I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

That said, there is expected to be some instanced content in Ashes, and if I had to bet on EITHER the Instanced or the Open World bosses being the 'Tier 5-7', I'd actually assume the Instanced ones would be.

Or that there was a ladder, where OW bosses are at Tier2, 4, 6, and are very Mitigation Check heavy, such that you need to succeed at the Tier 1, 3, 5, to have the defense gear required to stand up to them. Easy basic stagger design.

Yeah, I expect Intrepid to either go back on that design decision or to go with smth like you described. They've said that instanced bosses won't be repeatable and won't give you BiS stuff though, so I dunno tbh. There's a ton of question when it comes to their pve promises. And the "only a few % of people can clear it" is probably the most problematic one cause there's just too many implications that come with it, and none of them really work in the context of what's widely accepted as top lvl pve content in mmos.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

That said, there is expected to be some instanced content in Ashes, and if I had to bet on EITHER the Instanced or the Open World bosses being the 'Tier 5-7', I'd actually assume the Instanced ones would be.

Or that there was a ladder, where OW bosses are at Tier2, 4, 6, and are very Mitigation Check heavy, such that you need to succeed at the Tier 1, 3, 5, to have the defense gear required to stand up to them. Easy basic stagger design.

Yeah, I expect Intrepid to either go back on that design decision or to go with smth like you described. They've said that instanced bosses won't be repeatable and won't give you BiS stuff though, so I dunno tbh. There's a ton of question when it comes to their pve promises. And the "only a few % of people can clear it" is probably the most problematic one cause there's just too many implications that come with it, and none of them really work in the context of what's widely accepted as top lvl pve content in mmos.

Hm? No, their system works. Or should I say 'my system works' and I just assume it's the same?

This is a problem that is pretty common and I think the solution is known, which is another reason for my constant ragging on games like BDO. (basically, HOW did you fail this, you could literally 'read a guide for it').

Tier 1 is instanced and drops materials for armor. In Ashes, this armor would grant probably elemental or status defenses. Lots of people need armor. Very similar or exact same armor. Economy works, repairs work because lots of people run it, interesting mechanics, and since it can just be sold and isn't likely to be hoarded, it doesn't matter as much if you can't arrange to clear the T1, you can gear up experienced players with just money.

Tier 2 is Open World, usually kills anyone without Armor from Tier1. There are 8-10x as many of these bosses as there are T1 Instanced bosses. They drop materials for WEAPONS and accessories, more targeted things that help specific Archetypes or builds. Players can target them and fight over them, but because they're spread out, this doesn't have to happen as much. Eventually a guild has all the 'Zavira's Fang' or whatever they need for their Spears, and either sell them or stop farming it so they can move on to farming something to make some other weapon.

Tier 3 is back to Instanced, funneled in again, DPS and Mechanic Check heavy, you have to have T2 Weapons to clear it, or really good understanding of mechanics, otherwise you're stuck with trickle-down from whatever guilds can clear it. Drops materials for better armor/upgrades to current armor, to allow you to pass the T4 Mitigation checks. Again, you COULD just buy this off someone who can clear it, but that doesn't mean anything, your defense is better, but if you want better offense you still have to contest the T4 in Open World.

Rinse and repeat until you're out of valid Mitigation Boosts.

Result:

15-20 Instanced content across the "Odd Number Tiers".
70-80 OW content across the 'Even Number Tiers' that you can't survive being near for too long without the gear from the Odd Number Tiers.

No direct wastes of time, you can just let the Odd Number Tiers drop MORE of the material when you're strong and quickly killing them. No downside to 'flooding the market with stronger armor' once people are past the general tier. If anything it's required, the more people HAVE the T3 Armor, the more 'T3 materials' the economy needs. Crafters rejoice. OW bosses work better because they're Mitigation Checks instead of DPS checks (which obv you can just throw more people at).

I really don't expect Intrepid to have any problems implementing something at least similar.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

There will be videos on everything in time.

And Noaani's whole personality on this forum is built around being the person who'd have the ability to create such videos, while your entire personality is of the person who'd just wait for them instead of PARTICIPATING IN COMPETITIVE PVE to be the first one to release such a video

You keep asking Noaani for video proof of boss complexity, but if, by any chance, Ashes has bosses that a difficult enough to wipe top lvl guilds several times over, you wouldn't be able to know about that complexity because you wouldn't be a part of such guilds, while Noaani would probably be the person who's gonna crack the boss. And because of that, competitively speaking, Noaani would be a better pver than you.

You don't know this, though. Mag has never indicated an inability to do what is being discussed, if anything, the opposite. That it would be easy enough that following a guide would work, and if there were no guide, that Mag would create it.

Mag also has an entire guild from New World to rely on. This sentiment is outright judging both their skill and their willingness to help (or even just willingness to share whatever monetization they can get from posting them) with no real basis, that I'm aware of?

It would make more sense to view this as an opportunity to make strong allies far in advance, (if you were likely to play on the same server).

While there is some merit to this, I dont think it really applies in this specific situation.

Mag is on record as saying there is no PvE competition - you just follow a guide. Anyone with this attitude and blindness to basic things like how a guide is made is not someone that has participated in top end content of any type, in any game. Not only that, but they likely have never really associated with anyone that has.

Not only have they not participated in top end content, they have never been "early" on any content. To take it one step further, not only have they not participated at the top end, nor been early on any content, but I would wager that Mag doesnt even know how far he even is from that edge, or how late he is on that content.

It is very much a case of Mag not even knowing how much there is that he doesnt know between where he is now, and where you need to be in order to be at that top end position.

Now, based on this, I am willing to make an assumption that any guild Mag has been in is hit functioning at the cutting edge of any game. To be fair though, this makes up 90%+ of all MMO gamers, so isnt a slight on Mag or his guild.

What I would then say though, is that a guild that has never been at the cutting edge of a game is not likely to be at that cutting edge in a new game. While not impossible, it is very improbable.

More shit talk, i can tell you're mad. I said it before I'll say it again pve isn't competitive.

At this point I believe the 'competitive' being referred to is the 'race to be the first to make the video for the monetization'.

Now, while you probably aren't interested in being the first to do it, you've already made the point that the first person to do it will probably make the most money from their channel, right?

First most likely won't do it as it will be a super guild most likely on the elitist side. Will also take time for people to create based on what the mechanics will be and how things work. Ie if mobs swap what mobs swap, how does it effect the raid and such and people explaining what to look out for on all details.

Average player experience by the time they start doing this content should have plenty of guides around.

Never said I wouldn't be interested in doing it first, to be a top tier guild you need to be doing more so you can win those ow PvP fights and sieges. As well as going back and helping lower level guildies get gear to help with their progression.

Right. I know that you're not talking about PvE World Firsts or things that elites do, but the average player, when you say that PvE isn't competitive. That's where the misunderstanding is. Elites talk about things in Elite terms, so there's competition there.

I believe you've made it pretty clear what your opinion on elites is, too? I might be wrong.

World first is such a tiny amount of content I don't consider that to be competitive as they are just doing pve and have more time on their hands than others. Just because something isn't competitive doesn't mean the players are skilled, smart, well versed and have a good amount of time on their hands. Maybe if you time gated it and everyone had to do the dungeons at the same time without pvp interference, it would be more competitive but that still is only because other players are involved and could could say a form of pvp in a sense there. Take out the player element and you just have a coop game.

Yeah, that's always been the part where you and Noaani don't 'meet in the middle'. Noaani is an Elite, talking about Elites, and you're the Everyman, standing up for the average player. You're probably never gonna agree, you're worlds apart in terms of what you're talking about.

I also assume that when you were talking about the guides you would make, you meant for stuff like Tier2 raids, that the average player encounters, and not like, Tier 6 Elitist stuff. I agree that there will definitely be lots of guides for Tier2 raids.

I think the most interesting part will be that the guides have to update as people get better at them and the underlying system starts adding more mechanics.

But you know the Elites aren't gonna be the ones telling people about those until they've reached Tier4 or something...

If I were to use my own experience it wouldn't really be a fair look at gameplay. When i played new world I had like 350 hours in a month. Its better to look at things as a whole then thinking of special content for .001% of people that won't even last very long as well just can't see that as competitive. It be like you going to some friends house and telling them to jump on a fighting game and you beat them and say you are the best fighting game player here and act very competitive over it.

We will see how things play out, it being open dungeons will make things interesting . I'm unsure if they are going to stick to that or pull back from it and have different numbers of people for bosses. There is too many questions at the moment and not enough answers with actual gameplay shown to see how things will be done.

Well, just bear in mind that this is the type of player and designer that Steven is.

There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel.[4] – Steven Sharif

This quote is literally him saying 'Sorry, some content will be Elites Only'.

But obviously it is also saying that there will be a lot of content for the people you are standing in for.

I agree there should be that kind of end game content so you have something to be challenged. But I'm talking about pve and being competitive, if we are talking about world first its such a tiny number and again can just be people with more time to throw at it and figure thing puzzles out and that amount that would be doing it is like i said .001 way below one percent, i prob should add more zeros but ya im going to bed now lol.

To me, this sounds like competition over PvE

It may not be competition everyone is involved in, but what is?

In my experience, there are usually 5 or so guilds attempting top end server firsts, and perhaps 5 or so servers in lost games where they are also competing for world firsts.

As such, there is scope for around 300 people per server to be actively involved in this PvE competition - but that is just for the top end PvE content. There is also competition in regards to solo and group content, harvesting, crafting, you name it.

While I appreciate that this isnt a competition you are involved in, the issue I have is with your false assertion that there is no competition here.

This is so false that even just the claim of it is astounding.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Hm? No, their system works. Or should I say 'my system works' and I just assume it's the same?

This is a problem that is pretty common and I think the solution is known, which is another reason for my constant ragging on games like BDO. (basically, HOW did you fail this, you could literally 'read a guide for it').

Tier 1 is instanced and drops materials for armor. In Ashes, this armor would grant probably elemental or status defenses. Lots of people need armor. Very similar or exact same armor. Economy works, repairs work because lots of people run it, interesting mechanics, and since it can just be sold and isn't likely to be hoarded, it doesn't matter as much if you can't arrange to clear the T1, you can gear up experienced players with just money.

Tier 2 is Open World, usually kills anyone without Armor from Tier1. There are 8-10x as many of these bosses as there are T1 Instanced bosses. They drop materials for WEAPONS and accessories, more targeted things that help specific Archetypes or builds. Players can target them and fight over them, but because they're spread out, this doesn't have to happen as much. Eventually a guild has all the 'Zavira's Fang' or whatever they need for their Spears, and either sell them or stop farming it so they can move on to farming something to make some other weapon.

Tier 3 is back to Instanced, funneled in again, DPS and Mechanic Check heavy, you have to have T2 Weapons to clear it, or really good understanding of mechanics, otherwise you're stuck with trickle-down from whatever guilds can clear it. Drops materials for better armor/upgrades to current armor, to allow you to pass the T4 Mitigation checks. Again, you COULD just buy this off someone who can clear it, but that doesn't mean anything, your defense is better, but if you want better offense you still have to contest the T4 in Open World.

Rinse and repeat until you're out of valid Mitigation Boosts.

Result:

15-20 Instanced content across the "Odd Number Tiers".
70-80 OW content across the 'Even Number Tiers' that you can't survive being near for too long without the gear from the Odd Number Tiers.

No direct wastes of time, you can just let the Odd Number Tiers drop MORE of the material when you're strong and quickly killing them. No downside to 'flooding the market with stronger armor' once people are past the general tier. If anything it's required, the more people HAVE the T3 Armor, the more 'T3 materials' the economy needs. Crafters rejoice. OW bosses work better because they're Mitigation Checks instead of DPS checks (which obv you can just throw more people at).

I really don't expect Intrepid to have any problems implementing something at least similar.

Would such a huge stagger of gear work on the server scale though?

Instanced content is not repeatable (at least rn) so you'd either have to give out waaaaay more gear per run than the raid required to clear the dungeon, or you'd make the dungeon easy enough for everyone to clear (which kinda defeats the point of instanced content being more complex).

But even if you give a ton of gear per Odd dungeon, how much is truly "a ton"? Cause theoretically only some % of guilds would be able to beat said dungeon, while, again theoretically, you'd want everyone on the server to get that gear, but w/o repeatability of instanced dungeons you'd pretty much prevent most of the casuals from ever having that gear, let alone fighting against Even bosses. And this would be an even bigger problem if Intrepid does manage to have 50k players on some servers.

I could maybe see "recipes as rewards" working out for this kind of system, but definitely not direct gear/mats.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Hm? No, their system works. Or should I say 'my system works' and I just assume it's the same?

This is a problem that is pretty common and I think the solution is known, which is another reason for my constant ragging on games like BDO. (basically, HOW did you fail this, you could literally 'read a guide for it').

Tier 1 is instanced and drops materials for armor. In Ashes, this armor would grant probably elemental or status defenses. Lots of people need armor. Very similar or exact same armor. Economy works, repairs work because lots of people run it, interesting mechanics, and since it can just be sold and isn't likely to be hoarded, it doesn't matter as much if you can't arrange to clear the T1, you can gear up experienced players with just money.

Tier 2 is Open World, usually kills anyone without Armor from Tier1. There are 8-10x as many of these bosses as there are T1 Instanced bosses. They drop materials for WEAPONS and accessories, more targeted things that help specific Archetypes or builds. Players can target them and fight over them, but because they're spread out, this doesn't have to happen as much. Eventually a guild has all the 'Zavira's Fang' or whatever they need for their Spears, and either sell them or stop farming it so they can move on to farming something to make some other weapon.

Tier 3 is back to Instanced, funneled in again, DPS and Mechanic Check heavy, you have to have T2 Weapons to clear it, or really good understanding of mechanics, otherwise you're stuck with trickle-down from whatever guilds can clear it. Drops materials for better armor/upgrades to current armor, to allow you to pass the T4 Mitigation checks. Again, you COULD just buy this off someone who can clear it, but that doesn't mean anything, your defense is better, but if you want better offense you still have to contest the T4 in Open World.

Rinse and repeat until you're out of valid Mitigation Boosts.

Result:

15-20 Instanced content across the "Odd Number Tiers".
70-80 OW content across the 'Even Number Tiers' that you can't survive being near for too long without the gear from the Odd Number Tiers.

No direct wastes of time, you can just let the Odd Number Tiers drop MORE of the material when you're strong and quickly killing them. No downside to 'flooding the market with stronger armor' once people are past the general tier. If anything it's required, the more people HAVE the T3 Armor, the more 'T3 materials' the economy needs. Crafters rejoice. OW bosses work better because they're Mitigation Checks instead of DPS checks (which obv you can just throw more people at).

I really don't expect Intrepid to have any problems implementing something at least similar.

Would such a huge stagger of gear work on the server scale though?

Instanced content is not repeatable (at least rn) so you'd either have to give out waaaaay more gear per run than the raid required to clear the dungeon, or you'd make the dungeon easy enough for everyone to clear (which kinda defeats the point of instanced content being more complex).

But even if you give a ton of gear per Odd dungeon, how much is truly "a ton"? Cause theoretically only some % of guilds would be able to beat said dungeon, while, again theoretically, you'd want everyone on the server to get that gear, but w/o repeatability of instanced dungeons you'd pretty much prevent most of the casuals from ever having that gear, let alone fighting against Even bosses. And this would be an even bigger problem if Intrepid does manage to have 50k players on some servers.

I could maybe see "recipes as rewards" working out for this kind of system, but definitely not direct gear/mats.

No, that's the point. It's not required that the T2 never drop T1 materials.

You start with 1000 players, they all want, idk... SerpentScale armor.

They all have access to either 'An instanced boss quest that rewards materials or the armor itself'. With that armor, they can now 'not die against some other thing'.

If it isn't repeatable (once cleared), then every time someone clears it, they have 'passed the filter'. You can also pass the filter via money, but that required EITHER 'someone higher than you on the ladder sold you their old gear' or 'someone equal to you on the ladder chose to stop climbing it'.

Also if Instanced content is not repeatable 'per character' people will just make Alts, I figure they meant moreso that you can't 'just re-enter whenever'. Weekly or 3-day time gate.

So 80% of players have the skill to clear The Serpent, and this results in say, 500 of them having good enough gear to not die while in combat with The Eagle. They don't even have to wear it all the time.

Anyways short version is that now you know you've got 500 players of whom many managed to deal with The Serpent, and you can throw them at The Factory (T3) with all its crazy mechanics. Filter restarts.

There's multiple reasons why I'd assume 'not repeatable' isn't as strict as that. What happens when a guild has cleared it and then a new member joins who 'needs to clear it', for example? Presumably they need to be able to take a bunch of members who have cleared it before. If that's what it means, then I'll be interested to see what they do, because the weird outcomes of 'yeah you need OW bosses to gear up Defense'...

Well, let's just say that I know another game that tried that...

Ludullu

Otr wrote: »

Post #1023
Who is winning this thread?

No one. We all lose.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Post #1023
Who is winning this thread?

No one. We all lose.

What are you talking about?

Clearly I won by making the 2^10th post.

Mega.

EDIT: Ah no, I missed it, OTR wasted the MegaPost on noting that we were at the PenultiMegaPost.

Shame.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

There's multiple reasons why I'd assume 'not repeatable' isn't as strict as that. What happens when a guild has cleared it and then a new member joins who 'needs to clear it', for example? Presumably they need to be able to take a bunch of members who have cleared it before.

Yeah, I came at it from the completely other side of "everything you need is available in the open world so instanced content is purely for the story's sake and not required at all if you don't care about the story".
If that's what it means, then I'll be interested to see what they do, because the weird outcomes of 'yeah you need OW bosses to gear up Defense'...

Well, let's just say that I know another game that tried that...[/quote]
I mean, I played a game like that for 12 years Not every piece of gear came from a boss, but bosses were definitely the fastest way of getting said gear, so if your guild was able to kill said boss - you, as a new player, would easily get what you need.

I understand that this is not the experience of the predominant mmo gamer population (with wow/ff14 being the largest mmos to date and pretty much giving out their best gear through instances), but it can be done in a good way w/o relying on instances. Especially considering that Intrepid could look at what was good in L2 and what was bad in BDO and find the golden middle between them.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

There's multiple reasons why I'd assume 'not repeatable' isn't as strict as that. What happens when a guild has cleared it and then a new member joins who 'needs to clear it', for example? Presumably they need to be able to take a bunch of members who have cleared it before.

Yeah, I came at it from the completely other side of "everything you need is available in the open world so instanced content is purely for the story's sake and not required at all if you don't care about the story".
If that's what it means, then I'll be interested to see what they do, because the weird outcomes of 'yeah you need OW bosses to gear up Defense'...

Well, let's just say that I know another game that tried that...
I mean, I played a game like that for 12 years Not every piece of gear came from a boss, but bosses were definitely the fastest way of getting said gear, so if your guild was able to kill said boss - you, as a new player, would easily get what you need.

I understand that this is not the experience of the predominant mmo gamer population (with wow/ff14 being the largest mmos to date and pretty much giving out their best gear through instances), but it can be done in a good way w/o relying on instances. Especially considering that Intrepid could look at what was good in L2 and what was bad in BDO and find the golden middle between them.

To be clear, I don't know why Ashes has any instanced Content.

I'd assume it was either 'to be challenging while not allowing players to just overwhelm the DPS check' (in which case I'd expect it to be at the top end') or 'just to give casual players some proper challenge' (in which case, the low end).

OW bosses NEED the Mitigation check though.

BDO's last update on Console (2 days ago) put a new drop that everyone is going to want for an event, on one of their World bosses (which for some reason share health across all 'servers').

Today I logged on to check the aforementioned Frame Data, saw the spawn message at the usual time, and saw the death message 2 minutes later (normally at least a 20m kill with the current game population on a weeknight).

I had to check if my clock was off (I hadn't checked the update). After that little doubletake it took me about 30 seconds to go 'FFS what did you all make Nouver drop THIS time?'

Surely enough...

Nouver FUNCTIONALLY has no Mitigation check. If you are good enough you can fight it in gathering gear (I sometimes forget to switch mine out). And so, DPS reigns and it can just be deleted. This outcome is exponential.

Don't make your OW bosses DPS checks, kids, not even in competitive owPvP games (this does not apply to BDO, World Bosses turn the entire server into a no-conflict zone or something, temporarily).

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

To be clear, I don't know why Ashes has any instanced Content.

My assumption so far has been "just for story's sake". It's way easier to tell any kind of story and keep it engaging, if you can present that story in an undisturbed and clean way.

Having some boss talk about lore at you while there's hundreds of people running around yelling shit in chat (or god forbid VC) would take you right out the immersion. Same would go for just having any kind of bosses related to the story. You'd have to either put the boss on a 1 min timer to let anyone clear the story when they get to it, or make it unkillable in some way so that people wouldn't get stuck on this boss during their story quest.

Aeskill

I understand the concerns people have about action combat in MMORPGs - however, I also believe that Intrepid may be able to create something new and exciting by mixing tab target and action combat. Maybe this mix is exactly what the genre needed, the natural evolution of both systems if you will.

In my opinion, the two playstyles should be so closely linked in AoC that you really need to actively use both (!). That would be great!

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I agree there should be that kind of end game content so you have something to be challenged. But I'm talking about pve and being competitive, if we are talking about world first its such a tiny number and again can just be people with more time to throw at it and figure thing puzzles out and that amount that would be doing it is like i said .001 way below one percent, i prob should add more zeros but ya im going to bed now lol.

At the very least it's 0.4% because every server will have at least one guild that will be doing this. I could recount that to fit it better with the alleged 50k per server number, but I doubt this will be the reality of the game.

it is not .4% You are talking about killing a boss first between the people on the server and the amount of content present as well as future guild that will aim towards the top a well. Again nits not competitive it is who has the bigger guild and more time on their hands to not work.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

There will be videos on everything in time.

And Noaani's whole personality on this forum is built around being the person who'd have the ability to create such videos, while your entire personality is of the person who'd just wait for them instead of PARTICIPATING IN COMPETITIVE PVE to be the first one to release such a video

You keep asking Noaani for video proof of boss complexity, but if, by any chance, Ashes has bosses that a difficult enough to wipe top lvl guilds several times over, you wouldn't be able to know about that complexity because you wouldn't be a part of such guilds, while Noaani would probably be the person who's gonna crack the boss. And because of that, competitively speaking, Noaani would be a better pver than you.

You don't know this, though. Mag has never indicated an inability to do what is being discussed, if anything, the opposite. That it would be easy enough that following a guide would work, and if there were no guide, that Mag would create it.

Mag also has an entire guild from New World to rely on. This sentiment is outright judging both their skill and their willingness to help (or even just willingness to share whatever monetization they can get from posting them) with no real basis, that I'm aware of?

It would make more sense to view this as an opportunity to make strong allies far in advance, (if you were likely to play on the same server).

While there is some merit to this, I dont think it really applies in this specific situation.

Mag is on record as saying there is no PvE competition - you just follow a guide. Anyone with this attitude and blindness to basic things like how a guide is made is not someone that has participated in top end content of any type, in any game. Not only that, but they likely have never really associated with anyone that has.

Not only have they not participated in top end content, they have never been "early" on any content. To take it one step further, not only have they not participated at the top end, nor been early on any content, but I would wager that Mag doesnt even know how far he even is from that edge, or how late he is on that content.

It is very much a case of Mag not even knowing how much there is that he doesnt know between where he is now, and where you need to be in order to be at that top end position.

Now, based on this, I am willing to make an assumption that any guild Mag has been in is hit functioning at the cutting edge of any game. To be fair though, this makes up 90%+ of all MMO gamers, so isnt a slight on Mag or his guild.

What I would then say though, is that a guild that has never been at the cutting edge of a game is not likely to be at that cutting edge in a new game. While not impossible, it is very improbable.

More shit talk, i can tell you're mad. I said it before I'll say it again pve isn't competitive.

At this point I believe the 'competitive' being referred to is the 'race to be the first to make the video for the monetization'.

Now, while you probably aren't interested in being the first to do it, you've already made the point that the first person to do it will probably make the most money from their channel, right?

First most likely won't do it as it will be a super guild most likely on the elitist side. Will also take time for people to create based on what the mechanics will be and how things work. Ie if mobs swap what mobs swap, how does it effect the raid and such and people explaining what to look out for on all details.

Average player experience by the time they start doing this content should have plenty of guides around.

Never said I wouldn't be interested in doing it first, to be a top tier guild you need to be doing more so you can win those ow PvP fights and sieges. As well as going back and helping lower level guildies get gear to help with their progression.

Right. I know that you're not talking about PvE World Firsts or things that elites do, but the average player, when you say that PvE isn't competitive. That's where the misunderstanding is. Elites talk about things in Elite terms, so there's competition there.

I believe you've made it pretty clear what your opinion on elites is, too? I might be wrong.

World first is such a tiny amount of content I don't consider that to be competitive as they are just doing pve and have more time on their hands than others. Just because something isn't competitive doesn't mean the players are skilled, smart, well versed and have a good amount of time on their hands. Maybe if you time gated it and everyone had to do the dungeons at the same time without pvp interference, it would be more competitive but that still is only because other players are involved and could could say a form of pvp in a sense there. Take out the player element and you just have a coop game.

Yeah, that's always been the part where you and Noaani don't 'meet in the middle'. Noaani is an Elite, talking about Elites, and you're the Everyman, standing up for the average player. You're probably never gonna agree, you're worlds apart in terms of what you're talking about.

I also assume that when you were talking about the guides you would make, you meant for stuff like Tier2 raids, that the average player encounters, and not like, Tier 6 Elitist stuff. I agree that there will definitely be lots of guides for Tier2 raids.

I think the most interesting part will be that the guides have to update as people get better at them and the underlying system starts adding more mechanics.

But you know the Elites aren't gonna be the ones telling people about those until they've reached Tier4 or something...

If I were to use my own experience it wouldn't really be a fair look at gameplay. When i played new world I had like 350 hours in a month. Its better to look at things as a whole then thinking of special content for .001% of people that won't even last very long as well just can't see that as competitive. It be like you going to some friends house and telling them to jump on a fighting game and you beat them and say you are the best fighting game player here and act very competitive over it.

We will see how things play out, it being open dungeons will make things interesting . I'm unsure if they are going to stick to that or pull back from it and have different numbers of people for bosses. There is too many questions at the moment and not enough answers with actual gameplay shown to see how things will be done.

Well, just bear in mind that this is the type of player and designer that Steven is.

There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel.[4] – Steven Sharif

This quote is literally him saying 'Sorry, some content will be Elites Only'.

But obviously it is also saying that there will be a lot of content for the people you are standing in for.

I agree there should be that kind of end game content so you have something to be challenged. But I'm talking about pve and being competitive, if we are talking about world first its such a tiny number and again can just be people with more time to throw at it and figure thing puzzles out and that amount that would be doing it is like i said .001 way below one percent, i prob should add more zeros but ya im going to bed now lol.

To me, this sounds like competition over PvE

It may not be competition everyone is involved in, but what is?

In my experience, there are usually 5 or so guilds attempting top end server firsts, and perhaps 5 or so servers in lost games where they are also competing for world firsts.

As such, there is scope for around 300 people per server to be actively involved in this PvE competition - but that is just for the top end PvE content. There is also competition in regards to solo and group content, harvesting, crafting, you name it.

While I appreciate that this isnt a competition you are involved in, the issue I have is with your false assertion that there is no competition here.

This is so false that even just the claim of it is astounding.

PvE is not competitive wearing a fake badge saying you did something first doesn't mean anything. Fighting players is competitive, just because you have a mind set to make something competitive doesn't mean it is you simply are, and simply have more time on your hands. Same way if you walk up to a lowbie in PvP and one shot them and camp them at spawn that isn't competitive either. Not going to have a whole argument on all the aspects that make PvE not competitive, it is not a normal experience for that to be so.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Hm? No, their system works. Or should I say 'my system works' and I just assume it's the same?

This is a problem that is pretty common and I think the solution is known, which is another reason for my constant ragging on games like BDO. (basically, HOW did you fail this, you could literally 'read a guide for it').

Tier 1 is instanced and drops materials for armor. In Ashes, this armor would grant probably elemental or status defenses. Lots of people need armor. Very similar or exact same armor. Economy works, repairs work because lots of people run it, interesting mechanics, and since it can just be sold and isn't likely to be hoarded, it doesn't matter as much if you can't arrange to clear the T1, you can gear up experienced players with just money.

Tier 2 is Open World, usually kills anyone without Armor from Tier1. There are 8-10x as many of these bosses as there are T1 Instanced bosses. They drop materials for WEAPONS and accessories, more targeted things that help specific Archetypes or builds. Players can target them and fight over them, but because they're spread out, this doesn't have to happen as much. Eventually a guild has all the 'Zavira's Fang' or whatever they need for their Spears, and either sell them or stop farming it so they can move on to farming something to make some other weapon.

Tier 3 is back to Instanced, funneled in again, DPS and Mechanic Check heavy, you have to have T2 Weapons to clear it, or really good understanding of mechanics, otherwise you're stuck with trickle-down from whatever guilds can clear it. Drops materials for better armor/upgrades to current armor, to allow you to pass the T4 Mitigation checks. Again, you COULD just buy this off someone who can clear it, but that doesn't mean anything, your defense is better, but if you want better offense you still have to contest the T4 in Open World.

Rinse and repeat until you're out of valid Mitigation Boosts.

Result:

15-20 Instanced content across the "Odd Number Tiers".
70-80 OW content across the 'Even Number Tiers' that you can't survive being near for too long without the gear from the Odd Number Tiers.

No direct wastes of time, you can just let the Odd Number Tiers drop MORE of the material when you're strong and quickly killing them. No downside to 'flooding the market with stronger armor' once people are past the general tier. If anything it's required, the more people HAVE the T3 Armor, the more 'T3 materials' the economy needs. Crafters rejoice. OW bosses work better because they're Mitigation Checks instead of DPS checks (which obv you can just throw more people at).

I really don't expect Intrepid to have any problems implementing something at least similar.

Would such a huge stagger of gear work on the server scale though?

Instanced content is not repeatable (at least rn) so you'd either have to give out waaaaay more gear per run than the raid required to clear the dungeon, or you'd make the dungeon easy enough for everyone to clear (which kinda defeats the point of instanced content being more complex).

But even if you give a ton of gear per Odd dungeon, how much is truly "a ton"? Cause theoretically only some % of guilds would be able to beat said dungeon, while, again theoretically, you'd want everyone on the server to get that gear, but w/o repeatability of instanced dungeons you'd pretty much prevent most of the casuals from ever having that gear, let alone fighting against Even bosses. And this would be an even bigger problem if Intrepid does manage to have 50k players on some servers.

I could maybe see "recipes as rewards" working out for this kind of system, but definitely not direct gear/mats.

I think you guys need to keep your copium in check and not over think expectations.

1. How much of story will take of instanced content in the game
2. Remember the world size amount of nodes and spawns of enemies and the work required to make everything. If you do things unique and don't want things feeling generic it is an extreme amount of work with this world size.

Dygz

Yeah... maybe you should take your own advice.
LMAO

Mag7spy

Dygz wrote: »

Yeah... maybe you should take your own advice.
LMAO

I think you should take your own advice LMFAO.

ItsmeToki

Mag7spy wrote: »

Action combat should have an advantage its already stated that tab will have less accuracy. Everyone is well aware tab is easy mode and you don't have to deal with looking at your enemy or aiming anything. Though balance and design they will make it work I'm sure. The design would fail if there was no point in using action moves and a bunch of skills will just be never used.

They could easily have stats to help balance things out further, but I'm unsure if they will do separate pvp and pve stats. I feel soft targeting is the best thing they can do for range action combat and make it so you need to face your target even in tab so you have a slower back peddle then running full speed and spamming skills with 0 efforts.

How do u think tabcombat works...? If you look at your actionbars instead of your enemie you are already dead. By your writing I understand that you have not a single idea about how fast paste tab target gameplay is. You have to keep track of every buff, debuff, animation and cooldowns of all participants at all times.
What kind of tab games did you play in the past...?
Thats exactly why action combat can never have an advantage over tab combat. Because everybody that has ever played a single competitive tab pvp match knows about the skill and the speed that is needed and only a fool would say, that adding an aiming funtion to all attacks will not sets the skillbar way to high...

Mag7spy

ItsmeToki wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Action combat should have an advantage its already stated that tab will have less accuracy. Everyone is well aware tab is easy mode and you don't have to deal with looking at your enemy or aiming anything. Though balance and design they will make it work I'm sure. The design would fail if there was no point in using action moves and a bunch of skills will just be never used.

They could easily have stats to help balance things out further, but I'm unsure if they will do separate pvp and pve stats. I feel soft targeting is the best thing they can do for range action combat and make it so you need to face your target even in tab so you have a slower back peddle then running full speed and spamming skills with 0 efforts.

How do u think tabcombat works...? If you look at your actionbars instead of your enemie you are already dead. By your writing I understand that you have not a single idea about how fast paste tab target gameplay is. You have to keep track of every buff, debuff, animation and cooldowns of all particpants at all times.
What kind of tab games did you play in the past...?
Thats exactly why action combat can never have an advantage over tab combat. Because everybody that has ever played a single compatitive tab pvp match knows about the skill and the speed that is needed and only a fool would say, that adding an aiming funtion to all attacks will not sets the skillbar way to high...

Tell me you haven't played action combat without playing action combat..... I've already given my list, I've been playing mmorpgs since EQ. You are mixing up fast pace with easier. Animations in tab target lmfao you que your skills you don't worry about animations they don't effect if you are hit or not.

Debuffs, buffs and cooldowns exist in all games especially the mmorpg genre, you saying this is tab is telling me you do NOT playing action based mmorpgs and refuse to be open about trying and understanding different kinds of mmorpg. You are in a bubble.

Speed in tab is overexaggerating its not fast, it is slower so people have more time to focus on min maxing their debuffs and having time to look at these other elements. While if you are playing action you have to know it off feel and skill use as your focus is literarily tracking, positioning, countering their movement, dodging, etc.

Forever you will bring up elements in tab target mmorpgs as a point and it will just look silly since those exist not just in action combat but a ton of other games as well. I literately could bring up outriders having all of those as well lmao

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Action combat should have an advantage its already stated that tab will have less accuracy. Everyone is well aware tab is easy mode and you don't have to deal with looking at your enemy or aiming anything. Though balance and design they will make it work I'm sure. The design would fail if there was no point in using action moves and a bunch of skills will just be never used.

I'm busier today and don't have time to discuss things with you, so if you make claims like this, there will probably be more responses, and then you will get tired for no benefit.

Theko

Tab Targeting comes from a time with high pings, bad collision and bad hit boxes ...

Action combat is way more advanced and needs more skill ... if you really think its skillfull to rotate through your abilitys im sorry but it isnt.

Mostly it ends in pushing your buttons in the same pattern everytime ... 8,4,6,2,1 ... 8,4,6,2,1 ...

And that comes from someone who played a freaking lot of MMO's since 1998.

i mean tab targeting pvp mostly works without looking at the screen ...

When WoW came out it was okay ... but in todays time it would be boring af.

Dygz

Tab target is not synonymous with rotations.
Just as max level Adventurer is not synonymous with endgame.

Dygz

Only Mag7Spy has played action combat.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

PvE is not competitive wearing a fake badge saying you did something first doesn't mean anything.

I mean, isnt everything in an MMO just a fake badge?

That said, how about we look back at EQ2.

The games open world raid encounters were labeled - by the developers - as 'contested raid encounters'. The first raid to arrive with enough players and successfully kill said encounter gets the rewards.

Since these encounters had actual competition over them (there would often be 5+ guilds attempting them), and since literally every item they dropped was best in slot, and ALSO since they were added to the game in order to be a form of competition, you cant say there is no PvE competition in MMO's.

Unless you want to say the developer of that game - a number of whom are making this game - dont know English well enough to properly label their own content.

However, I doubt you are literarily diluted enough to make that claim of anyone else.

Then you could look at games that have dungeon leaderboards.

Again, you are welcome to say you haven't participated in competitive PvE. No one would doubt this. What you cant really say though, is that there is no competitive PvE. Not without being outright, objectively wrong.

PenguinPaladin

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

PvE is not competitive wearing a fake badge saying you did something first doesn't mean anything.

I mean, isnt everything in an MMO just a fake badge?

That said, how about we look back at EQ2.

The games open world raid encounters were labeled - by the developers - as 'contested raid encounters'. The first raid to arrive with enough players and successfully kill said encounter gets the rewards.

Since these encounters had actual competition over them (there would often be 5+ guilds attempting them), and since literally every item they dropped was best in slot, and ALSO since they were added to the game in order to be a form of competition, you cant say there is no PvE competition in MMO's.

Unless you want to say the developer of that game - a number of whom are making this game - dont know English well enough to properly label their own content.

However, I doubt you are literarily diluted enough to make that claim of anyone else.

Then you could look at games that have dungeon leaderboards.

Again, you are welcome to say you haven't participated in competitive PvE. No one would doubt this. What you cant really say though, is that there is no competitive PvE. Not without being outright, objectively wrong.

He likes his fake badge saying hes killed alot, when he could just be ganking lowbies...... but i mean. At least thats competitive right? Unlike pve, which is just busy work. Obviously.... i hope the sarcasm comes through.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

PvE is not competitive wearing a fake badge saying you did something first doesn't mean anything.

I mean, isnt everything in an MMO just a fake badge?

That said, how about we look back at EQ2.

The games open world raid encounters were labeled - by the developers - as 'contested raid encounters'. The first raid to arrive with enough players and successfully kill said encounter gets the rewards.

Since these encounters had actual competition over them (there would often be 5+ guilds attempting them), and since literally every item they dropped was best in slot, and ALSO since they were added to the game in order to be a form of competition, you cant say there is no PvE competition in MMO's.

Unless you want to say the developer of that game - a number of whom are making this game - dont know English well enough to properly label their own content.

However, I doubt you are literarily diluted enough to make that claim of anyone else.

Then you could look at games that have dungeon leaderboards.

Again, you are welcome to say you haven't participated in competitive PvE. No one would doubt this. What you cant really say though, is that there is no competitive PvE. Not without being outright, objectively wrong.

PvE is not competitive it doesn't matter how you try to swing it in your mind or trying to create some scenario where it is to you, manipulate the conversation in attempt to make me say something about other people, you are fighting AI.

Warth

Action combat isn't synonymous with twitchy, spammy, animation cancelling combat either.
Combat is on a spectrum from spasm inducing spamfests to 1-ability every 3 second snoozefests.

There is many aspects (targeting, pacing, active vs. passive counterplay + many more) to combat that need to be compared individually rather than going with the above mentioned tropes, which someone (in my opinion) would only use to argue in bad faith / undermine the opinion of the discussion partner through overexaggerations.

PenguinPaladin

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

PvE is not competitive wearing a fake badge saying you did something first doesn't mean anything.

I mean, isnt everything in an MMO just a fake badge?

That said, how about we look back at EQ2.

The games open world raid encounters were labeled - by the developers - as 'contested raid encounters'. The first raid to arrive with enough players and successfully kill said encounter gets the rewards.

Since these encounters had actual competition over them (there would often be 5+ guilds attempting them), and since literally every item they dropped was best in slot, and ALSO since they were added to the game in order to be a form of competition, you cant say there is no PvE competition in MMO's.

Unless you want to say the developer of that game - a number of whom are making this game - dont know English well enough to properly label their own content.

However, I doubt you are literarily diluted enough to make that claim of anyone else.

Then you could look at games that have dungeon leaderboards.

Again, you are welcome to say you haven't participated in competitive PvE. No one would doubt this. What you cant really say though, is that there is no competitive PvE. Not without being outright, objectively wrong.

PvE is not competitive it doesn't matter how you try to swing it in your mind or trying to create some scenario where it is to you, manipulate the conversation in attempt to make me say something about other people, you are fighting AI.

With this mindset, you dont need leaderboards, or rankings in pvp either. Because the pvp itself is the competition. No point in recording stats as recording stats is obviously not competitive.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

PvE is not competitive it doesn't matter how you try to swing it in your mind or trying to create some scenario where it is to you, manipulate the conversation in attempt to make me say something about other people, you are fighting AI.

Fighting the AI does not preclude competition.

Look back at old school arcade machines where you would put your initials in if you got a high score. There was a lot of competition there.

Or you could look at what is easily the most competitive aspect of gaming today - speedrunning.

At this point, the number of examples of player vs AI I have given you where there is competition between players, you literally have to be willfully not wanting to understand in order to, well, not understand.

Warth

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

PvE is not competitive it doesn't matter how you try to swing it in your mind or trying to create some scenario where it is to you, manipulate the conversation in attempt to make me say something about other people, you are fighting AI.

Fighting the AI does not preclude competition.

Look back at old school arcade machines where you would put your initials in if you got a high score. There was a lot of competition there.

Or you could look at what is easily the most competitive aspect of gaming today - speedrunning.

At this point, the number of examples of player vs AI I have given you where there is competition between players, you literally have to be willfully not wanting to understand in order to, well, not understand.

Nonono. Everything that isn't pitting people against each other isn't competitive. Even in sports...
Don't you know that racing, climbing, swimming, skiing... aren't competitive sports? Only sports like Tennis, Boxing, Chess etc. can be competitive
The billions of people following other sports are simply wrong and would be better off looking for real competition @Noaani
/s

Noaani

Warth wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

PvE is not competitive it doesn't matter how you try to swing it in your mind or trying to create some scenario where it is to you, manipulate the conversation in attempt to make me say something about other people, you are fighting AI.

Fighting the AI does not preclude competition.

Look back at old school arcade machines where you would put your initials in if you got a high score. There was a lot of competition there.

Or you could look at what is easily the most competitive aspect of gaming today - speedrunning.

At this point, the number of examples of player vs AI I have given you where there is competition between players, you literally have to be willfully not wanting to understand in order to, well, not understand.

Nonono. Everything that isn't pitting people against each other isn't competitive. Even in sports...
Don't you know that racing, climbing, swimming, skiing... aren't competitive sports? Only sports like Tennis, Boxing, Chess etc. can be competitive
The billions of people following other sports are simply wrong and would be better off looking for real competition Noaani
/s

Oh yeah, swimming is, after all, just player vs water.