point, the number of examples of player vs AI I have given you where there is competition between players, you literally have to be willfully not wanting to understand in order to, well, not understand.

    People do that on the arcade trying to get the top score sure, that is more competitive than World first PvE because it is more on a fair playing field. Though still not something I see being that competitive as it is just a AI bot. Competition is against players directly, not indirectly with AI. Just because it isn't competitive doesn't mean it isn't challenging or it means the player is lesser then a pvper. Pve is just cooperative working together and figuring things out together until you have the guides then you just follow them (Which will be the normal experience for 99% of people in the game).

    Pve competition is more than who is first....

    Whos first.
    Whos fastest.
    Whos done it with the least amount of players.
    Whos done it at lowest levels.

    And im sure other examples exist.

    Those are accomplishments yes and a test to either skill or knowledge on a fight and ability to solve /bypass a puzzle the most effective way. People have competitive mindsets certainly more elitist type people where they try to turn everything into a competition. Trying to turn something into a competition and something being competitive are two different things.

    Lol, you're a joke
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »

    PvE is not competitive wearing a fake badge saying you did something first doesn't mean anything.
    I mean, isnt everything in an MMO just a fake badge?

    That said, how about we look back at EQ2.

    The games open world raid encounters were labeled - by the developers - as 'contested raid encounters'. The first raid to arrive with enough players and successfully kill said encounter gets the rewards.

    Since these encounters had actual competition over them (there would often be 5+ guilds attempting them), and since literally every item they dropped was best in slot, and ALSO since they were added to the game in order to be a form of competition, you cant say there is no PvE competition in MMO's.

    Unless you want to say the developer of that game - a number of whom are making this game - dont know English well enough to properly label their own content.

    However, I doubt you are literarily diluted enough to make that claim of anyone else.

    Then you could look at games that have dungeon leaderboards.

    Again, you are welcome to say you haven't participated in competitive PvE. No one would doubt this. What you cant really say though, is that there is no competitive PvE. Not without being outright, objectively wrong.

    PvE is not competitive it doesn't matter how you try to swing it in your mind or trying to create some scenario where it is to you, manipulate the conversation in attempt to make me say something about other people, you are fighting AI.


    vb0j3wps64j5.png

    With this mindset, you dont need leaderboards, or rankings in pvp either. Because the pvp itself is the competition. No point in recording stats as recording stats is obviously not competitive.

    You don't need it in pvp, stats are just fun to have in games in general because people like a extra sense of achievement. Also the main points on pvp will be sieges and guild wars, so winning those even more so siege as it effects the world. It is a clear statement where you don't need any leaderboard to show what you are are accomplishing and winning or losing as guild.

    If it relates to arena matches though though leaderboards aren't needed and you can have a rank assigned to you, there is no reason for the rankings not to be seen for everyone so they know where they stand. As well as what they need to do to get where they wank in the ranking as they continue to fight people.

    And you dont think people will compete over the pve elements in ashes? You're going to be doing all your pvp without having gear made by drops of raids and such? You are not going to join your guild in competing with other guilds to do this open world pve stuff?

    You mean as in fight each other over pve stuff?

    Oh please. Dont you dare try and say that pvp can be caused by pve. Thats insane. That would be like... pvx or something. Unthinkable.

    I'm just asking generally so i don't misunderstand. Anytime pvp is involved it will 100% be competitive. But I'm talking about PvE not PvX. And technically if your guild is never attacked during the dungeons or plays it safe to avoid pvp at all cost it would just be pve.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Some of that PvE will still be competitive - even if not directly combating others.
    But, it's not a binary issue. PvP combat is not the only form of player v player competition in Ashes.
    Noaani is telling you that there is also competitive PvE and it can be significant.
    And you are saying that any PvP is technically competitive - even when yo are max level ganking newbies.

    What's your actual point supposed to be??
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Some of that PvE will still be competitive - even if not directly combating others.
    But, it's not a binary issue. PvP combat is not the only form of player v player competition in Ashes.
    Noaani is telling you that there is also competitive PvE and it can be significant.
    And you are saying that any PvP is technically competitive - even when yo are max level ganking newbies.

    What's your actual point supposed to be??

    I've commented on this already and the same thing applies. PvE is cooperative not competitive, if you are trying to create a competition between players where they do not see it as such or there is some unfair standing or nothing for it to be competitive in truth about it is simply you trying to push competition on someone that doesn't see it like that. Same way can be used in reserve where you do a dungeon without a guide and then someone beats the dungeon faster than your group did it the first time using a guide and information. Everything is subjective as it is simply some people creating that element changing a coop experience into something it isn't. People simply are forcing rules on a experience again subjective in nature on deciding what they deem in valid or not our of their own competitive nature. The same applies to killing lowbies and saying you are the strongest player then logging off.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Some of that PvE will still be competitive - even if not directly combating others.
    But, it's not a binary issue. PvP combat is not the only form of player v player competition in Ashes.
    Noaani is telling you that there is also competitive PvE and it can be significant.
    And you are saying that any PvP is technically competitive - even when yo are max level ganking newbies.

    What's your actual point supposed to be??

    I've commented on this already and the same thing applies. PvE is cooperative not competitive, if you are trying to create a competition between players where they do not see it as such or there is some unfair standing or nothing for it to be competitive in truth about it is simply you trying to push competition on someone that doesn't see it like that. Same way can be used in reserve where you do a dungeon without a guide and then someone beats the dungeon faster than your group did it the first time using a guide and information. Everything is subjective as it is simply some people creating that element changing a coop experience into something it isn't. People simply are forcing rules on a experience again subjective in nature on deciding what they deem in valid or not our of their own competitive nature. The same applies to killing lowbies and saying you are the strongest player then logging off.

    Okay, this might be the best formulated explanation they've ever posted.

    They are trying to point out that PVE is not designed with competition in mind, and players make it competitive.


    And in that same vain. I dont think pvp is competitive. I dont kill players in game to compete with them, i just want the loot. So what you think is competitive, is just something you are pushing on me.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    And in that same vain. I dont think pvp is competitive. I dont kill players in game to compete with them, i just want the loot. So what you think is competitive, is just something you are pushing on me.
    Hell, I've killed literal thousands in L2 w/o any reason at all. I was just running towards a farming spot, saw a flagged dude and killed him. That's it. 0 competition.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Some of that PvE will still be competitive - even if not directly combating others.
    But, it's not a binary issue. PvP combat is not the only form of player v player competition in Ashes.
    Noaani is telling you that there is also competitive PvE and it can be significant.
    And you are saying that any PvP is technically competitive - even when yo are max level ganking newbies.

    What's your actual point supposed to be??

    I've commented on this already and the same thing applies. PvE is cooperative not competitive, if you are trying to create a competition between players where they do not see it as such or there is some unfair standing or nothing for it to be competitive in truth about it is simply you trying to push competition on someone that doesn't see it like that. Same way can be used in reserve where you do a dungeon without a guide and then someone beats the dungeon faster than your group did it the first time using a guide and information. Everything is subjective as it is simply some people creating that element changing a coop experience into something it isn't. People simply are forcing rules on a experience again subjective in nature on deciding what they deem in valid or not our of their own competitive nature. The same applies to killing lowbies and saying you are the strongest player then logging off.

    Okay, this might be the best formulated explanation they've ever posted.

    They are trying to point out that PVE is not designed with competition in mind, and players make it competitive.


    And in that same vain. I dont think pvp is competitive. I dont kill players in game to compete with them, i just want the loot. So what you think is competitive, is just something you are pushing on me.

    I goes deeper than that actually, that is just the first layer but yes its not designed to be competitive. A game that is PvP is competitive in nature, though it doesn't mean every pvp instance is competitive. If you run up and gank someone and one tap them that isn't very competitive (Though if they come back to fight that is a different story). If you run up on someone and it is a fight that is a lot more competitive as you are fighting over potential loot / guild wars/ etc. If you weren't trying to kill them to complete, you wouldn't be killing them at all as wanting the loot is competing with them. They have a rare material and you are turning it into a competition on who gets that loot by fighting them. Through pking you gain loot, through loot you gain strength and drama, through drama you have more competitive guild wars, through winning your chains are broken. There is a difference when pushing with direct conflict with each other to fight, to survive and a winner is made.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I've commented on this already and the same thing applies. PvE is cooperative not competitive, if you are trying to create a competition between players where they do not see it as such or there is some unfair standing or nothing for it to be competitive in truth about it is simply you trying to push competition on someone that doesn't see it like that.
    PvE can be cooperative or competitive depending on the activity.
    I dunno what you mean by "trying to create a competition".
    "Where players do not see it as such" is irrelevant.

    Ashes is PvX.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    And in that same vain. I dont think pvp is competitive. I dont kill players in game to compete with them, i just want the loot. So what you think is competitive, is just something you are pushing on me.
    Hell, I've killed literal thousands in L2 w/o any reason at all. I was just running towards a farming spot, saw a flagged dude and killed him. That's it. 0 competition.

    I feel this is a post agreeing to just agreeing since I'm involved lol. It depends on the situation and if a proper fight was had. If there is a fight its two people testing their skills against each other so its competitive. Else you would just ignore them and not deal with them.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Okay, this might be the best formulated explanation they've ever posted.

    They are trying to point out that PVE is not designed with competition in mind, and players make it competitive.
    That is not true for Ashes.
    Some of the PvE is intentionally designed to be competitive.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I feel this is a post agreeing to just agreeing since I'm involved lol. It depends on the situation and if a proper fight was had. If there is a fight its two people testing their skills against each other so its competitive. Else you would just ignore them and not deal with them.
    Nope, it was literally just flagged people who were free targets for me to kill. Even if they fought back there was no competition because there was nothing to compete for. We just fought, someone died and the winner moved on with whatever they were doing.

    You're trying to live a black&white life in a grey world.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    And in that same vain. I dont think pvp is competitive. I dont kill players in game to compete with them, i just want the loot. So what you think is competitive, is just something you are pushing on me.
    Hell, I've killed literal thousands in L2 w/o any reason at all. I was just running towards a farming spot, saw a flagged dude and killed him. That's it. 0 competition.

    Ok I'm left with a quandary now, because on the one hand, I know enough about Mag to want to tell y'all to lay off kinda, but I also don't have a way to explain it without possibly having the opposite effect.

    So I'll see if I can be sort of ambiguous about it.

    Awhile back Mag pointed out something that seemed a little incongruous to me, but it speaks to the core of perception when combined with one other thing.

    "If you found matches of me it was of this high-rank player who uploads his wins."

    Combine this with:
    "Ranked isn't the same because you can't have a good chat with your opponent while you're fighting."

    and:
    "I'm not talking about elitists.".

    See, the previous claim of 'being top 10 in Soul Calibur' or even 'Being in a top guild on New World', aren't 'bragging about being the best', they're 'indications of competence'. Imagine what happens when a self-aware competent player is having a conversation with an elitist. The competent player brings examples to demonstrate competence, not 'top percentile performance'.

    Similarly, if challenged by an unknown, statistically, one could assume (since most players are not competent) that the challenger is also not competent, and therefore could be justified in claiming/expecting to win if one faced that challenger in battle, right?

    In order to understand Mag's point, you have to start from the perspective that Mag does not assume that others are 'more than competent' until they prove it in some way that elevates them to 'elitist'. This is a foundation for a view of 'competitive' limited to 'competition between those of standard competence' that matches with the model, even if it does not match that of 'elitists'.

    So in a way, we might be the ones 'building a strawman' too, because of being so used to people on the internet who speak LIKE Mag does but actually believe they are REALLY REALLY good at things, like, top level.

    If Mag counters all this by going 'nah I definitely mean I'm one of the best don't insult me' or anything like that, well... carry on.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    So in a way, we might be the ones 'building a strawman' too, because of being so used to people on the internet who speak LIKE Mag does but actually believe they are REALLY REALLY good at things, like, top level.
    Could be. I was just trying to give an example of pvp not being competitive (at least in the general definition of competition). Though I then went to reassure my knowledge of that definition and one sub-meaning couuuld maybe include "just killed a dude w/o a reason" under its umbrella, but at that point it'd be more of a philosophical and psychological issue rather than a semantic one.

    Mag just likes to argue between 2 extremes, disregarding the middle of the spectrum, which I find at least a bit silly :)
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    NiKr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    So in a way, we might be the ones 'building a strawman' too, because of being so used to people on the internet who speak LIKE Mag does but actually believe they are REALLY REALLY good at things, like, top level.
    Could be. I was just trying to give an example of pvp not being competitive (at least in the general definition of competition). Though I then went to reassure my knowledge of that definition and one sub-meaning couuuld maybe include "just killed a dude w/o a reason" under its umbrella, but at that point it'd be more of a philosophical and psychological issue rather than a semantic one.

    Mag just likes to argue between 2 extremes, disregarding the middle of the spectrum, which I find at least a bit silly :)

    You sure though?

    It's just a perspective that is often hard for either the top (actual consistent top 10 players) or 'bottom' (players who are so casual they don't even know mechanics) to understand.

    I think it might ACTUALLY be totally valid, within MMOs. to say 'PvE isn't competitive' through this lens.

    If you aren't at the top, and you aren't at the bottom, chances are you are not actually competing with anyone at all, you're acting opportunistically against an AI that the top have already told you how to win against.

    In PvP, at least, this isn't the same. Mid-level PvP is still competitive partially because the players are 'good enough to know what is happening', but not necessarily 'good enough to know what is optimal'. They're trying, adapting, and learning.

    If the competition for PvE is 'to be first' and you as the 'average player' are NEVER first, you're not competing. I believe this point's been made before, but you just have to put the perspective on. Mag IS saying 'yes, because I am not trying for World First, this is not competitive, no one like me is actually competitive about PvE'.

    Sure, it may not be a meaningful take to someone who is explicitly talking about top level competitive PvE, but it makes more sense to believe the speaker when he repeatedly tells us 'that's not what I'm talking about'.

    EDIT: tl;dr Marathon running isn't competitive for the middle of the pack, that's not why they are there.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »

    PvE is not competitive it doesn't matter how you try to swing it in your mind or trying to create some scenario where it is to you, manipulate the conversation in attempt to make me say something about other people, you are fighting AI.
    Fighting the AI does not preclude competition.

    Look back at old school arcade machines where you would put your initials in if you got a high score. There was a lot of competition there.

    Or you could look at what is easily the most competitive aspect of gaming today - speedrunning.

    At this point, the number of examples of player vs AI I have given you where there is competition between players, you literally have to be willfully not wanting to understand in order to, well, not understand.

    People do that on the arcade trying to get the top score sure, that is more competitive than World first PvE because it is more on a fair playing field. Though still not something I see being that competitive as it is just a AI bot. Competition is against players directly, not indirectly with AI. Just because it isn't competitive doesn't mean it isn't challenging or it means the player is lesser then a pvper. Pve is just cooperative working together and figuring things out together until you have the guides then you just follow them (Which will be the normal experience for 99% of people in the game).

    So, there is no competition in F1 racing, the Tour de France, most Olympic competitions. Companies in the same field are not in competition with each other, the Space Race wasnt a competition.

    You are obviously just focusing on one definition of the word, ignoring the multitude of others.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    EDIT: tl;dr Marathon running isn't competitive for the middle of the pack, that's not why they are there.
    This is funny cause I wanted to bring up marathons to make my point :D Wanted to say that to most people marathons are just about completing the thing, while some people try going for best times and amongst themselves they are, in fact, competing.
    Azherae wrote: »
    In PvP, at least, this isn't the same. Mid-level PvP is still competitive partially because the players are 'good enough to know what is happening', but not necessarily 'good enough to know what is optimal'. They're trying, adapting, and learning.
    This was what I tried addressing with my "thousands of meaningless pvp" post. I wasn't claiming that I was at the top of the server or even anywhere near top %ile, but exactly because of that the pvp in the middle could quite often be meaningless because people just had fun killing each other simply because they could.

    And mag has contradicted himself from post to post.
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Anytime pvp is involved it will 100% be competitive.
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    A game that is PvP is competitive in nature, though it doesn't mean every pvp instance is competitive.
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    It depends on the situation and if a proper fight was had. If there is a fight its two people testing their skills against each other so its competitive. Else you would just ignore them and not deal with them.
    It goes from "100% competitive" to "not always" to "if you're equal then it's definitely competitive".

    So one might think that Mag understands that it's a spectrum rather than a binary, but every time pve competitiveness is brought up he immediately backtracks to "no, it ain't" and doesn't even interact the idea of competition in pve.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    And mag has contradicted himself from post to post.
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Anytime pvp is involved it will 100% be competitive.
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    A game that is PvP is competitive in nature, though it doesn't mean every pvp instance is competitive.
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    It depends on the situation and if a proper fight was had. If there is a fight its two people testing their skills against each other so its competitive. Else you would just ignore them and not deal with them.
    It goes from "100% competitive" to "not always" to "if you're equal then it's definitely competitive".

    So one might think that Mag understands that it's a spectrum rather than a binary, but every time pve competitiveness is brought up he immediately backtracks to "no, it ain't" and doesn't even interact the idea of competition in pve.

    Hm, I believe I stand corrected here. I do tend to look 'through' things people say too often.

    In the end, if one is contradicting oneself, even if it doesn't feel that way internally, others should be able to call you out on it and at least request or require clarification.

    Good 'luck' getting it. No sarc.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    LMAO
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    LMFAO

    ROFLMAO
    Hell yeah bros

    We all know only action combat pve is competitive. Wait, only tab target pve. One of the two. We all know it.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    We all know only action combat pve is competitive. Wait, only tab target pve. One of the two. We all know it.
    I know it, you know it, he knows it, everybody knows it.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    100%
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    And mag has contradicted himself from post to post.
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Anytime pvp is involved it will 100% be competitive.
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    A game that is PvP is competitive in nature, though it doesn't mean every pvp instance is competitive.
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    It depends on the situation and if a proper fight was had. If there is a fight its two people testing their skills against each other so its competitive. Else you would just ignore them and not deal with them.
    It goes from "100% competitive" to "not always" to "if you're equal then it's definitely competitive".

    So one might think that Mag understands that it's a spectrum rather than a binary, but every time pve competitiveness is brought up he immediately backtracks to "no, it ain't" and doesn't even interact the idea of competition in pve.

    Hm, I believe I stand corrected here. I do tend to look 'through' things people say too often.

    In the end, if one is contradicting oneself, even if it doesn't feel that way internally, others should be able to call you out on it and at least request or require clarification.

    Good 'luck' getting it. No sarc.

    He is taking things out of context in a conversation because he is bad on my statement at the end of the day. Not really hard to take points with other replies not relating to his own and use it, its just kind of sad. Exact reason what he means when he doesn't care to give respect.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    I think no one knows what your intended context is, at this point.
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