I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

JustVine

Mag7spy wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Premise 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor_(gymnastics) this sport is competitive. Even if players do not perform at the same time. You measure scores at the end to determine the winner.

Premise 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay_race this sport is also competitive. Even if it is a team sport, everyone's performances effect the end outcome. A winning team is declared by whatever team collectively gets the best time.

Premise 3: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedrun Speedrunning is just an electronic version of a race.

Premise 4: You do not need to race someone at the same time for the time to be measured against one another and a winner to be declared if Premise 1 is true. So if you accept Premise 3 speedruns can be seen as a race between one or multiple people at any given time.

Premise 5: mmo raids can be speedrun.

Premise 6: mmo raids can be like relay races in that how well one person performs effects the teams completion time

Conclusion: mmo raids can be competitive.

Tell me which premises you disagree with please.

As far as gymnastics goes people are competing directly against each other, same with racing using their own body in something that is undetermined.

So ill get to the important part again with 5+.

First off there are guides so you know exactly what to do. There is a challenge at hand but you are simply following what people have done before you already copying some elements or trying some new elements to do it a little bit faster. What you are fighting is also AI and not a player so there is no direct relation player vrs player. (I'm assuming you are going to try to rebuttal with racing but its not the same thing as racers aren't solving a puzzle and that puzzle in a mmorpg has already been solved in terms speedruns.).

Players simply doing what they know they need to do in how a guide explains isn't competitive as you are fighting AI and not a human. You know the challenge and are simply trying some new things in order to get a slightly faster time. You aren't trying to overcome the challenge that is the mind / body / reaction of another you are simply fighting some AI with a set puzzles you need to overcome as well with a good dose of RNG.

Ok. You disagree that obstacle course races aren't real races because they are puzzles to you.... I think we have in fact diagnosed where your real disagreement is then. Thank you.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_climbing

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

I wasn't striving to win anything, nor could I win/gain anything.

It wasn't an event or contest, because there was no reward for the actions we did.

And my target wasn't a competitor because there was no event to compete in.

So none of the realities of the situation fit the definition of a competition. But as I've said before, you could pose this as a psychological question of "whether I wanted to dominate my target", but that was never a conscious thought in my mind. You could say I thought that on a subconscious level, but at that point it'd become a philosophical question of "how does one define competition for themselves? is it a conscious thought or a state of being, no matter the attitude of the people participating in said "competition".

But under the dictionary definition of competition - it was not one.

I don't know how you post that and ignore the words in the definition.

"the activity or condition of competing:"

You are striving to beat them in a fight and go deeper tot he grind spot you want. If you are not striving to win the fight or care about it you would be indifferent and wouldn't have went to pvp with them to begin with. If you were not striving to win anything which means the battle you wouldn't have tried to do anything and let them kill you. It doesn't matter if you don't care if you win or lose your action to try to win is enough hence it is competitive.

You don't need to define competition for yourself you just go by the definition...After the battle you can judge their level of skill be it a competitive fight or not.

Mag7spy

JustVine wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Premise 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor_(gymnastics) this sport is competitive. Even if players do not perform at the same time. You measure scores at the end to determine the winner.

Premise 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay_race this sport is also competitive. Even if it is a team sport, everyone's performances effect the end outcome. A winning team is declared by whatever team collectively gets the best time.

Premise 3: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedrun Speedrunning is just an electronic version of a race.

Premise 4: You do not need to race someone at the same time for the time to be measured against one another and a winner to be declared if Premise 1 is true. So if you accept Premise 3 speedruns can be seen as a race between one or multiple people at any given time.

Premise 5: mmo raids can be speedrun.

Premise 6: mmo raids can be like relay races in that how well one person performs effects the teams completion time

Conclusion: mmo raids can be competitive.

Tell me which premises you disagree with please.

As far as gymnastics goes people are competing directly against each other, same with racing using their own body in something that is undetermined.

So ill get to the important part again with 5+.

First off there are guides so you know exactly what to do. There is a challenge at hand but you are simply following what people have done before you already copying some elements or trying some new elements to do it a little bit faster. What you are fighting is also AI and not a player so there is no direct relation player vrs player. (I'm assuming you are going to try to rebuttal with racing but its not the same thing as racers aren't solving a puzzle and that puzzle in a mmorpg has already been solved in terms speedruns.).

Players simply doing what they know they need to do in how a guide explains isn't competitive as you are fighting AI and not a human. You know the challenge and are simply trying some new things in order to get a slightly faster time. You aren't trying to overcome the challenge that is the mind / body / reaction of another you are simply fighting some AI with a set puzzles you need to overcome as well with a good dose of RNG.

Ok. You disagree that obstacle course races aren't real races because they are puzzles to you.... I think we have in fact diagnosed where your real disagreement is then. Thank you.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_climbing

Real life races are real life races, unsure what you are talking about on that point

Rock climbing is a physically and mentally demanding sport, one that often tests a climber's strength, endurance, agility and balance along with mental control. Knowledge of proper climbing techniques and the use of specialized climbing equipment is crucial for the safe completion of routes.

Unsure what puzzles have to do with rock climbing.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

I wasn't striving to win anything, nor could I win/gain anything.

It wasn't an event or contest, because there was no reward for the actions we did.

And my target wasn't a competitor because there was no event to compete in.

So none of the realities of the situation fit the definition of a competition. But as I've said before, you could pose this as a psychological question of "whether I wanted to dominate my target", but that was never a conscious thought in my mind. You could say I thought that on a subconscious level, but at that point it'd become a philosophical question of "how does one define competition for themselves? is it a conscious thought or a state of being, no matter the attitude of the people participating in said "competition".

But under the dictionary definition of competition - it was not one.

I don't know how you post that and ignore the words in the definition.

"the activity or condition of competing:"

You are striving to beat them in a fight and go deeper tot he grind spot you want. If you are not striving to win the fight or care about it you would be indifferent and wouldn't have went to pvp with them to begin with. If you were not striving to win anything which means the battle you wouldn't have tried to do anything and let them kill you. It doesn't matter if you don't care if you win or lose your action to try to win is enough hence it is competitive.

You don't need to define competition for yourself you just go by the definition...After the battle you can judge their level of skill be it a competitive fight or not.

See, this is the thing you, as a non-elitist, can't grasp.

I can fight without trying to do the thing required to win the fight.

I can fight without caring whether I win or lose the fight. I can and do attack people without any interest in winning based on the game's system, sometimes it's just to gather data, sometimes it's just to test something, sometimes it's just a whim, sometimes I just feel like 'being my character' and that is a thing that happens whether I win or lose.

Now, granted, at least in some fighting games this either baffles my opponents or terrifies them, but the point is that I can just want to fight and that is a completely separate feeling and wish from wanting to or trying to WIN.

This is actually annoyingly common for me. If I fight an opponent and I overpower them in neutral and they start to back off and switch to 'bait and punish' tactics, I just stand there and stop blocking. I'll still attack them if I feel like it will lead to me 'getting to do the thing I like doing', but otherwise, they can have the match.

Is it still competitive if I get bored of winning and stop winning?

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Premise 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor_(gymnastics) this sport is competitive. Even if players do not perform at the same time. You measure scores at the end to determine the winner.

Premise 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay_race this sport is also competitive. Even if it is a team sport, everyone's performances effect the end outcome. A winning team is declared by whatever team collectively gets the best time.

Premise 3: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedrun Speedrunning is just an electronic version of a race.

Premise 4: You do not need to race someone at the same time for the time to be measured against one another and a winner to be declared if Premise 1 is true. So if you accept Premise 3 speedruns can be seen as a race between one or multiple people at any given time.

Premise 5: mmo raids can be speedrun.

Premise 6: mmo raids can be like relay races in that how well one person performs effects the teams completion time

Conclusion: mmo raids can be competitive.

Tell me which premises you disagree with please.

As far as gymnastics goes people are competing directly against each other, same with racing using their own body in something that is undetermined.

So ill get to the important part again with 5+.

First off there are guides so you know exactly what to do. There is a challenge at hand but you are simply following what people have done before you already copying some elements or trying some new elements to do it a little bit faster. What you are fighting is also AI and not a player so there is no direct relation player vrs player. (I'm assuming you are going to try to rebuttal with racing but its not the same thing as racers aren't solving a puzzle and that puzzle in a mmorpg has already been solved in terms speedruns.).

Players simply doing what they know they need to do in how a guide explains isn't competitive as you are fighting AI and not a human. You know the challenge and are simply trying some new things in order to get a slightly faster time. You aren't trying to overcome the challenge that is the mind / body / reaction of another you are simply fighting some AI with a set puzzles you need to overcome as well with a good dose of RNG.

I think people have tried to tell you multiple times that this is a logical error.

I understand that for you, if you are talking about Average Content, that doesn't cause the majority of Average players to just wipe, then there will always be a guide because a Noaani made one, even if it was just to get some guild members up to speed.

No one is talking about that Average content.

So are you trying to argue less than a handful of pieces of PvE content is competitive?

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

You don't need to define competition for yourself you just go by the definition...

What dictionary have you taken your understanding of the word "competitive" from?

Or have you just made up your own definition?

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Premise 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor_(gymnastics) this sport is competitive. Even if players do not perform at the same time. You measure scores at the end to determine the winner.

Premise 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay_race this sport is also competitive. Even if it is a team sport, everyone's performances effect the end outcome. A winning team is declared by whatever team collectively gets the best time.

Premise 3: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedrun Speedrunning is just an electronic version of a race.

Premise 4: You do not need to race someone at the same time for the time to be measured against one another and a winner to be declared if Premise 1 is true. So if you accept Premise 3 speedruns can be seen as a race between one or multiple people at any given time.

Premise 5: mmo raids can be speedrun.

Premise 6: mmo raids can be like relay races in that how well one person performs effects the teams completion time

Conclusion: mmo raids can be competitive.

Tell me which premises you disagree with please.

As far as gymnastics goes people are competing directly against each other, same with racing using their own body in something that is undetermined.

So ill get to the important part again with 5+.

First off there are guides so you know exactly what to do. There is a challenge at hand but you are simply following what people have done before you already copying some elements or trying some new elements to do it a little bit faster. What you are fighting is also AI and not a player so there is no direct relation player vrs player. (I'm assuming you are going to try to rebuttal with racing but its not the same thing as racers aren't solving a puzzle and that puzzle in a mmorpg has already been solved in terms speedruns.).

Players simply doing what they know they need to do in how a guide explains isn't competitive as you are fighting AI and not a human. You know the challenge and are simply trying some new things in order to get a slightly faster time. You aren't trying to overcome the challenge that is the mind / body / reaction of another you are simply fighting some AI with a set puzzles you need to overcome as well with a good dose of RNG.

I think people have tried to tell you multiple times that this is a logical error.

I understand that for you, if you are talking about Average Content, that doesn't cause the majority of Average players to just wipe, then there will always be a guide because a Noaani made one, even if it was just to get some guild members up to speed.

No one is talking about that Average content.

So are you trying to argue less than a handful of pieces of PvE content is competitive?

Absolutely!

Now you've got it!

And that handful is the handful we've been disagreeing on for the last 30-odd pages.

It was just our (can I say that? I would be speaking for others) expectation that you were talking about the same thing. I had to refactor everything based on your behavioural cues to even realize 'oh, wait... no, this isn't the same basis'.

I'll clarify using the other thing since it will probably hit the right nerve.

When you said you were Top 10 in Soul Calibur, no one noticed that you meant 'I managed to be Top 10 for a little while that one time'.

Because we're elitists. We thought you were saying "I am consistently able to be Top 10 in this game', not 'Oh I was pretty good for a bit, it even got me on a leaderboard for like a day'.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

I wasn't striving to win anything, nor could I win/gain anything.

It wasn't an event or contest, because there was no reward for the actions we did.

And my target wasn't a competitor because there was no event to compete in.

So none of the realities of the situation fit the definition of a competition. But as I've said before, you could pose this as a psychological question of "whether I wanted to dominate my target", but that was never a conscious thought in my mind. You could say I thought that on a subconscious level, but at that point it'd become a philosophical question of "how does one define competition for themselves? is it a conscious thought or a state of being, no matter the attitude of the people participating in said "competition".

But under the dictionary definition of competition - it was not one.

I don't know how you post that and ignore the words in the definition.

"the activity or condition of competing:"

You are striving to beat them in a fight and go deeper tot he grind spot you want. If you are not striving to win the fight or care about it you would be indifferent and wouldn't have went to pvp with them to begin with. If you were not striving to win anything which means the battle you wouldn't have tried to do anything and let them kill you. It doesn't matter if you don't care if you win or lose your action to try to win is enough hence it is competitive.

You don't need to define competition for yourself you just go by the definition...After the battle you can judge their level of skill be it a competitive fight or not.

See, this is the thing you, as a non-elitist, can't grasp.

I can fight without trying to do the thing required to win the fight.

I can fight without caring whether I win or lose the fight. I can and do attack people without any interest in winning based on the game's system, sometimes it's just to gather data, sometimes it's just to test something, sometimes it's just a whim, sometimes I just feel like 'being my character' and that is a thing that happens whether I win or lose.

Now, granted, at least in some fighting games this either baffles my opponents or terrifies them, but the point is that I can just want to fight and that is a completely separate feeling and wish from wanting to or trying to WIN.

This is actually annoyingly common for me. If I fight an opponent and I overpower them in neutral and they start to back off and switch to 'bait and punish' tactics, I just stand there and stop blocking. I'll still attack them if I feel like it will lead to me 'getting to do the thing I like doing', but otherwise, they can have the match.

Is it still competitive if I get bored of winning and stop winning?

You can not care about winning or losing but still fight and it will be competitive. You can half ass it and try new things and mess around a bit which is still competitive.

If you really don't want to win and you do the same thing over and over again until you lose not caring and throw the game that isn't' competitive. I've maid this point before about killing lowbies or when you one shot someone, or if its a gank and its a for sure thing you win. If you are fighting someone bad and you can beat them easily with one hand its not really competitive either they simply don't understand the game so there is not much to fight about. Though competition does create growth and that could change if the person improves and that is the beauty of it and why it excels in direct pvp.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You don't need to define competition for yourself you just go by the definition...

What dictionary have you taken your understanding of the word "competitive" from?

Or have you just made up your own definition?

The pvpers are talking right now.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

I wasn't striving to win anything, nor could I win/gain anything.

It wasn't an event or contest, because there was no reward for the actions we did.

And my target wasn't a competitor because there was no event to compete in.

So none of the realities of the situation fit the definition of a competition. But as I've said before, you could pose this as a psychological question of "whether I wanted to dominate my target", but that was never a conscious thought in my mind. You could say I thought that on a subconscious level, but at that point it'd become a philosophical question of "how does one define competition for themselves? is it a conscious thought or a state of being, no matter the attitude of the people participating in said "competition".

But under the dictionary definition of competition - it was not one.

I don't know how you post that and ignore the words in the definition.

"the activity or condition of competing:"

You are striving to beat them in a fight and go deeper tot he grind spot you want. If you are not striving to win the fight or care about it you would be indifferent and wouldn't have went to pvp with them to begin with. If you were not striving to win anything which means the battle you wouldn't have tried to do anything and let them kill you. It doesn't matter if you don't care if you win or lose your action to try to win is enough hence it is competitive.

You don't need to define competition for yourself you just go by the definition...After the battle you can judge their level of skill be it a competitive fight or not.

See, this is the thing you, as a non-elitist, can't grasp.

I can fight without trying to do the thing required to win the fight.

I can fight without caring whether I win or lose the fight. I can and do attack people without any interest in winning based on the game's system, sometimes it's just to gather data, sometimes it's just to test something, sometimes it's just a whim, sometimes I just feel like 'being my character' and that is a thing that happens whether I win or lose.

Now, granted, at least in some fighting games this either baffles my opponents or terrifies them, but the point is that I can just want to fight and that is a completely separate feeling and wish from wanting to or trying to WIN.

This is actually annoyingly common for me. If I fight an opponent and I overpower them in neutral and they start to back off and switch to 'bait and punish' tactics, I just stand there and stop blocking. I'll still attack them if I feel like it will lead to me 'getting to do the thing I like doing', but otherwise, they can have the match.

Is it still competitive if I get bored of winning and stop winning?

You can not care about winning or losing but still fight and it will be competitive. You can half ass it and try new things and mess around a bit which is still competitive.

If you really don't want to win and you do the same thing over and over again until you lose not caring and throw the game that isn't' competitive. I've maid this point before about killing lowbies or when you one shot someone, or if its a gank and its a for sure thing you win. If you are fighting someone bad and you can beat them easily with one hand its not really competitive either they simply don't understand the game so there is not much to fight about. Though competition does create growth and that could change if the person improves and that is the beauty of it and why it excels in direct pvp.

You're still not able to grasp it.

I'm not throwing the game, that's the conclusion that a non-elitist comes to.

To throw the game would mean that I was trying to WIN the game. I wasn't trying to win the game. I never 'changed to trying to win the game'. I was trying to 'play my character'.

My opponent 'running away' prevents me from playing my character. They run away because THEY are trying to win. So they 'stop me from playing my character' and they usually also 'stop playing their own character'.

I was never on the same plane of goals/thought as the opponent to start with. There was no competition. I JUST wanted to play my character and a human opponent happened to be the target. It just ALSO happens to be true that if a strong player faces me and truly believes they are going to win, they don't 'stop playing their own character' as often/as fast, so it looks competitive.

But from my end it's the same thing. I just want to fight, and my opponent happens to be human.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Premise 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor_(gymnastics) this sport is competitive. Even if players do not perform at the same time. You measure scores at the end to determine the winner.

Premise 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay_race this sport is also competitive. Even if it is a team sport, everyone's performances effect the end outcome. A winning team is declared by whatever team collectively gets the best time.

Premise 3: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedrun Speedrunning is just an electronic version of a race.

Premise 4: You do not need to race someone at the same time for the time to be measured against one another and a winner to be declared if Premise 1 is true. So if you accept Premise 3 speedruns can be seen as a race between one or multiple people at any given time.

Premise 5: mmo raids can be speedrun.

Premise 6: mmo raids can be like relay races in that how well one person performs effects the teams completion time

Conclusion: mmo raids can be competitive.

Tell me which premises you disagree with please.

As far as gymnastics goes people are competing directly against each other, same with racing using their own body in something that is undetermined.

So ill get to the important part again with 5+.

First off there are guides so you know exactly what to do. There is a challenge at hand but you are simply following what people have done before you already copying some elements or trying some new elements to do it a little bit faster. What you are fighting is also AI and not a player so there is no direct relation player vrs player. (I'm assuming you are going to try to rebuttal with racing but its not the same thing as racers aren't solving a puzzle and that puzzle in a mmorpg has already been solved in terms speedruns.).

Players simply doing what they know they need to do in how a guide explains isn't competitive as you are fighting AI and not a human. You know the challenge and are simply trying some new things in order to get a slightly faster time. You aren't trying to overcome the challenge that is the mind / body / reaction of another you are simply fighting some AI with a set puzzles you need to overcome as well with a good dose of RNG.

I think people have tried to tell you multiple times that this is a logical error.

I understand that for you, if you are talking about Average Content, that doesn't cause the majority of Average players to just wipe, then there will always be a guide because a Noaani made one, even if it was just to get some guild members up to speed.

No one is talking about that Average content.

So are you trying to argue less than a handful of pieces of PvE content is competitive?

Absolutely!

Now you've got it!

And that handful is the handful we've been disagreeing on for the last 30-odd pages.

It was just our (can I say that? I would be speaking for others) expectation that you were talking about the same thing. I had to refactor everything based on your behavioural cues to even realize 'oh, wait... no, this isn't the same basis'.

I'll clarify using the other thing since it will probably hit the right nerve.

When you said you were Top 10 in Soul Calibur, no one noticed that you meant 'I managed to be Top 10 for a little while that one time'.

Because we're elitists. We thought you were saying "I am consistently able to be Top 10 in this game', not 'Oh I was pretty good for a bit, it even got me on a leaderboard for like a day'.

You are being a bit to quick to judge this, I still don't think it is competitive, if pve was competitive it would include all content and form. The fact most of it can be disregarded isn't a positive, players are competitive with themselves though someone beating a raid first perhaps can be competitive but really on a much smaller scale of things and that is do to a lot of factors. There is no real reward screaming to players to all make that aim, everyone has their own goals and desires that they will do at their own pace. If competition is a few guilds with the time and members to do it, that is a drop in the bucket of the player base. THe same way jumping on soulcalibur during this time would be pointless to say you are the best with a lack luster amount of competition to be available.

Unsure if you played soulcalibur during its release and fully aware how the leaderboards work. I wouldn't expect people "elitist"(noobs in fighting games) to understand how it works either. You don't just get to the top for a day you fight to stay up there but also being at such a high point you don't fall that easily as well do to the effort it takes to be and stay at the top for a set amount of time. Most people that don't play fighting games wouldn't understand though which is fair to make bad assumptions, until hey get smacked with a 17 hit combo.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Premise 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor_(gymnastics) this sport is competitive. Even if players do not perform at the same time. You measure scores at the end to determine the winner.

Premise 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay_race this sport is also competitive. Even if it is a team sport, everyone's performances effect the end outcome. A winning team is declared by whatever team collectively gets the best time.

Premise 3: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedrun Speedrunning is just an electronic version of a race.

Premise 4: You do not need to race someone at the same time for the time to be measured against one another and a winner to be declared if Premise 1 is true. So if you accept Premise 3 speedruns can be seen as a race between one or multiple people at any given time.

Premise 5: mmo raids can be speedrun.

Premise 6: mmo raids can be like relay races in that how well one person performs effects the teams completion time

Conclusion: mmo raids can be competitive.

Tell me which premises you disagree with please.

As far as gymnastics goes people are competing directly against each other, same with racing using their own body in something that is undetermined.

So ill get to the important part again with 5+.

First off there are guides so you know exactly what to do. There is a challenge at hand but you are simply following what people have done before you already copying some elements or trying some new elements to do it a little bit faster. What you are fighting is also AI and not a player so there is no direct relation player vrs player. (I'm assuming you are going to try to rebuttal with racing but its not the same thing as racers aren't solving a puzzle and that puzzle in a mmorpg has already been solved in terms speedruns.).

Players simply doing what they know they need to do in how a guide explains isn't competitive as you are fighting AI and not a human. You know the challenge and are simply trying some new things in order to get a slightly faster time. You aren't trying to overcome the challenge that is the mind / body / reaction of another you are simply fighting some AI with a set puzzles you need to overcome as well with a good dose of RNG.

I think people have tried to tell you multiple times that this is a logical error.

I understand that for you, if you are talking about Average Content, that doesn't cause the majority of Average players to just wipe, then there will always be a guide because a Noaani made one, even if it was just to get some guild members up to speed.

No one is talking about that Average content.

So are you trying to argue less than a handful of pieces of PvE content is competitive?

Absolutely!

Now you've got it!

And that handful is the handful we've been disagreeing on for the last 30-odd pages.

It was just our (can I say that? I would be speaking for others) expectation that you were talking about the same thing. I had to refactor everything based on your behavioural cues to even realize 'oh, wait... no, this isn't the same basis'.

I'll clarify using the other thing since it will probably hit the right nerve.

When you said you were Top 10 in Soul Calibur, no one noticed that you meant 'I managed to be Top 10 for a little while that one time'.

Because we're elitists. We thought you were saying "I am consistently able to be Top 10 in this game', not 'Oh I was pretty good for a bit, it even got me on a leaderboard for like a day'.

You are being a bit to quick to judge this, I still don't think it is competitive, if pve was competitive it would include all content and form. The fact most of it can be disregarded isn't a positive, players are competitive with themselves though someone beating a raid first perhaps can be competitive but really on a much smaller scale of things and that is do to a lot of factors. There is no real reward screaming to players to all make that aim, everyone has their own goals and desires that they will do at their own pace. If competition is a few guilds with the time and members to do it, that is a drop in the bucket of the player base. THe same way jumping on soulcalibur during this time would be pointless to say you are the best with a lack luster amount of competition to be available.

Unsure if you played soulcalibur during its release and fully aware how the leaderboards work. I wouldn't expect people "elitist"(noobs in fighting games) to understand how it works either. You don't just get to the top for a day you fight to stay up there but also being at such a high point you don't fall that easily as well do to the effort it takes to be and stay at the top for a set amount of time. Most people that don't play fighting games wouldn't understand though which is fair to make bad assumptions, until hey get smacked with a 17 hit combo.

And that's exactly it.

The problem is that you came into a space with a LOT of elitists, in fact, a bunch of (in the case of my team) Fighting Game Elitists.

They DID all play SC6 at release. They DO know that you were top 10 on XBox for the short period of time when 15,000 RP was enough to be in the top 10. No one knows if you kept up with it, only that you didn't seem to.

The difference is that if you fastforward to a month or so after that period, when people were at 30,000 RP, those people got there by 'being elitists'. They only compete with each other, really. Sure, other people can fight them, but it's not too hard for them to stay up there.

If you didn't 'stay up there', or if you 'stopped playing and all those people surpassed your 15,000, it's simply because they kept pushing.

But remember still. Steven is the one that said there will be raiding, that there will be tiers, that only <10% of people will be able to clear the top content. This is the Creative Director's intention. That's why it was the assumption.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

I wasn't striving to win anything, nor could I win/gain anything.

It wasn't an event or contest, because there was no reward for the actions we did.

And my target wasn't a competitor because there was no event to compete in.

So none of the realities of the situation fit the definition of a competition. But as I've said before, you could pose this as a psychological question of "whether I wanted to dominate my target", but that was never a conscious thought in my mind. You could say I thought that on a subconscious level, but at that point it'd become a philosophical question of "how does one define competition for themselves? is it a conscious thought or a state of being, no matter the attitude of the people participating in said "competition".

But under the dictionary definition of competition - it was not one.

I don't know how you post that and ignore the words in the definition.

"the activity or condition of competing:"

You are striving to beat them in a fight and go deeper tot he grind spot you want. If you are not striving to win the fight or care about it you would be indifferent and wouldn't have went to pvp with them to begin with. If you were not striving to win anything which means the battle you wouldn't have tried to do anything and let them kill you. It doesn't matter if you don't care if you win or lose your action to try to win is enough hence it is competitive.

You don't need to define competition for yourself you just go by the definition...After the battle you can judge their level of skill be it a competitive fight or not.

See, this is the thing you, as a non-elitist, can't grasp.

I can fight without trying to do the thing required to win the fight.

I can fight without caring whether I win or lose the fight. I can and do attack people without any interest in winning based on the game's system, sometimes it's just to gather data, sometimes it's just to test something, sometimes it's just a whim, sometimes I just feel like 'being my character' and that is a thing that happens whether I win or lose.

Now, granted, at least in some fighting games this either baffles my opponents or terrifies them, but the point is that I can just want to fight and that is a completely separate feeling and wish from wanting to or trying to WIN.

This is actually annoyingly common for me. If I fight an opponent and I overpower them in neutral and they start to back off and switch to 'bait and punish' tactics, I just stand there and stop blocking. I'll still attack them if I feel like it will lead to me 'getting to do the thing I like doing', but otherwise, they can have the match.

Is it still competitive if I get bored of winning and stop winning?

You can not care about winning or losing but still fight and it will be competitive. You can half ass it and try new things and mess around a bit which is still competitive.

If you really don't want to win and you do the same thing over and over again until you lose not caring and throw the game that isn't' competitive. I've maid this point before about killing lowbies or when you one shot someone, or if its a gank and its a for sure thing you win. If you are fighting someone bad and you can beat them easily with one hand its not really competitive either they simply don't understand the game so there is not much to fight about. Though competition does create growth and that could change if the person improves and that is the beauty of it and why it excels in direct pvp.

You're still not able to grasp it.

I'm not throwing the game, that's the conclusion that a non-elitist comes to.

To throw the game would mean that I was trying to WIN the game. I wasn't trying to win the game. I never 'changed to trying to win the game'. I was trying to 'play my character'.

My opponent 'running away' prevents me from playing my character. They run away because THEY are trying to win. So they 'stop me from playing my character' and they usually also 'stop playing their own character'.

I was never on the same plane of goals/thought as the opponent to start with. There was no competition. I JUST wanted to play my character and a human opponent happened to be the target. It just ALSO happens to be true that if a strong player faces me and truly believes they are going to win, they don't 'stop playing their own character' as often/as fast, so it looks competitive.

But from my end it's the same thing. I just want to fight, and my opponent happens to be human.

Honestly this point gets a bit weird, I can say you are making it confusing enough with lack of information. I'd have to see to judge at this point, if you are trying to lose and making 0 attempt to win it sounds like a boring match. If playing your character involves fighting and there for winning its competitive, to whatever degree that is up to you.

You can paly your character but there is only winning or losing in a match at the end of the day. Are you trying to win or are you trying to lose. I'm im fighting someone and not really trying and playing my character in a rp sense or miming all their moves for fun I am still trying to hit them and there I'm trying to win the match even if I'm not giving it my all or really trying to get that result.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Premise 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor_(gymnastics) this sport is competitive. Even if players do not perform at the same time. You measure scores at the end to determine the winner.

Premise 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay_race this sport is also competitive. Even if it is a team sport, everyone's performances effect the end outcome. A winning team is declared by whatever team collectively gets the best time.

Premise 3: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedrun Speedrunning is just an electronic version of a race.

Premise 4: You do not need to race someone at the same time for the time to be measured against one another and a winner to be declared if Premise 1 is true. So if you accept Premise 3 speedruns can be seen as a race between one or multiple people at any given time.

Premise 5: mmo raids can be speedrun.

Premise 6: mmo raids can be like relay races in that how well one person performs effects the teams completion time

Conclusion: mmo raids can be competitive.

Tell me which premises you disagree with please.

As far as gymnastics goes people are competing directly against each other, same with racing using their own body in something that is undetermined.

So ill get to the important part again with 5+.

First off there are guides so you know exactly what to do. There is a challenge at hand but you are simply following what people have done before you already copying some elements or trying some new elements to do it a little bit faster. What you are fighting is also AI and not a player so there is no direct relation player vrs player. (I'm assuming you are going to try to rebuttal with racing but its not the same thing as racers aren't solving a puzzle and that puzzle in a mmorpg has already been solved in terms speedruns.).

Players simply doing what they know they need to do in how a guide explains isn't competitive as you are fighting AI and not a human. You know the challenge and are simply trying some new things in order to get a slightly faster time. You aren't trying to overcome the challenge that is the mind / body / reaction of another you are simply fighting some AI with a set puzzles you need to overcome as well with a good dose of RNG.

I think people have tried to tell you multiple times that this is a logical error.

I understand that for you, if you are talking about Average Content, that doesn't cause the majority of Average players to just wipe, then there will always be a guide because a Noaani made one, even if it was just to get some guild members up to speed.

No one is talking about that Average content.

So are you trying to argue less than a handful of pieces of PvE content is competitive?

Absolutely!

Now you've got it!

And that handful is the handful we've been disagreeing on for the last 30-odd pages.

It was just our (can I say that? I would be speaking for others) expectation that you were talking about the same thing. I had to refactor everything based on your behavioural cues to even realize 'oh, wait... no, this isn't the same basis'.

I'll clarify using the other thing since it will probably hit the right nerve.

When you said you were Top 10 in Soul Calibur, no one noticed that you meant 'I managed to be Top 10 for a little while that one time'.

Because we're elitists. We thought you were saying "I am consistently able to be Top 10 in this game', not 'Oh I was pretty good for a bit, it even got me on a leaderboard for like a day'.

You are being a bit to quick to judge this, I still don't think it is competitive, if pve was competitive it would include all content and form. The fact most of it can be disregarded isn't a positive, players are competitive with themselves though someone beating a raid first perhaps can be competitive but really on a much smaller scale of things and that is do to a lot of factors. There is no real reward screaming to players to all make that aim, everyone has their own goals and desires that they will do at their own pace. If competition is a few guilds with the time and members to do it, that is a drop in the bucket of the player base. THe same way jumping on soulcalibur during this time would be pointless to say you are the best with a lack luster amount of competition to be available.

Unsure if you played soulcalibur during its release and fully aware how the leaderboards work. I wouldn't expect people "elitist"(noobs in fighting games) to understand how it works either. You don't just get to the top for a day you fight to stay up there but also being at such a high point you don't fall that easily as well do to the effort it takes to be and stay at the top for a set amount of time. Most people that don't play fighting games wouldn't understand though which is fair to make bad assumptions, until hey get smacked with a 17 hit combo.

And that's exactly it.

The problem is that you came into a space with a LOT of elitists, in fact, a bunch of (in the case of my team) Fighting Game Elitists.

They DID all play SC6 at release. They DO know that you were top 10 on XBox for the short period of time when 15,000 RP was enough to be in the top 10. No one knows if you kept up with it, only that you didn't seem to.

The difference is that if you fastforward to a month or so after that period, when people were at 30,000 RP, those people got there by 'being elitists'. They only compete with each other, really. Sure, other people can fight them, but it's not too hard for them to stay up there.

If you didn't 'stay up there', or if you 'stopped playing and all those people surpassed your 15,000, it's simply because they kept pushing.

But remember still. Steven is the one that said there will be raiding, that there will be tiers, that only <10% of people will be able to clear the top content. This is the Creative Director's intention. That's why it was the assumption.

I'm curious who did you know?

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

I wasn't striving to win anything, nor could I win/gain anything.

It wasn't an event or contest, because there was no reward for the actions we did.

And my target wasn't a competitor because there was no event to compete in.

So none of the realities of the situation fit the definition of a competition. But as I've said before, you could pose this as a psychological question of "whether I wanted to dominate my target", but that was never a conscious thought in my mind. You could say I thought that on a subconscious level, but at that point it'd become a philosophical question of "how does one define competition for themselves? is it a conscious thought or a state of being, no matter the attitude of the people participating in said "competition".

But under the dictionary definition of competition - it was not one.

I don't know how you post that and ignore the words in the definition.

"the activity or condition of competing:"

You are striving to beat them in a fight and go deeper tot he grind spot you want. If you are not striving to win the fight or care about it you would be indifferent and wouldn't have went to pvp with them to begin with. If you were not striving to win anything which means the battle you wouldn't have tried to do anything and let them kill you. It doesn't matter if you don't care if you win or lose your action to try to win is enough hence it is competitive.

You don't need to define competition for yourself you just go by the definition...After the battle you can judge their level of skill be it a competitive fight or not.

See, this is the thing you, as a non-elitist, can't grasp.

I can fight without trying to do the thing required to win the fight.

I can fight without caring whether I win or lose the fight. I can and do attack people without any interest in winning based on the game's system, sometimes it's just to gather data, sometimes it's just to test something, sometimes it's just a whim, sometimes I just feel like 'being my character' and that is a thing that happens whether I win or lose.

Now, granted, at least in some fighting games this either baffles my opponents or terrifies them, but the point is that I can just want to fight and that is a completely separate feeling and wish from wanting to or trying to WIN.

This is actually annoyingly common for me. If I fight an opponent and I overpower them in neutral and they start to back off and switch to 'bait and punish' tactics, I just stand there and stop blocking. I'll still attack them if I feel like it will lead to me 'getting to do the thing I like doing', but otherwise, they can have the match.

Is it still competitive if I get bored of winning and stop winning?

You can not care about winning or losing but still fight and it will be competitive. You can half ass it and try new things and mess around a bit which is still competitive.

If you really don't want to win and you do the same thing over and over again until you lose not caring and throw the game that isn't' competitive. I've maid this point before about killing lowbies or when you one shot someone, or if its a gank and its a for sure thing you win. If you are fighting someone bad and you can beat them easily with one hand its not really competitive either they simply don't understand the game so there is not much to fight about. Though competition does create growth and that could change if the person improves and that is the beauty of it and why it excels in direct pvp.

You're still not able to grasp it.

I'm not throwing the game, that's the conclusion that a non-elitist comes to.

To throw the game would mean that I was trying to WIN the game. I wasn't trying to win the game. I never 'changed to trying to win the game'. I was trying to 'play my character'.

My opponent 'running away' prevents me from playing my character. They run away because THEY are trying to win. So they 'stop me from playing my character' and they usually also 'stop playing their own character'.

I was never on the same plane of goals/thought as the opponent to start with. There was no competition. I JUST wanted to play my character and a human opponent happened to be the target. It just ALSO happens to be true that if a strong player faces me and truly believes they are going to win, they don't 'stop playing their own character' as often/as fast, so it looks competitive.

But from my end it's the same thing. I just want to fight, and my opponent happens to be human.

Honestly this point gets a bit weird, I can say you are making it confusing enough with lack of information. I'd have to see to judge at this point, if you are trying to lose and making 0 attempt to win it sounds like a boring match. If playing your character involves fighting and there for winning its competitive, to whatever degree that is up to you.

You can paly your character but there is only winning or losing in a match at the end of the day. Are you trying to win or are you trying to lose. I'm im fighting someone and not really trying and playing my character in a rp sense or miming all their moves for fun I am still trying to hit them and there I'm trying to win the match even if I'm not giving it my all or really trying to get that result.

You can try to visualize it for now, since you know enough basics to get it.

My character takes a step forward. My opponent can't figure out how to safely attack, so I attack, I succeed.
At that point, I'm playing my character.

My opponent is now down, I pressure maybe. They don't know how best to defend, but they manage to keep blocking. I'm still playing my character. They try for a counterattack that I predicted and get hit.
Still playing my character.

My opponent decides that 'being close to me is a bad idea whether they are trying to hit me or defend', and then backdash. Six times. I walk forward. Keep walking. Opponent eventually gets to the corner, right?
I wasn't playing my character while walking forward, exactly, but once corner happens, I can do it a bit.

One of two things is about to happen. Still with me? If not, reread a bit above.

Either I'm going to attack them while they're in the corner and succeed, or I'm going to fail the attack and get knocked down. If I succeed enough times, I win. If I fail the attack and get knocked down, my opponent jumps over my character...

And starts backdashing again.

If I want to WIN the fight, I stop here, I can wait until I win by TimeOut. I don't want to Win. I want to FIGHT. I walk forward. And I attack. until either I fail all my attacks and lose, or succeed enough and win. But every time I fail an attack, and my opponent backdashes all the way back across the screen for 11 seconds, I am not playing my character.

If I can get OUT of this type of match faster by winning, I will win by TimeOut. Not because I want to win. Because if I'm up one round and I have a choice of 'winning Round 2 and ending the match' or 'my opponent backdashing for 2 more rounds until they win' (while I'm not getting to play), I should win the match so I can get to the next one. Because this will get me another chance to play my character.

There's never a point in that sequence where I am thinking "I am having a competition with this person."

They're not necessarily a bad player. They're not even necessarily a weak player. They have sometimes CORRECTLY concluded that the best way to WIN is to backdash and hope I mess up. They are 'competing'.

I am not.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

I wasn't striving to win anything, nor could I win/gain anything.

It wasn't an event or contest, because there was no reward for the actions we did.

And my target wasn't a competitor because there was no event to compete in.

So none of the realities of the situation fit the definition of a competition. But as I've said before, you could pose this as a psychological question of "whether I wanted to dominate my target", but that was never a conscious thought in my mind. You could say I thought that on a subconscious level, but at that point it'd become a philosophical question of "how does one define competition for themselves? is it a conscious thought or a state of being, no matter the attitude of the people participating in said "competition".

But under the dictionary definition of competition - it was not one.

I don't know how you post that and ignore the words in the definition.

"the activity or condition of competing:"

You are striving to beat them in a fight and go deeper tot he grind spot you want. If you are not striving to win the fight or care about it you would be indifferent and wouldn't have went to pvp with them to begin with. If you were not striving to win anything which means the battle you wouldn't have tried to do anything and let them kill you. It doesn't matter if you don't care if you win or lose your action to try to win is enough hence it is competitive.

You don't need to define competition for yourself you just go by the definition...After the battle you can judge their level of skill be it a competitive fight or not.

See, this is the thing you, as a non-elitist, can't grasp.

I can fight without trying to do the thing required to win the fight.

I can fight without caring whether I win or lose the fight. I can and do attack people without any interest in winning based on the game's system, sometimes it's just to gather data, sometimes it's just to test something, sometimes it's just a whim, sometimes I just feel like 'being my character' and that is a thing that happens whether I win or lose.

Now, granted, at least in some fighting games this either baffles my opponents or terrifies them, but the point is that I can just want to fight and that is a completely separate feeling and wish from wanting to or trying to WIN.

This is actually annoyingly common for me. If I fight an opponent and I overpower them in neutral and they start to back off and switch to 'bait and punish' tactics, I just stand there and stop blocking. I'll still attack them if I feel like it will lead to me 'getting to do the thing I like doing', but otherwise, they can have the match.

Is it still competitive if I get bored of winning and stop winning?

You can not care about winning or losing but still fight and it will be competitive. You can half ass it and try new things and mess around a bit which is still competitive.

If you really don't want to win and you do the same thing over and over again until you lose not caring and throw the game that isn't' competitive. I've maid this point before about killing lowbies or when you one shot someone, or if its a gank and its a for sure thing you win. If you are fighting someone bad and you can beat them easily with one hand its not really competitive either they simply don't understand the game so there is not much to fight about. Though competition does create growth and that could change if the person improves and that is the beauty of it and why it excels in direct pvp.

You're still not able to grasp it.

I'm not throwing the game, that's the conclusion that a non-elitist comes to.

To throw the game would mean that I was trying to WIN the game. I wasn't trying to win the game. I never 'changed to trying to win the game'. I was trying to 'play my character'.

My opponent 'running away' prevents me from playing my character. They run away because THEY are trying to win. So they 'stop me from playing my character' and they usually also 'stop playing their own character'.

I was never on the same plane of goals/thought as the opponent to start with. There was no competition. I JUST wanted to play my character and a human opponent happened to be the target. It just ALSO happens to be true that if a strong player faces me and truly believes they are going to win, they don't 'stop playing their own character' as often/as fast, so it looks competitive.

But from my end it's the same thing. I just want to fight, and my opponent happens to be human.

Honestly this point gets a bit weird, I can say you are making it confusing enough with lack of information. I'd have to see to judge at this point, if you are trying to lose and making 0 attempt to win it sounds like a boring match. If playing your character involves fighting and there for winning its competitive, to whatever degree that is up to you.

You can paly your character but there is only winning or losing in a match at the end of the day. Are you trying to win or are you trying to lose. I'm im fighting someone and not really trying and playing my character in a rp sense or miming all their moves for fun I am still trying to hit them and there I'm trying to win the match even if I'm not giving it my all or really trying to get that result.

You can try to visualize it for now, since you know enough basics to get it.

My character takes a step forward. My opponent can't figure out how to safely attack, so I attack, I succeed.
At that point, I'm playing my character.

My opponent is now down, I pressure maybe. They don't know how best to defend, but they manage to keep blocking. I'm still playing my character. They try for a counterattack that I predicted and get hit.
Still playing my character.

My opponent decides that 'being close to me is a bad idea whether they are trying to hit me or defend', and then backdash. Six times. I walk forward. Keep walking. Opponent eventually gets to the corner, right?
I wasn't playing my character while walking forward, exactly, but once corner happens, I can do it a bit.

One of two things is about to happen. Still with me? If not, reread a bit above.

Either I'm going to attack them while they're in the corner and succeed, or I'm going to fail the attack and get knocked down. If I succeed enough times, I win. If I fail the attack and get knocked down, my opponent jumps over my character...

And starts backdashing again.

If I want to WIN the fight, I stop here, I can wait until I win by TimeOut. I don't want to Win. I want to FIGHT. I walk forward. And I attack. until either I fail all my attacks and lose, or succeed enough and win. But every time I fail an attack, and my opponent backdashes all the way back across the screen for 11 seconds, I am not playing my character.

If I can get OUT of this type of match faster by winning, I will win by TimeOut. Not because I want to win. Because if I'm up one round and I have a choice of 'winning Round 2 and ending the match' or 'my opponent backdashing for 2 more rounds until they win' (while I'm not getting to play), I should win the match so I can get to the next one. Because this will get me another chance to play my character.

There's never a point in that sequence where I am thinking "I am having a competition with this person."

They're not necessarily a bad player. They're not even necessarily a weak player. They have sometimes CORRECTLY concluded that the best way to WIN is to backdash and hope I mess up. They are 'competing'.

I am not.

Sounds like a fight to me but kind of over this debate on trying to win or not etc more interested in another question now. Who did you know on xbox?

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Premise 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor_(gymnastics) this sport is competitive. Even if players do not perform at the same time. You measure scores at the end to determine the winner.

Premise 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay_race this sport is also competitive. Even if it is a team sport, everyone's performances effect the end outcome. A winning team is declared by whatever team collectively gets the best time.

Premise 3: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedrun Speedrunning is just an electronic version of a race.

Premise 4: You do not need to race someone at the same time for the time to be measured against one another and a winner to be declared if Premise 1 is true. So if you accept Premise 3 speedruns can be seen as a race between one or multiple people at any given time.

Premise 5: mmo raids can be speedrun.

Premise 6: mmo raids can be like relay races in that how well one person performs effects the teams completion time

Conclusion: mmo raids can be competitive.

Tell me which premises you disagree with please.

As far as gymnastics goes people are competing directly against each other, same with racing using their own body in something that is undetermined.

So ill get to the important part again with 5+.

First off there are guides so you know exactly what to do. There is a challenge at hand but you are simply following what people have done before you already copying some elements or trying some new elements to do it a little bit faster. What you are fighting is also AI and not a player so there is no direct relation player vrs player. (I'm assuming you are going to try to rebuttal with racing but its not the same thing as racers aren't solving a puzzle and that puzzle in a mmorpg has already been solved in terms speedruns.).

Players simply doing what they know they need to do in how a guide explains isn't competitive as you are fighting AI and not a human. You know the challenge and are simply trying some new things in order to get a slightly faster time. You aren't trying to overcome the challenge that is the mind / body / reaction of another you are simply fighting some AI with a set puzzles you need to overcome as well with a good dose of RNG.

I think people have tried to tell you multiple times that this is a logical error.

I understand that for you, if you are talking about Average Content, that doesn't cause the majority of Average players to just wipe, then there will always be a guide because a Noaani made one, even if it was just to get some guild members up to speed.

No one is talking about that Average content.

So are you trying to argue less than a handful of pieces of PvE content is competitive?

Absolutely!

Now you've got it!

And that handful is the handful we've been disagreeing on for the last 30-odd pages.

It was just our (can I say that? I would be speaking for others) expectation that you were talking about the same thing. I had to refactor everything based on your behavioural cues to even realize 'oh, wait... no, this isn't the same basis'.

I'll clarify using the other thing since it will probably hit the right nerve.

When you said you were Top 10 in Soul Calibur, no one noticed that you meant 'I managed to be Top 10 for a little while that one time'.

Because we're elitists. We thought you were saying "I am consistently able to be Top 10 in this game', not 'Oh I was pretty good for a bit, it even got me on a leaderboard for like a day'.

You are being a bit to quick to judge this, I still don't think it is competitive, if pve was competitive it would include all content and form. The fact most of it can be disregarded isn't a positive, players are competitive with themselves though someone beating a raid first perhaps can be competitive but really on a much smaller scale of things and that is do to a lot of factors. There is no real reward screaming to players to all make that aim, everyone has their own goals and desires that they will do at their own pace. If competition is a few guilds with the time and members to do it, that is a drop in the bucket of the player base. THe same way jumping on soulcalibur during this time would be pointless to say you are the best with a lack luster amount of competition to be available.

Unsure if you played soulcalibur during its release and fully aware how the leaderboards work. I wouldn't expect people "elitist"(noobs in fighting games) to understand how it works either. You don't just get to the top for a day you fight to stay up there but also being at such a high point you don't fall that easily as well do to the effort it takes to be and stay at the top for a set amount of time. Most people that don't play fighting games wouldn't understand though which is fair to make bad assumptions, until hey get smacked with a 17 hit combo.

And that's exactly it.

The problem is that you came into a space with a LOT of elitists, in fact, a bunch of (in the case of my team) Fighting Game Elitists.

They DID all play SC6 at release. They DO know that you were top 10 on XBox for the short period of time when 15,000 RP was enough to be in the top 10. No one knows if you kept up with it, only that you didn't seem to.

The difference is that if you fastforward to a month or so after that period, when people were at 30,000 RP, those people got there by 'being elitists'. They only compete with each other, really. Sure, other people can fight them, but it's not too hard for them to stay up there.

If you didn't 'stay up there', or if you 'stopped playing and all those people surpassed your 15,000, it's simply because they kept pushing.

But remember still. Steven is the one that said there will be raiding, that there will be tiers, that only <10% of people will be able to clear the top content. This is the Creative Director's intention. That's why it was the assumption.

I'm curious who did you know?

I think I've caused the wrong effect here. Don't focus on who I know, who I am, personal skill, any of that. You'll end up in a space where you want to 'prove something' without even realizing it.

Just know that I don't suck at Fighting games. How's that? You can think of me as 'one of those High Rank players who uploads their wins'. Not saying that I'm the best, just that I'm good ENOUGH that I would do it.

If you want a more precise measurement than that, you can go with "Can keep up with World Champions, and they can find playing against me enjoyable."

The question of 'who I know' is broad because you have to define 'know', right?

The point here isn't your SC6 performance, or my SC6 performance, the point is that an elitist has different goals than a non-elitist, and they think about competition very differently.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

I wasn't striving to win anything, nor could I win/gain anything.

It wasn't an event or contest, because there was no reward for the actions we did.

And my target wasn't a competitor because there was no event to compete in.

So none of the realities of the situation fit the definition of a competition. But as I've said before, you could pose this as a psychological question of "whether I wanted to dominate my target", but that was never a conscious thought in my mind. You could say I thought that on a subconscious level, but at that point it'd become a philosophical question of "how does one define competition for themselves? is it a conscious thought or a state of being, no matter the attitude of the people participating in said "competition".

But under the dictionary definition of competition - it was not one.

I don't know how you post that and ignore the words in the definition.

"the activity or condition of competing:"

You are striving to beat them in a fight and go deeper tot he grind spot you want. If you are not striving to win the fight or care about it you would be indifferent and wouldn't have went to pvp with them to begin with. If you were not striving to win anything which means the battle you wouldn't have tried to do anything and let them kill you. It doesn't matter if you don't care if you win or lose your action to try to win is enough hence it is competitive.

You don't need to define competition for yourself you just go by the definition...After the battle you can judge their level of skill be it a competitive fight or not.

See, this is the thing you, as a non-elitist, can't grasp.

I can fight without trying to do the thing required to win the fight.

I can fight without caring whether I win or lose the fight. I can and do attack people without any interest in winning based on the game's system, sometimes it's just to gather data, sometimes it's just to test something, sometimes it's just a whim, sometimes I just feel like 'being my character' and that is a thing that happens whether I win or lose.

Now, granted, at least in some fighting games this either baffles my opponents or terrifies them, but the point is that I can just want to fight and that is a completely separate feeling and wish from wanting to or trying to WIN.

This is actually annoyingly common for me. If I fight an opponent and I overpower them in neutral and they start to back off and switch to 'bait and punish' tactics, I just stand there and stop blocking. I'll still attack them if I feel like it will lead to me 'getting to do the thing I like doing', but otherwise, they can have the match.

Is it still competitive if I get bored of winning and stop winning?

You can not care about winning or losing but still fight and it will be competitive. You can half ass it and try new things and mess around a bit which is still competitive.

If you really don't want to win and you do the same thing over and over again until you lose not caring and throw the game that isn't' competitive. I've maid this point before about killing lowbies or when you one shot someone, or if its a gank and its a for sure thing you win. If you are fighting someone bad and you can beat them easily with one hand its not really competitive either they simply don't understand the game so there is not much to fight about. Though competition does create growth and that could change if the person improves and that is the beauty of it and why it excels in direct pvp.

You're still not able to grasp it.

I'm not throwing the game, that's the conclusion that a non-elitist comes to.

To throw the game would mean that I was trying to WIN the game. I wasn't trying to win the game. I never 'changed to trying to win the game'. I was trying to 'play my character'.

My opponent 'running away' prevents me from playing my character. They run away because THEY are trying to win. So they 'stop me from playing my character' and they usually also 'stop playing their own character'.

I was never on the same plane of goals/thought as the opponent to start with. There was no competition. I JUST wanted to play my character and a human opponent happened to be the target. It just ALSO happens to be true that if a strong player faces me and truly believes they are going to win, they don't 'stop playing their own character' as often/as fast, so it looks competitive.

But from my end it's the same thing. I just want to fight, and my opponent happens to be human.

Honestly this point gets a bit weird, I can say you are making it confusing enough with lack of information. I'd have to see to judge at this point, if you are trying to lose and making 0 attempt to win it sounds like a boring match. If playing your character involves fighting and there for winning its competitive, to whatever degree that is up to you.

You can paly your character but there is only winning or losing in a match at the end of the day. Are you trying to win or are you trying to lose. I'm im fighting someone and not really trying and playing my character in a rp sense or miming all their moves for fun I am still trying to hit them and there I'm trying to win the match even if I'm not giving it my all or really trying to get that result.

You can try to visualize it for now, since you know enough basics to get it.

My character takes a step forward. My opponent can't figure out how to safely attack, so I attack, I succeed.
At that point, I'm playing my character.

My opponent is now down, I pressure maybe. They don't know how best to defend, but they manage to keep blocking. I'm still playing my character. They try for a counterattack that I predicted and get hit.
Still playing my character.

My opponent decides that 'being close to me is a bad idea whether they are trying to hit me or defend', and then backdash. Six times. I walk forward. Keep walking. Opponent eventually gets to the corner, right?
I wasn't playing my character while walking forward, exactly, but once corner happens, I can do it a bit.

One of two things is about to happen. Still with me? If not, reread a bit above.

Either I'm going to attack them while they're in the corner and succeed, or I'm going to fail the attack and get knocked down. If I succeed enough times, I win. If I fail the attack and get knocked down, my opponent jumps over my character...

And starts backdashing again.

If I want to WIN the fight, I stop here, I can wait until I win by TimeOut. I don't want to Win. I want to FIGHT. I walk forward. And I attack. until either I fail all my attacks and lose, or succeed enough and win. But every time I fail an attack, and my opponent backdashes all the way back across the screen for 11 seconds, I am not playing my character.

If I can get OUT of this type of match faster by winning, I will win by TimeOut. Not because I want to win. Because if I'm up one round and I have a choice of 'winning Round 2 and ending the match' or 'my opponent backdashing for 2 more rounds until they win' (while I'm not getting to play), I should win the match so I can get to the next one. Because this will get me another chance to play my character.

There's never a point in that sequence where I am thinking "I am having a competition with this person."

They're not necessarily a bad player. They're not even necessarily a weak player. They have sometimes CORRECTLY concluded that the best way to WIN is to backdash and hope I mess up. They are 'competing'.

I am not.

Sounds like a fight to me but kind of over this debate on trying to win or not etc more interested in another question now. Who did you know on xbox?

~sighs~ The problem with being able to control people is that it's too easy to do it accidentally...

Just assume I don't know anyone on XBox SC6 if it will break this 'spell'. How best to do this... hmm...

"We don't play on XBox, serious fighting game players play on PS4 or PC where there's more competition."

That should be the right button, I think?

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

The pvpers are talking right now.

Oh, did I scare you?

Answer the question - What dictionary have you taken your understanding of the word "competitive" from?

Or are you unable to answer it?

I mean, we all know you are unable to answer it, I am just pushing for you to either attempt it, or admit that you cant.

Or you could attempt diversion tactics again, like the above.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

I wasn't striving to win anything, nor could I win/gain anything.

It wasn't an event or contest, because there was no reward for the actions we did.

And my target wasn't a competitor because there was no event to compete in.

So none of the realities of the situation fit the definition of a competition. But as I've said before, you could pose this as a psychological question of "whether I wanted to dominate my target", but that was never a conscious thought in my mind. You could say I thought that on a subconscious level, but at that point it'd become a philosophical question of "how does one define competition for themselves? is it a conscious thought or a state of being, no matter the attitude of the people participating in said "competition".

But under the dictionary definition of competition - it was not one.

I don't know how you post that and ignore the words in the definition.

"the activity or condition of competing:"

You are striving to beat them in a fight and go deeper tot he grind spot you want. If you are not striving to win the fight or care about it you would be indifferent and wouldn't have went to pvp with them to begin with. If you were not striving to win anything which means the battle you wouldn't have tried to do anything and let them kill you. It doesn't matter if you don't care if you win or lose your action to try to win is enough hence it is competitive.

You don't need to define competition for yourself you just go by the definition...After the battle you can judge their level of skill be it a competitive fight or not.

See, this is the thing you, as a non-elitist, can't grasp.

I can fight without trying to do the thing required to win the fight.

I can fight without caring whether I win or lose the fight. I can and do attack people without any interest in winning based on the game's system, sometimes it's just to gather data, sometimes it's just to test something, sometimes it's just a whim, sometimes I just feel like 'being my character' and that is a thing that happens whether I win or lose.

Now, granted, at least in some fighting games this either baffles my opponents or terrifies them, but the point is that I can just want to fight and that is a completely separate feeling and wish from wanting to or trying to WIN.

This is actually annoyingly common for me. If I fight an opponent and I overpower them in neutral and they start to back off and switch to 'bait and punish' tactics, I just stand there and stop blocking. I'll still attack them if I feel like it will lead to me 'getting to do the thing I like doing', but otherwise, they can have the match.

Is it still competitive if I get bored of winning and stop winning?

You can not care about winning or losing but still fight and it will be competitive. You can half ass it and try new things and mess around a bit which is still competitive.

If you really don't want to win and you do the same thing over and over again until you lose not caring and throw the game that isn't' competitive. I've maid this point before about killing lowbies or when you one shot someone, or if its a gank and its a for sure thing you win. If you are fighting someone bad and you can beat them easily with one hand its not really competitive either they simply don't understand the game so there is not much to fight about. Though competition does create growth and that could change if the person improves and that is the beauty of it and why it excels in direct pvp.

You're still not able to grasp it.

I'm not throwing the game, that's the conclusion that a non-elitist comes to.

To throw the game would mean that I was trying to WIN the game. I wasn't trying to win the game. I never 'changed to trying to win the game'. I was trying to 'play my character'.

My opponent 'running away' prevents me from playing my character. They run away because THEY are trying to win. So they 'stop me from playing my character' and they usually also 'stop playing their own character'.

I was never on the same plane of goals/thought as the opponent to start with. There was no competition. I JUST wanted to play my character and a human opponent happened to be the target. It just ALSO happens to be true that if a strong player faces me and truly believes they are going to win, they don't 'stop playing their own character' as often/as fast, so it looks competitive.

But from my end it's the same thing. I just want to fight, and my opponent happens to be human.

Honestly this point gets a bit weird, I can say you are making it confusing enough with lack of information. I'd have to see to judge at this point, if you are trying to lose and making 0 attempt to win it sounds like a boring match. If playing your character involves fighting and there for winning its competitive, to whatever degree that is up to you.

You can paly your character but there is only winning or losing in a match at the end of the day. Are you trying to win or are you trying to lose. I'm im fighting someone and not really trying and playing my character in a rp sense or miming all their moves for fun I am still trying to hit them and there I'm trying to win the match even if I'm not giving it my all or really trying to get that result.

You can try to visualize it for now, since you know enough basics to get it.

My character takes a step forward. My opponent can't figure out how to safely attack, so I attack, I succeed.
At that point, I'm playing my character.

My opponent is now down, I pressure maybe. They don't know how best to defend, but they manage to keep blocking. I'm still playing my character. They try for a counterattack that I predicted and get hit.
Still playing my character.

My opponent decides that 'being close to me is a bad idea whether they are trying to hit me or defend', and then backdash. Six times. I walk forward. Keep walking. Opponent eventually gets to the corner, right?
I wasn't playing my character while walking forward, exactly, but once corner happens, I can do it a bit.

One of two things is about to happen. Still with me? If not, reread a bit above.

Either I'm going to attack them while they're in the corner and succeed, or I'm going to fail the attack and get knocked down. If I succeed enough times, I win. If I fail the attack and get knocked down, my opponent jumps over my character...

And starts backdashing again.

If I want to WIN the fight, I stop here, I can wait until I win by TimeOut. I don't want to Win. I want to FIGHT. I walk forward. And I attack. until either I fail all my attacks and lose, or succeed enough and win. But every time I fail an attack, and my opponent backdashes all the way back across the screen for 11 seconds, I am not playing my character.

If I can get OUT of this type of match faster by winning, I will win by TimeOut. Not because I want to win. Because if I'm up one round and I have a choice of 'winning Round 2 and ending the match' or 'my opponent backdashing for 2 more rounds until they win' (while I'm not getting to play), I should win the match so I can get to the next one. Because this will get me another chance to play my character.

There's never a point in that sequence where I am thinking "I am having a competition with this person."

They're not necessarily a bad player. They're not even necessarily a weak player. They have sometimes CORRECTLY concluded that the best way to WIN is to backdash and hope I mess up. They are 'competing'.

I am not.

Sounds like a fight to me but kind of over this debate on trying to win or not etc more interested in another question now. Who did you know on xbox?

~sighs~ The problem with being able to control people is that it's too easy to do it accidentally...

Just assume I don't know anyone on XBox SC6 if it will break this 'spell'. How best to do this... hmm...

"We don't play on XBox, serious fighting game players play on PS4 or PC where there's more competition."

That should be the right button, I think?

My question still stands doesn't break anything that be boring do you know people from xbox or not? Also one being an elitist doesn't mean they are a top player its more of a mind set. Just sometimes people get a big head when they get to the top.

JamesSunderland

Woah, what a crazy long thread, it just keeps going and going always further away from the original topic, it was still interesting when it was still a good ol' Tab vs Action forum "PvP" but then it just kept derailing in extra random directions like ??definition of competitivity??

Seriously, reading those pages felt like watching a blindman randomly swing his arms around trying to counter elusive imaginary opponent's attacks he creates while getting his ankles bitten by a fox and never being able to reach the fox while it laughs and keeps bitting the exact same spots while another person yells: "Watch your ankles dude!" but it simple doesn't seem to reach his ears...

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

I wasn't striving to win anything, nor could I win/gain anything.

It wasn't an event or contest, because there was no reward for the actions we did.

And my target wasn't a competitor because there was no event to compete in.

So none of the realities of the situation fit the definition of a competition. But as I've said before, you could pose this as a psychological question of "whether I wanted to dominate my target", but that was never a conscious thought in my mind. You could say I thought that on a subconscious level, but at that point it'd become a philosophical question of "how does one define competition for themselves? is it a conscious thought or a state of being, no matter the attitude of the people participating in said "competition".

But under the dictionary definition of competition - it was not one.

I don't know how you post that and ignore the words in the definition.

"the activity or condition of competing:"

You are striving to beat them in a fight and go deeper tot he grind spot you want. If you are not striving to win the fight or care about it you would be indifferent and wouldn't have went to pvp with them to begin with. If you were not striving to win anything which means the battle you wouldn't have tried to do anything and let them kill you. It doesn't matter if you don't care if you win or lose your action to try to win is enough hence it is competitive.

You don't need to define competition for yourself you just go by the definition...After the battle you can judge their level of skill be it a competitive fight or not.

See, this is the thing you, as a non-elitist, can't grasp.

I can fight without trying to do the thing required to win the fight.

I can fight without caring whether I win or lose the fight. I can and do attack people without any interest in winning based on the game's system, sometimes it's just to gather data, sometimes it's just to test something, sometimes it's just a whim, sometimes I just feel like 'being my character' and that is a thing that happens whether I win or lose.

Now, granted, at least in some fighting games this either baffles my opponents or terrifies them, but the point is that I can just want to fight and that is a completely separate feeling and wish from wanting to or trying to WIN.

This is actually annoyingly common for me. If I fight an opponent and I overpower them in neutral and they start to back off and switch to 'bait and punish' tactics, I just stand there and stop blocking. I'll still attack them if I feel like it will lead to me 'getting to do the thing I like doing', but otherwise, they can have the match.

Is it still competitive if I get bored of winning and stop winning?

You can not care about winning or losing but still fight and it will be competitive. You can half ass it and try new things and mess around a bit which is still competitive.

If you really don't want to win and you do the same thing over and over again until you lose not caring and throw the game that isn't' competitive. I've maid this point before about killing lowbies or when you one shot someone, or if its a gank and its a for sure thing you win. If you are fighting someone bad and you can beat them easily with one hand its not really competitive either they simply don't understand the game so there is not much to fight about. Though competition does create growth and that could change if the person improves and that is the beauty of it and why it excels in direct pvp.

You're still not able to grasp it.

I'm not throwing the game, that's the conclusion that a non-elitist comes to.

To throw the game would mean that I was trying to WIN the game. I wasn't trying to win the game. I never 'changed to trying to win the game'. I was trying to 'play my character'.

My opponent 'running away' prevents me from playing my character. They run away because THEY are trying to win. So they 'stop me from playing my character' and they usually also 'stop playing their own character'.

I was never on the same plane of goals/thought as the opponent to start with. There was no competition. I JUST wanted to play my character and a human opponent happened to be the target. It just ALSO happens to be true that if a strong player faces me and truly believes they are going to win, they don't 'stop playing their own character' as often/as fast, so it looks competitive.

But from my end it's the same thing. I just want to fight, and my opponent happens to be human.

Honestly this point gets a bit weird, I can say you are making it confusing enough with lack of information. I'd have to see to judge at this point, if you are trying to lose and making 0 attempt to win it sounds like a boring match. If playing your character involves fighting and there for winning its competitive, to whatever degree that is up to you.

You can paly your character but there is only winning or losing in a match at the end of the day. Are you trying to win or are you trying to lose. I'm im fighting someone and not really trying and playing my character in a rp sense or miming all their moves for fun I am still trying to hit them and there I'm trying to win the match even if I'm not giving it my all or really trying to get that result.

You can try to visualize it for now, since you know enough basics to get it.

My character takes a step forward. My opponent can't figure out how to safely attack, so I attack, I succeed.
At that point, I'm playing my character.

My opponent is now down, I pressure maybe. They don't know how best to defend, but they manage to keep blocking. I'm still playing my character. They try for a counterattack that I predicted and get hit.
Still playing my character.

My opponent decides that 'being close to me is a bad idea whether they are trying to hit me or defend', and then backdash. Six times. I walk forward. Keep walking. Opponent eventually gets to the corner, right?
I wasn't playing my character while walking forward, exactly, but once corner happens, I can do it a bit.

One of two things is about to happen. Still with me? If not, reread a bit above.

Either I'm going to attack them while they're in the corner and succeed, or I'm going to fail the attack and get knocked down. If I succeed enough times, I win. If I fail the attack and get knocked down, my opponent jumps over my character...

And starts backdashing again.

If I want to WIN the fight, I stop here, I can wait until I win by TimeOut. I don't want to Win. I want to FIGHT. I walk forward. And I attack. until either I fail all my attacks and lose, or succeed enough and win. But every time I fail an attack, and my opponent backdashes all the way back across the screen for 11 seconds, I am not playing my character.

If I can get OUT of this type of match faster by winning, I will win by TimeOut. Not because I want to win. Because if I'm up one round and I have a choice of 'winning Round 2 and ending the match' or 'my opponent backdashing for 2 more rounds until they win' (while I'm not getting to play), I should win the match so I can get to the next one. Because this will get me another chance to play my character.

There's never a point in that sequence where I am thinking "I am having a competition with this person."

They're not necessarily a bad player. They're not even necessarily a weak player. They have sometimes CORRECTLY concluded that the best way to WIN is to backdash and hope I mess up. They are 'competing'.

I am not.

Sounds like a fight to me but kind of over this debate on trying to win or not etc more interested in another question now. Who did you know on xbox?

~sighs~ The problem with being able to control people is that it's too easy to do it accidentally...

Just assume I don't know anyone on XBox SC6 if it will break this 'spell'. How best to do this... hmm...

"We don't play on XBox, serious fighting game players play on PS4 or PC where there's more competition."

That should be the right button, I think?

My question still stands doesn't break anything that be boring do you know people from xbox or not? Also one being an elitist doesn't mean they are a top player its more of a mind set. Just sometimes people get a big head when they get to the top.

There we go, back to normal.

You should assume whatever truth is optimal for your existence. I play Fighting Games on PS4, the only time I come into contact with the XBox players is at [Local Fighting Game Tournament].

I'm not giving out anything that leads back to my location or life, just as I haven't and shouldn't give out any information that leads back to yours. This is not appropriate conversation for an open forum. The point I was making was only about my own friends and my own teammates and their understanding of 'what 15,000 RP on XBox means'.

You were E Rank at the time of that Screenshot, Mag. It is blatantly an XBox Screenshot. One does not need to even play Fighting Games to know that 'E Ranked 13,000 RP on XBox' is not 'Top 10 in the world'. The point is that you never really meant to say "I am one of the greatest Soul Calibur players in the world", you were saying "I am good enough at fighting games to show up on a Leaderboard".

You said this to elitists, some of whom (you can't see them, they're in my shadow right now lol) took you seriously for long enough to check some stuff.

No one is going to reveal anything personal about you, if that's what you're worried about.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

I wasn't striving to win anything, nor could I win/gain anything.

It wasn't an event or contest, because there was no reward for the actions we did.

And my target wasn't a competitor because there was no event to compete in.

So none of the realities of the situation fit the definition of a competition. But as I've said before, you could pose this as a psychological question of "whether I wanted to dominate my target", but that was never a conscious thought in my mind. You could say I thought that on a subconscious level, but at that point it'd become a philosophical question of "how does one define competition for themselves? is it a conscious thought or a state of being, no matter the attitude of the people participating in said "competition".

But under the dictionary definition of competition - it was not one.

I don't know how you post that and ignore the words in the definition.

"the activity or condition of competing:"

You are striving to beat them in a fight and go deeper tot he grind spot you want. If you are not striving to win the fight or care about it you would be indifferent and wouldn't have went to pvp with them to begin with. If you were not striving to win anything which means the battle you wouldn't have tried to do anything and let them kill you. It doesn't matter if you don't care if you win or lose your action to try to win is enough hence it is competitive.

You don't need to define competition for yourself you just go by the definition...After the battle you can judge their level of skill be it a competitive fight or not.

See, this is the thing you, as a non-elitist, can't grasp.

I can fight without trying to do the thing required to win the fight.

I can fight without caring whether I win or lose the fight. I can and do attack people without any interest in winning based on the game's system, sometimes it's just to gather data, sometimes it's just to test something, sometimes it's just a whim, sometimes I just feel like 'being my character' and that is a thing that happens whether I win or lose.

Now, granted, at least in some fighting games this either baffles my opponents or terrifies them, but the point is that I can just want to fight and that is a completely separate feeling and wish from wanting to or trying to WIN.

This is actually annoyingly common for me. If I fight an opponent and I overpower them in neutral and they start to back off and switch to 'bait and punish' tactics, I just stand there and stop blocking. I'll still attack them if I feel like it will lead to me 'getting to do the thing I like doing', but otherwise, they can have the match.

Is it still competitive if I get bored of winning and stop winning?

You can not care about winning or losing but still fight and it will be competitive. You can half ass it and try new things and mess around a bit which is still competitive.

If you really don't want to win and you do the same thing over and over again until you lose not caring and throw the game that isn't' competitive. I've maid this point before about killing lowbies or when you one shot someone, or if its a gank and its a for sure thing you win. If you are fighting someone bad and you can beat them easily with one hand its not really competitive either they simply don't understand the game so there is not much to fight about. Though competition does create growth and that could change if the person improves and that is the beauty of it and why it excels in direct pvp.

You're still not able to grasp it.

I'm not throwing the game, that's the conclusion that a non-elitist comes to.

To throw the game would mean that I was trying to WIN the game. I wasn't trying to win the game. I never 'changed to trying to win the game'. I was trying to 'play my character'.

My opponent 'running away' prevents me from playing my character. They run away because THEY are trying to win. So they 'stop me from playing my character' and they usually also 'stop playing their own character'.

I was never on the same plane of goals/thought as the opponent to start with. There was no competition. I JUST wanted to play my character and a human opponent happened to be the target. It just ALSO happens to be true that if a strong player faces me and truly believes they are going to win, they don't 'stop playing their own character' as often/as fast, so it looks competitive.

But from my end it's the same thing. I just want to fight, and my opponent happens to be human.

Honestly this point gets a bit weird, I can say you are making it confusing enough with lack of information. I'd have to see to judge at this point, if you are trying to lose and making 0 attempt to win it sounds like a boring match. If playing your character involves fighting and there for winning its competitive, to whatever degree that is up to you.

You can paly your character but there is only winning or losing in a match at the end of the day. Are you trying to win or are you trying to lose. I'm im fighting someone and not really trying and playing my character in a rp sense or miming all their moves for fun I am still trying to hit them and there I'm trying to win the match even if I'm not giving it my all or really trying to get that result.

You can try to visualize it for now, since you know enough basics to get it.

My character takes a step forward. My opponent can't figure out how to safely attack, so I attack, I succeed.
At that point, I'm playing my character.

My opponent is now down, I pressure maybe. They don't know how best to defend, but they manage to keep blocking. I'm still playing my character. They try for a counterattack that I predicted and get hit.
Still playing my character.

My opponent decides that 'being close to me is a bad idea whether they are trying to hit me or defend', and then backdash. Six times. I walk forward. Keep walking. Opponent eventually gets to the corner, right?
I wasn't playing my character while walking forward, exactly, but once corner happens, I can do it a bit.

One of two things is about to happen. Still with me? If not, reread a bit above.

Either I'm going to attack them while they're in the corner and succeed, or I'm going to fail the attack and get knocked down. If I succeed enough times, I win. If I fail the attack and get knocked down, my opponent jumps over my character...

And starts backdashing again.

If I want to WIN the fight, I stop here, I can wait until I win by TimeOut. I don't want to Win. I want to FIGHT. I walk forward. And I attack. until either I fail all my attacks and lose, or succeed enough and win. But every time I fail an attack, and my opponent backdashes all the way back across the screen for 11 seconds, I am not playing my character.

If I can get OUT of this type of match faster by winning, I will win by TimeOut. Not because I want to win. Because if I'm up one round and I have a choice of 'winning Round 2 and ending the match' or 'my opponent backdashing for 2 more rounds until they win' (while I'm not getting to play), I should win the match so I can get to the next one. Because this will get me another chance to play my character.

There's never a point in that sequence where I am thinking "I am having a competition with this person."

They're not necessarily a bad player. They're not even necessarily a weak player. They have sometimes CORRECTLY concluded that the best way to WIN is to backdash and hope I mess up. They are 'competing'.

I am not.

Sounds like a fight to me but kind of over this debate on trying to win or not etc more interested in another question now. Who did you know on xbox?

~sighs~ The problem with being able to control people is that it's too easy to do it accidentally...

Just assume I don't know anyone on XBox SC6 if it will break this 'spell'. How best to do this... hmm...

"We don't play on XBox, serious fighting game players play on PS4 or PC where there's more competition."

That should be the right button, I think?

My question still stands doesn't break anything that be boring do you know people from xbox or not? Also one being an elitist doesn't mean they are a top player its more of a mind set. Just sometimes people get a big head when they get to the top.

There we go, back to normal.

You should assume whatever truth is optimal for your existence. I play Fighting Games on PS4, the only time I come into contact with the XBox players is at [Local Fighting Game Tournament].

I'm not giving out anything that leads back to my location or life, just as I haven't and shouldn't give out any information that leads back to yours. This is not appropriate conversation for an open forum. The point I was making was only about my own friends and my own teammates and their understanding of 'what 15,000 RP on XBox means'.

You were E Rank at the time of that Screenshot, Mag. It is blatantly an XBox Screenshot. One does not need to even play Fighting Games to know that 'E Ranked 13,000 RP on XBox' is not 'Top 10 in the world'. The point is that you never really meant to say "I am one of the greatest Soul Calibur players in the world", you were saying "I am good enough at fighting games to show up on a Leaderboard".

You said this to elitists, some of whom (you can't see them, they're in my shadow right now lol) took you seriously for long enough to check some stuff.

No one is going to reveal anything personal about you, if that's what you're worried about.

Staying around top 10 isn't a walk in the park the start of soulcalibur ranking was different then how they changed it later to allow higher ranks to get alot more xp. Also you re making an assumption the was the only rank i got to around top 10.

I think you are reading into things way too much unsure where you are getting these thoughts of real life and people being worried. There shouldn't be anything to worry about of knowing people that play a game with their gamer tags?

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

I wasn't striving to win anything, nor could I win/gain anything.

It wasn't an event or contest, because there was no reward for the actions we did.

And my target wasn't a competitor because there was no event to compete in.

So none of the realities of the situation fit the definition of a competition. But as I've said before, you could pose this as a psychological question of "whether I wanted to dominate my target", but that was never a conscious thought in my mind. You could say I thought that on a subconscious level, but at that point it'd become a philosophical question of "how does one define competition for themselves? is it a conscious thought or a state of being, no matter the attitude of the people participating in said "competition".

But under the dictionary definition of competition - it was not one.

I don't know how you post that and ignore the words in the definition.

"the activity or condition of competing:"

You are striving to beat them in a fight and go deeper tot he grind spot you want. If you are not striving to win the fight or care about it you would be indifferent and wouldn't have went to pvp with them to begin with. If you were not striving to win anything which means the battle you wouldn't have tried to do anything and let them kill you. It doesn't matter if you don't care if you win or lose your action to try to win is enough hence it is competitive.

You don't need to define competition for yourself you just go by the definition...After the battle you can judge their level of skill be it a competitive fight or not.

See, this is the thing you, as a non-elitist, can't grasp.

I can fight without trying to do the thing required to win the fight.

I can fight without caring whether I win or lose the fight. I can and do attack people without any interest in winning based on the game's system, sometimes it's just to gather data, sometimes it's just to test something, sometimes it's just a whim, sometimes I just feel like 'being my character' and that is a thing that happens whether I win or lose.

Now, granted, at least in some fighting games this either baffles my opponents or terrifies them, but the point is that I can just want to fight and that is a completely separate feeling and wish from wanting to or trying to WIN.

This is actually annoyingly common for me. If I fight an opponent and I overpower them in neutral and they start to back off and switch to 'bait and punish' tactics, I just stand there and stop blocking. I'll still attack them if I feel like it will lead to me 'getting to do the thing I like doing', but otherwise, they can have the match.

Is it still competitive if I get bored of winning and stop winning?

You can not care about winning or losing but still fight and it will be competitive. You can half ass it and try new things and mess around a bit which is still competitive.

If you really don't want to win and you do the same thing over and over again until you lose not caring and throw the game that isn't' competitive. I've maid this point before about killing lowbies or when you one shot someone, or if its a gank and its a for sure thing you win. If you are fighting someone bad and you can beat them easily with one hand its not really competitive either they simply don't understand the game so there is not much to fight about. Though competition does create growth and that could change if the person improves and that is the beauty of it and why it excels in direct pvp.

You're still not able to grasp it.

I'm not throwing the game, that's the conclusion that a non-elitist comes to.

To throw the game would mean that I was trying to WIN the game. I wasn't trying to win the game. I never 'changed to trying to win the game'. I was trying to 'play my character'.

My opponent 'running away' prevents me from playing my character. They run away because THEY are trying to win. So they 'stop me from playing my character' and they usually also 'stop playing their own character'.

I was never on the same plane of goals/thought as the opponent to start with. There was no competition. I JUST wanted to play my character and a human opponent happened to be the target. It just ALSO happens to be true that if a strong player faces me and truly believes they are going to win, they don't 'stop playing their own character' as often/as fast, so it looks competitive.

But from my end it's the same thing. I just want to fight, and my opponent happens to be human.

Honestly this point gets a bit weird, I can say you are making it confusing enough with lack of information. I'd have to see to judge at this point, if you are trying to lose and making 0 attempt to win it sounds like a boring match. If playing your character involves fighting and there for winning its competitive, to whatever degree that is up to you.

You can paly your character but there is only winning or losing in a match at the end of the day. Are you trying to win or are you trying to lose. I'm im fighting someone and not really trying and playing my character in a rp sense or miming all their moves for fun I am still trying to hit them and there I'm trying to win the match even if I'm not giving it my all or really trying to get that result.

You can try to visualize it for now, since you know enough basics to get it.

My character takes a step forward. My opponent can't figure out how to safely attack, so I attack, I succeed.
At that point, I'm playing my character.

My opponent is now down, I pressure maybe. They don't know how best to defend, but they manage to keep blocking. I'm still playing my character. They try for a counterattack that I predicted and get hit.
Still playing my character.

My opponent decides that 'being close to me is a bad idea whether they are trying to hit me or defend', and then backdash. Six times. I walk forward. Keep walking. Opponent eventually gets to the corner, right?
I wasn't playing my character while walking forward, exactly, but once corner happens, I can do it a bit.

One of two things is about to happen. Still with me? If not, reread a bit above.

Either I'm going to attack them while they're in the corner and succeed, or I'm going to fail the attack and get knocked down. If I succeed enough times, I win. If I fail the attack and get knocked down, my opponent jumps over my character...

And starts backdashing again.

If I want to WIN the fight, I stop here, I can wait until I win by TimeOut. I don't want to Win. I want to FIGHT. I walk forward. And I attack. until either I fail all my attacks and lose, or succeed enough and win. But every time I fail an attack, and my opponent backdashes all the way back across the screen for 11 seconds, I am not playing my character.

If I can get OUT of this type of match faster by winning, I will win by TimeOut. Not because I want to win. Because if I'm up one round and I have a choice of 'winning Round 2 and ending the match' or 'my opponent backdashing for 2 more rounds until they win' (while I'm not getting to play), I should win the match so I can get to the next one. Because this will get me another chance to play my character.

There's never a point in that sequence where I am thinking "I am having a competition with this person."

They're not necessarily a bad player. They're not even necessarily a weak player. They have sometimes CORRECTLY concluded that the best way to WIN is to backdash and hope I mess up. They are 'competing'.

I am not.

Sounds like a fight to me but kind of over this debate on trying to win or not etc more interested in another question now. Who did you know on xbox?

~sighs~ The problem with being able to control people is that it's too easy to do it accidentally...

Just assume I don't know anyone on XBox SC6 if it will break this 'spell'. How best to do this... hmm...

"We don't play on XBox, serious fighting game players play on PS4 or PC where there's more competition."

That should be the right button, I think?

My question still stands doesn't break anything that be boring do you know people from xbox or not? Also one being an elitist doesn't mean they are a top player its more of a mind set. Just sometimes people get a big head when they get to the top.

There we go, back to normal.

You should assume whatever truth is optimal for your existence. I play Fighting Games on PS4, the only time I come into contact with the XBox players is at [Local Fighting Game Tournament].

I'm not giving out anything that leads back to my location or life, just as I haven't and shouldn't give out any information that leads back to yours. This is not appropriate conversation for an open forum. The point I was making was only about my own friends and my own teammates and their understanding of 'what 15,000 RP on XBox means'.

You were E Rank at the time of that Screenshot, Mag. It is blatantly an XBox Screenshot. One does not need to even play Fighting Games to know that 'E Ranked 13,000 RP on XBox' is not 'Top 10 in the world'. The point is that you never really meant to say "I am one of the greatest Soul Calibur players in the world", you were saying "I am good enough at fighting games to show up on a Leaderboard".

You said this to elitists, some of whom (you can't see them, they're in my shadow right now lol) took you seriously for long enough to check some stuff.

No one is going to reveal anything personal about you, if that's what you're worried about.

Staying around top 10 isn't a walk in the park the start of soulcalibur ranking was different then how they changed it later to allow higher ranks to get alot more xp. Also you re making an assumption the was the only rank i got to around top 10.

I think you are reading into things way too much unsure where you are getting these thoughts of real life and people being worried. There shouldn't be anything to worry about of knowing people that play a game with their gamer tags?

If I tell someone "I was hanging out with Idom at NLBC like I usually do", that person can fairly easily know approximately where I live or literally where to find me at a certain time.

Just like the fact that you posting that specific screenshot tells me that you are an XBox player and your matches and your way of speaking tell me a bunch of other things.

Well known top players don't have privacy the same way, but they don't need it either.

I'm glad that I misunderstood your concern. I make no assumptions about your potential higher ranks, if you consider them important to discuss, I'm sure you'll mention them and bring more 'receipts'. I only noted that your 'proof' that you were Top 10 is a screenshot of a time when the highest rank was D.

Unless you are Linkorz, I don't care, and if you ARE Linkorz... why are we even having this conversation, man? Shouldn't the situation be more obvious?

Noaani

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Seriously, reading those pages felt like watching a blindman randomly swing his arms around trying to counter elusive imaginary opponent's attacks he creates while getting his ankles bitten by a fox and never being able to reach the fox while it laughs and keeps bitting the exact same spots while another person yells: "Watch your ankles dude!" but it simple doesn't seem to reach his ears...

Best description of this - or any - thread, ever.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

I wasn't striving to win anything, nor could I win/gain anything.

It wasn't an event or contest, because there was no reward for the actions we did.

And my target wasn't a competitor because there was no event to compete in.

So none of the realities of the situation fit the definition of a competition. But as I've said before, you could pose this as a psychological question of "whether I wanted to dominate my target", but that was never a conscious thought in my mind. You could say I thought that on a subconscious level, but at that point it'd become a philosophical question of "how does one define competition for themselves? is it a conscious thought or a state of being, no matter the attitude of the people participating in said "competition".

But under the dictionary definition of competition - it was not one.

I don't know how you post that and ignore the words in the definition.

"the activity or condition of competing:"

You are striving to beat them in a fight and go deeper tot he grind spot you want. If you are not striving to win the fight or care about it you would be indifferent and wouldn't have went to pvp with them to begin with. If you were not striving to win anything which means the battle you wouldn't have tried to do anything and let them kill you. It doesn't matter if you don't care if you win or lose your action to try to win is enough hence it is competitive.

You don't need to define competition for yourself you just go by the definition...After the battle you can judge their level of skill be it a competitive fight or not.

See, this is the thing you, as a non-elitist, can't grasp.

I can fight without trying to do the thing required to win the fight.

I can fight without caring whether I win or lose the fight. I can and do attack people without any interest in winning based on the game's system, sometimes it's just to gather data, sometimes it's just to test something, sometimes it's just a whim, sometimes I just feel like 'being my character' and that is a thing that happens whether I win or lose.

Now, granted, at least in some fighting games this either baffles my opponents or terrifies them, but the point is that I can just want to fight and that is a completely separate feeling and wish from wanting to or trying to WIN.

This is actually annoyingly common for me. If I fight an opponent and I overpower them in neutral and they start to back off and switch to 'bait and punish' tactics, I just stand there and stop blocking. I'll still attack them if I feel like it will lead to me 'getting to do the thing I like doing', but otherwise, they can have the match.

Is it still competitive if I get bored of winning and stop winning?

You can not care about winning or losing but still fight and it will be competitive. You can half ass it and try new things and mess around a bit which is still competitive.

If you really don't want to win and you do the same thing over and over again until you lose not caring and throw the game that isn't' competitive. I've maid this point before about killing lowbies or when you one shot someone, or if its a gank and its a for sure thing you win. If you are fighting someone bad and you can beat them easily with one hand its not really competitive either they simply don't understand the game so there is not much to fight about. Though competition does create growth and that could change if the person improves and that is the beauty of it and why it excels in direct pvp.

You're still not able to grasp it.

I'm not throwing the game, that's the conclusion that a non-elitist comes to.

To throw the game would mean that I was trying to WIN the game. I wasn't trying to win the game. I never 'changed to trying to win the game'. I was trying to 'play my character'.

My opponent 'running away' prevents me from playing my character. They run away because THEY are trying to win. So they 'stop me from playing my character' and they usually also 'stop playing their own character'.

I was never on the same plane of goals/thought as the opponent to start with. There was no competition. I JUST wanted to play my character and a human opponent happened to be the target. It just ALSO happens to be true that if a strong player faces me and truly believes they are going to win, they don't 'stop playing their own character' as often/as fast, so it looks competitive.

But from my end it's the same thing. I just want to fight, and my opponent happens to be human.

Honestly this point gets a bit weird, I can say you are making it confusing enough with lack of information. I'd have to see to judge at this point, if you are trying to lose and making 0 attempt to win it sounds like a boring match. If playing your character involves fighting and there for winning its competitive, to whatever degree that is up to you.

You can paly your character but there is only winning or losing in a match at the end of the day. Are you trying to win or are you trying to lose. I'm im fighting someone and not really trying and playing my character in a rp sense or miming all their moves for fun I am still trying to hit them and there I'm trying to win the match even if I'm not giving it my all or really trying to get that result.

You can try to visualize it for now, since you know enough basics to get it.

My character takes a step forward. My opponent can't figure out how to safely attack, so I attack, I succeed.
At that point, I'm playing my character.

My opponent is now down, I pressure maybe. They don't know how best to defend, but they manage to keep blocking. I'm still playing my character. They try for a counterattack that I predicted and get hit.
Still playing my character.

My opponent decides that 'being close to me is a bad idea whether they are trying to hit me or defend', and then backdash. Six times. I walk forward. Keep walking. Opponent eventually gets to the corner, right?
I wasn't playing my character while walking forward, exactly, but once corner happens, I can do it a bit.

One of two things is about to happen. Still with me? If not, reread a bit above.

Either I'm going to attack them while they're in the corner and succeed, or I'm going to fail the attack and get knocked down. If I succeed enough times, I win. If I fail the attack and get knocked down, my opponent jumps over my character...

And starts backdashing again.

If I want to WIN the fight, I stop here, I can wait until I win by TimeOut. I don't want to Win. I want to FIGHT. I walk forward. And I attack. until either I fail all my attacks and lose, or succeed enough and win. But every time I fail an attack, and my opponent backdashes all the way back across the screen for 11 seconds, I am not playing my character.

If I can get OUT of this type of match faster by winning, I will win by TimeOut. Not because I want to win. Because if I'm up one round and I have a choice of 'winning Round 2 and ending the match' or 'my opponent backdashing for 2 more rounds until they win' (while I'm not getting to play), I should win the match so I can get to the next one. Because this will get me another chance to play my character.

There's never a point in that sequence where I am thinking "I am having a competition with this person."

They're not necessarily a bad player. They're not even necessarily a weak player. They have sometimes CORRECTLY concluded that the best way to WIN is to backdash and hope I mess up. They are 'competing'.

I am not.

Sounds like a fight to me but kind of over this debate on trying to win or not etc more interested in another question now. Who did you know on xbox?

~sighs~ The problem with being able to control people is that it's too easy to do it accidentally...

Just assume I don't know anyone on XBox SC6 if it will break this 'spell'. How best to do this... hmm...

"We don't play on XBox, serious fighting game players play on PS4 or PC where there's more competition."

That should be the right button, I think?

My question still stands doesn't break anything that be boring do you know people from xbox or not? Also one being an elitist doesn't mean they are a top player its more of a mind set. Just sometimes people get a big head when they get to the top.

There we go, back to normal.

You should assume whatever truth is optimal for your existence. I play Fighting Games on PS4, the only time I come into contact with the XBox players is at [Local Fighting Game Tournament].

I'm not giving out anything that leads back to my location or life, just as I haven't and shouldn't give out any information that leads back to yours. This is not appropriate conversation for an open forum. The point I was making was only about my own friends and my own teammates and their understanding of 'what 15,000 RP on XBox means'.

You were E Rank at the time of that Screenshot, Mag. It is blatantly an XBox Screenshot. One does not need to even play Fighting Games to know that 'E Ranked 13,000 RP on XBox' is not 'Top 10 in the world'. The point is that you never really meant to say "I am one of the greatest Soul Calibur players in the world", you were saying "I am good enough at fighting games to show up on a Leaderboard".

You said this to elitists, some of whom (you can't see them, they're in my shadow right now lol) took you seriously for long enough to check some stuff.

No one is going to reveal anything personal about you, if that's what you're worried about.

Staying around top 10 isn't a walk in the park the start of soulcalibur ranking was different then how they changed it later to allow higher ranks to get alot more xp. Also you re making an assumption the was the only rank i got to around top 10.

I think you are reading into things way too much unsure where you are getting these thoughts of real life and people being worried. There shouldn't be anything to worry about of knowing people that play a game with their gamer tags?

If I tell someone "I was hanging out with Idom at NLBC like I usually do", that person can fairly easily know approximately where I live or literally where to find me at a certain time.

Just like the fact that you posting that specific screenshot tells me that you are an XBox player and your matches and your way of speaking tell me a bunch of other things.

Well known top players don't have privacy the same way, but they don't need it either.

I'm glad that I misunderstood your concern. I make no assumptions about your potential higher ranks, if you consider them important to discuss, I'm sure you'll mention them and bring more 'receipts'. I only noted that your 'proof' that you were Top 10 is a screenshot of a time when the highest rank was D.

Unless you are Linkorz, I don't care, and if you ARE Linkorz... why are we even having this conversation, man? Shouldn't the situation be more obvious?

It is pretty clear there is a difference is the reason why and you are assuming only based on the amount you know xD. You don't need to say where you are hanging out I simply asked you if yuo knew at of the top people on xbox from that time. You don't need to say where you met them lmao.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

I wasn't striving to win anything, nor could I win/gain anything.

It wasn't an event or contest, because there was no reward for the actions we did.

And my target wasn't a competitor because there was no event to compete in.

So none of the realities of the situation fit the definition of a competition. But as I've said before, you could pose this as a psychological question of "whether I wanted to dominate my target", but that was never a conscious thought in my mind. You could say I thought that on a subconscious level, but at that point it'd become a philosophical question of "how does one define competition for themselves? is it a conscious thought or a state of being, no matter the attitude of the people participating in said "competition".

But under the dictionary definition of competition - it was not one.

I don't know how you post that and ignore the words in the definition.

"the activity or condition of competing:"

You are striving to beat them in a fight and go deeper tot he grind spot you want. If you are not striving to win the fight or care about it you would be indifferent and wouldn't have went to pvp with them to begin with. If you were not striving to win anything which means the battle you wouldn't have tried to do anything and let them kill you. It doesn't matter if you don't care if you win or lose your action to try to win is enough hence it is competitive.

You don't need to define competition for yourself you just go by the definition...After the battle you can judge their level of skill be it a competitive fight or not.

See, this is the thing you, as a non-elitist, can't grasp.

I can fight without trying to do the thing required to win the fight.

I can fight without caring whether I win or lose the fight. I can and do attack people without any interest in winning based on the game's system, sometimes it's just to gather data, sometimes it's just to test something, sometimes it's just a whim, sometimes I just feel like 'being my character' and that is a thing that happens whether I win or lose.

Now, granted, at least in some fighting games this either baffles my opponents or terrifies them, but the point is that I can just want to fight and that is a completely separate feeling and wish from wanting to or trying to WIN.

This is actually annoyingly common for me. If I fight an opponent and I overpower them in neutral and they start to back off and switch to 'bait and punish' tactics, I just stand there and stop blocking. I'll still attack them if I feel like it will lead to me 'getting to do the thing I like doing', but otherwise, they can have the match.

Is it still competitive if I get bored of winning and stop winning?

You can not care about winning or losing but still fight and it will be competitive. You can half ass it and try new things and mess around a bit which is still competitive.

If you really don't want to win and you do the same thing over and over again until you lose not caring and throw the game that isn't' competitive. I've maid this point before about killing lowbies or when you one shot someone, or if its a gank and its a for sure thing you win. If you are fighting someone bad and you can beat them easily with one hand its not really competitive either they simply don't understand the game so there is not much to fight about. Though competition does create growth and that could change if the person improves and that is the beauty of it and why it excels in direct pvp.

You're still not able to grasp it.

I'm not throwing the game, that's the conclusion that a non-elitist comes to.

To throw the game would mean that I was trying to WIN the game. I wasn't trying to win the game. I never 'changed to trying to win the game'. I was trying to 'play my character'.

My opponent 'running away' prevents me from playing my character. They run away because THEY are trying to win. So they 'stop me from playing my character' and they usually also 'stop playing their own character'.

I was never on the same plane of goals/thought as the opponent to start with. There was no competition. I JUST wanted to play my character and a human opponent happened to be the target. It just ALSO happens to be true that if a strong player faces me and truly believes they are going to win, they don't 'stop playing their own character' as often/as fast, so it looks competitive.

But from my end it's the same thing. I just want to fight, and my opponent happens to be human.

Honestly this point gets a bit weird, I can say you are making it confusing enough with lack of information. I'd have to see to judge at this point, if you are trying to lose and making 0 attempt to win it sounds like a boring match. If playing your character involves fighting and there for winning its competitive, to whatever degree that is up to you.

You can paly your character but there is only winning or losing in a match at the end of the day. Are you trying to win or are you trying to lose. I'm im fighting someone and not really trying and playing my character in a rp sense or miming all their moves for fun I am still trying to hit them and there I'm trying to win the match even if I'm not giving it my all or really trying to get that result.

You can try to visualize it for now, since you know enough basics to get it.

My character takes a step forward. My opponent can't figure out how to safely attack, so I attack, I succeed.
At that point, I'm playing my character.

My opponent is now down, I pressure maybe. They don't know how best to defend, but they manage to keep blocking. I'm still playing my character. They try for a counterattack that I predicted and get hit.
Still playing my character.

My opponent decides that 'being close to me is a bad idea whether they are trying to hit me or defend', and then backdash. Six times. I walk forward. Keep walking. Opponent eventually gets to the corner, right?
I wasn't playing my character while walking forward, exactly, but once corner happens, I can do it a bit.

One of two things is about to happen. Still with me? If not, reread a bit above.

Either I'm going to attack them while they're in the corner and succeed, or I'm going to fail the attack and get knocked down. If I succeed enough times, I win. If I fail the attack and get knocked down, my opponent jumps over my character...

And starts backdashing again.

If I want to WIN the fight, I stop here, I can wait until I win by TimeOut. I don't want to Win. I want to FIGHT. I walk forward. And I attack. until either I fail all my attacks and lose, or succeed enough and win. But every time I fail an attack, and my opponent backdashes all the way back across the screen for 11 seconds, I am not playing my character.

If I can get OUT of this type of match faster by winning, I will win by TimeOut. Not because I want to win. Because if I'm up one round and I have a choice of 'winning Round 2 and ending the match' or 'my opponent backdashing for 2 more rounds until they win' (while I'm not getting to play), I should win the match so I can get to the next one. Because this will get me another chance to play my character.

There's never a point in that sequence where I am thinking "I am having a competition with this person."

They're not necessarily a bad player. They're not even necessarily a weak player. They have sometimes CORRECTLY concluded that the best way to WIN is to backdash and hope I mess up. They are 'competing'.

I am not.

Sounds like a fight to me but kind of over this debate on trying to win or not etc more interested in another question now. Who did you know on xbox?

~sighs~ The problem with being able to control people is that it's too easy to do it accidentally...

Just assume I don't know anyone on XBox SC6 if it will break this 'spell'. How best to do this... hmm...

"We don't play on XBox, serious fighting game players play on PS4 or PC where there's more competition."

That should be the right button, I think?

My question still stands doesn't break anything that be boring do you know people from xbox or not? Also one being an elitist doesn't mean they are a top player its more of a mind set. Just sometimes people get a big head when they get to the top.

There we go, back to normal.

You should assume whatever truth is optimal for your existence. I play Fighting Games on PS4, the only time I come into contact with the XBox players is at [Local Fighting Game Tournament].

I'm not giving out anything that leads back to my location or life, just as I haven't and shouldn't give out any information that leads back to yours. This is not appropriate conversation for an open forum. The point I was making was only about my own friends and my own teammates and their understanding of 'what 15,000 RP on XBox means'.

You were E Rank at the time of that Screenshot, Mag. It is blatantly an XBox Screenshot. One does not need to even play Fighting Games to know that 'E Ranked 13,000 RP on XBox' is not 'Top 10 in the world'. The point is that you never really meant to say "I am one of the greatest Soul Calibur players in the world", you were saying "I am good enough at fighting games to show up on a Leaderboard".

You said this to elitists, some of whom (you can't see them, they're in my shadow right now lol) took you seriously for long enough to check some stuff.

No one is going to reveal anything personal about you, if that's what you're worried about.

Staying around top 10 isn't a walk in the park the start of soulcalibur ranking was different then how they changed it later to allow higher ranks to get alot more xp. Also you re making an assumption the was the only rank i got to around top 10.

I think you are reading into things way too much unsure where you are getting these thoughts of real life and people being worried. There shouldn't be anything to worry about of knowing people that play a game with their gamer tags?

If I tell someone "I was hanging out with Idom at NLBC like I usually do", that person can fairly easily know approximately where I live or literally where to find me at a certain time.

Just like the fact that you posting that specific screenshot tells me that you are an XBox player and your matches and your way of speaking tell me a bunch of other things.

Well known top players don't have privacy the same way, but they don't need it either.

I'm glad that I misunderstood your concern. I make no assumptions about your potential higher ranks, if you consider them important to discuss, I'm sure you'll mention them and bring more 'receipts'. I only noted that your 'proof' that you were Top 10 is a screenshot of a time when the highest rank was D.

Unless you are Linkorz, I don't care, and if you ARE Linkorz... why are we even having this conversation, man? Shouldn't the situation be more obvious?

It is pretty clear there is a difference is the reason why and you are assuming only based on the amount you know xD. You don't need to say where you are hanging out I simply asked you if yuo knew at of the top people on xbox from that time. You don't need to say where you met them lmao.

Have you ever noticed, perhaps, that your screenshot shows the region and chosen language of the player alongside their other stuff? I would ask if you know/understand how fighting games get your match location data, but maybe you've never seen the SFV screen for it?

I suggest you go look it up, maybe you'll understand better.

Anyways, I'm gonna call this whole bit off. It's best for you to believe that I know no players. Believe that I'm just randomly messing with you or something.

If you are the sort of person I think you are, this will bring you the most peace. If you are not, it won't matter. Totally my fault for trying to explain things in the way I did.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

I wasn't striving to win anything, nor could I win/gain anything.

It wasn't an event or contest, because there was no reward for the actions we did.

And my target wasn't a competitor because there was no event to compete in.

So none of the realities of the situation fit the definition of a competition. But as I've said before, you could pose this as a psychological question of "whether I wanted to dominate my target", but that was never a conscious thought in my mind. You could say I thought that on a subconscious level, but at that point it'd become a philosophical question of "how does one define competition for themselves? is it a conscious thought or a state of being, no matter the attitude of the people participating in said "competition".

But under the dictionary definition of competition - it was not one.

I don't know how you post that and ignore the words in the definition.

"the activity or condition of competing:"

You are striving to beat them in a fight and go deeper tot he grind spot you want. If you are not striving to win the fight or care about it you would be indifferent and wouldn't have went to pvp with them to begin with. If you were not striving to win anything which means the battle you wouldn't have tried to do anything and let them kill you. It doesn't matter if you don't care if you win or lose your action to try to win is enough hence it is competitive.

You don't need to define competition for yourself you just go by the definition...After the battle you can judge their level of skill be it a competitive fight or not.

See, this is the thing you, as a non-elitist, can't grasp.

I can fight without trying to do the thing required to win the fight.

I can fight without caring whether I win or lose the fight. I can and do attack people without any interest in winning based on the game's system, sometimes it's just to gather data, sometimes it's just to test something, sometimes it's just a whim, sometimes I just feel like 'being my character' and that is a thing that happens whether I win or lose.

Now, granted, at least in some fighting games this either baffles my opponents or terrifies them, but the point is that I can just want to fight and that is a completely separate feeling and wish from wanting to or trying to WIN.

This is actually annoyingly common for me. If I fight an opponent and I overpower them in neutral and they start to back off and switch to 'bait and punish' tactics, I just stand there and stop blocking. I'll still attack them if I feel like it will lead to me 'getting to do the thing I like doing', but otherwise, they can have the match.

Is it still competitive if I get bored of winning and stop winning?

You can not care about winning or losing but still fight and it will be competitive. You can half ass it and try new things and mess around a bit which is still competitive.

If you really don't want to win and you do the same thing over and over again until you lose not caring and throw the game that isn't' competitive. I've maid this point before about killing lowbies or when you one shot someone, or if its a gank and its a for sure thing you win. If you are fighting someone bad and you can beat them easily with one hand its not really competitive either they simply don't understand the game so there is not much to fight about. Though competition does create growth and that could change if the person improves and that is the beauty of it and why it excels in direct pvp.

You're still not able to grasp it.

I'm not throwing the game, that's the conclusion that a non-elitist comes to.

To throw the game would mean that I was trying to WIN the game. I wasn't trying to win the game. I never 'changed to trying to win the game'. I was trying to 'play my character'.

My opponent 'running away' prevents me from playing my character. They run away because THEY are trying to win. So they 'stop me from playing my character' and they usually also 'stop playing their own character'.

I was never on the same plane of goals/thought as the opponent to start with. There was no competition. I JUST wanted to play my character and a human opponent happened to be the target. It just ALSO happens to be true that if a strong player faces me and truly believes they are going to win, they don't 'stop playing their own character' as often/as fast, so it looks competitive.

But from my end it's the same thing. I just want to fight, and my opponent happens to be human.

Honestly this point gets a bit weird, I can say you are making it confusing enough with lack of information. I'd have to see to judge at this point, if you are trying to lose and making 0 attempt to win it sounds like a boring match. If playing your character involves fighting and there for winning its competitive, to whatever degree that is up to you.

You can paly your character but there is only winning or losing in a match at the end of the day. Are you trying to win or are you trying to lose. I'm im fighting someone and not really trying and playing my character in a rp sense or miming all their moves for fun I am still trying to hit them and there I'm trying to win the match even if I'm not giving it my all or really trying to get that result.

You can try to visualize it for now, since you know enough basics to get it.

My character takes a step forward. My opponent can't figure out how to safely attack, so I attack, I succeed.
At that point, I'm playing my character.

My opponent is now down, I pressure maybe. They don't know how best to defend, but they manage to keep blocking. I'm still playing my character. They try for a counterattack that I predicted and get hit.
Still playing my character.

My opponent decides that 'being close to me is a bad idea whether they are trying to hit me or defend', and then backdash. Six times. I walk forward. Keep walking. Opponent eventually gets to the corner, right?
I wasn't playing my character while walking forward, exactly, but once corner happens, I can do it a bit.

One of two things is about to happen. Still with me? If not, reread a bit above.

Either I'm going to attack them while they're in the corner and succeed, or I'm going to fail the attack and get knocked down. If I succeed enough times, I win. If I fail the attack and get knocked down, my opponent jumps over my character...

And starts backdashing again.

If I want to WIN the fight, I stop here, I can wait until I win by TimeOut. I don't want to Win. I want to FIGHT. I walk forward. And I attack. until either I fail all my attacks and lose, or succeed enough and win. But every time I fail an attack, and my opponent backdashes all the way back across the screen for 11 seconds, I am not playing my character.

If I can get OUT of this type of match faster by winning, I will win by TimeOut. Not because I want to win. Because if I'm up one round and I have a choice of 'winning Round 2 and ending the match' or 'my opponent backdashing for 2 more rounds until they win' (while I'm not getting to play), I should win the match so I can get to the next one. Because this will get me another chance to play my character.

There's never a point in that sequence where I am thinking "I am having a competition with this person."

They're not necessarily a bad player. They're not even necessarily a weak player. They have sometimes CORRECTLY concluded that the best way to WIN is to backdash and hope I mess up. They are 'competing'.

I am not.

Sounds like a fight to me but kind of over this debate on trying to win or not etc more interested in another question now. Who did you know on xbox?

~sighs~ The problem with being able to control people is that it's too easy to do it accidentally...

Just assume I don't know anyone on XBox SC6 if it will break this 'spell'. How best to do this... hmm...

"We don't play on XBox, serious fighting game players play on PS4 or PC where there's more competition."

That should be the right button, I think?

My question still stands doesn't break anything that be boring do you know people from xbox or not? Also one being an elitist doesn't mean they are a top player its more of a mind set. Just sometimes people get a big head when they get to the top.

There we go, back to normal.

You should assume whatever truth is optimal for your existence. I play Fighting Games on PS4, the only time I come into contact with the XBox players is at [Local Fighting Game Tournament].

I'm not giving out anything that leads back to my location or life, just as I haven't and shouldn't give out any information that leads back to yours. This is not appropriate conversation for an open forum. The point I was making was only about my own friends and my own teammates and their understanding of 'what 15,000 RP on XBox means'.

You were E Rank at the time of that Screenshot, Mag. It is blatantly an XBox Screenshot. One does not need to even play Fighting Games to know that 'E Ranked 13,000 RP on XBox' is not 'Top 10 in the world'. The point is that you never really meant to say "I am one of the greatest Soul Calibur players in the world", you were saying "I am good enough at fighting games to show up on a Leaderboard".

You said this to elitists, some of whom (you can't see them, they're in my shadow right now lol) took you seriously for long enough to check some stuff.

No one is going to reveal anything personal about you, if that's what you're worried about.

Staying around top 10 isn't a walk in the park the start of soulcalibur ranking was different then how they changed it later to allow higher ranks to get alot more xp. Also you re making an assumption the was the only rank i got to around top 10.

I think you are reading into things way too much unsure where you are getting these thoughts of real life and people being worried. There shouldn't be anything to worry about of knowing people that play a game with their gamer tags?

If I tell someone "I was hanging out with Idom at NLBC like I usually do", that person can fairly easily know approximately where I live or literally where to find me at a certain time.

Just like the fact that you posting that specific screenshot tells me that you are an XBox player and your matches and your way of speaking tell me a bunch of other things.

Well known top players don't have privacy the same way, but they don't need it either.

I'm glad that I misunderstood your concern. I make no assumptions about your potential higher ranks, if you consider them important to discuss, I'm sure you'll mention them and bring more 'receipts'. I only noted that your 'proof' that you were Top 10 is a screenshot of a time when the highest rank was D.

Unless you are Linkorz, I don't care, and if you ARE Linkorz... why are we even having this conversation, man? Shouldn't the situation be more obvious?

It is pretty clear there is a difference is the reason why and you are assuming only based on the amount you know xD. You don't need to say where you are hanging out I simply asked you if yuo knew at of the top people on xbox from that time. You don't need to say where you met them lmao.

Have you ever noticed, perhaps, that your screenshot shows the region and chosen language of the player alongside their other stuff? I would ask if you know/understand how fighting games get your match location data, but maybe you've never seen the SFV screen for it?

I suggest you go look it up, maybe you'll understand better.

Anyways, I'm gonna call this whole bit off. It's best for you to believe that I know no players. Believe that I'm just randomly messing with you or something.

If you are the sort of person I think you are, this will bring you the most peace. If you are not, it won't matter. Totally my fault for trying to explain things in the way I did.

Naa its just boring if you are interesting and know people it might be more fun to talk about. I'm going to take it you are more of a fan type so more than likely you talk to people even if it was just on the forums or discord.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

My question still stands

My question still stands as well.

What dictionary are you pulling your definition of "competitive" from?