Glorious Alpha Two Testers!

Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.

Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.

Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.

I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

13233343638

Comments

  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    I think no one knows what your intended context is, at this point.

    When a comment is to another post and you use it as a example for something else that is out of context. Unless we are going to use the forum for out of context comments from other people.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    When a comment is to another post and you use it as a example for something else that is out of context. Unless we are going to use the forum for out of context comments from other people.
    Please do expand on that context. I'll gladly admit that I don't always properly understand what others say cause english is my thirds language and no matter how much I try to perfect it, it's just not at a point where I'd want it to be.

    But I've reread the posts I linked and they still seem to align with my point.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    When a comment is to another post and you use it as a example for something else that is out of context. Unless we are going to use the forum for out of context comments from other people.
    We're just trying to undertsand what your context was intended to be.
    You should be able to reframe it for us.

  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    When a comment is to another post and you use it as a example for something else that is out of context. Unless we are going to use the forum for out of context comments from other people.
    Please do expand on that context. I'll gladly admit that I don't always properly understand what others say cause english is my thirds language and no matter how much I try to perfect it, it's just not at a point where I'd want it to be.

    But I've reread the posts I linked and they still seem to align with my point.

    If pvp is involved while you are doing a PvX thing like that was mentioned with the dungeon it is 100% competitive.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    If pvp is involved while you are doing a PvX thing like that was mentioned with the dungeon it is 100% competitive.
    So yeah, my mention of killing people on my way to farm applies to this. So even here it's a spectrum rather than just "competitive or not". Due to how L2's dungeons worked (same as Ashes) I was on my way to deeper mobs with better loot and would kill people on my way there if I saw flagged dudes. And their mobs would attack me so I'd kill those mobs too. I'd call that a pvx moment with non-competitive pvp.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    If pvp is involved while you are doing a PvX thing like that was mentioned with the dungeon it is 100% competitive.
    So yeah, my mention of killing people on my way to farm applies to this. So even here it's a spectrum rather than just "competitive or not". Due to how L2's dungeons worked (same as Ashes) I was on my way to deeper mobs with better loot and would kill people on my way there if I saw flagged dudes. And their mobs would attack me so I'd kill those mobs too. I'd call that a pvx moment with non-competitive pvp.

    Its a fight to its nature is competitive, though there can be instances where it isn't if you are pking them when they are almost dead, or if its guaranteed win and they can't do anything because of a certain reason. As long as you are both fighting and trying to win by nature that is competitive.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Its a fight to its nature is competitive, though there can be instances where it isn't if you are pking them when they are almost dead, or if its guaranteed win and they can't do anything because of a certain reason. As long as you are both fighting and trying to win by nature that is competitive.
    Guess we've got different definitions for competition :)
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Its a fight to its nature is competitive, though there can be instances where it isn't if you are pking them when they are almost dead, or if its guaranteed win and they can't do anything because of a certain reason. As long as you are both fighting and trying to win by nature that is competitive.
    Guess we've got different definitions for competition :) [/quote]


    Well based on the information you gave you are on your way to a grind spot so you are trying to win, and he is trying to live so if its a fight (where someone isn't getting one shotted) that is already competitive by nature. I know most people would view that as such to different scales. A random ow 1v1 compared to ranked, compared to siege, and compared to a tournament have different levels of degree.

    If you want to make a argument the person is bad and below you, you have already judged them through the battle in a competitive fight you just out classed them.

    If you don't agree with the points above, what happened that made it not a competitive battle for all the times you went out and attacked people onto your grind spot?
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    If you don't agree with the points above, what happened that made it not a competitive battle for all the times you went out and attacked people onto your grind spot?
    Imo "competition" means a common goal that people fight for. Me fighting/killing someone on my way to somewhere has nothing to do with my goal. I just see a character that I can just kill and I do it. Sometimes they kill me, so it's not like I just dominate everyone I see. But the main point, there was nothing we were competing for.

    But you think that just fighting for your life is "a competition". And that's where we disagree.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Its a fight to its nature is competitive, though there can be instances where it isn't if you are pking them when they are almost dead, or if its guaranteed win and they can't do anything because of a certain reason. As long as you are both fighting and trying to win by nature that is competitive.
    Guess we've got different definitions for competition :)

    Yeah, but only one of them is correct.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Yeah, but only one of them is correct.
    Nah, even google has a real vague one. Mag and I (and some others) are just on the different sides of that definition.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    If you don't agree with the points above, what happened that made it not a competitive battle for all the times you went out and attacked people onto your grind spot?
    Imo "competition" means a common goal that people fight for. Me fighting/killing someone on my way to somewhere has nothing to do with my goal. I just see a character that I can just kill and I do it. Sometimes they kill me, so it's not like I just dominate everyone I see. But the main point, there was nothing we were competing for.

    But you think that just fighting for your life is "a competition". And that's where we disagree.

    So your goal isn't to kill him and win to get to your grind spot deeper in the area?

    You can have an opinion on what is competition to you but the surrounding elements of that fight still is competitive you are trying to win and so is he.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    So your goal isn't to kill him and win to get to your grind spot deeper in the area?
    He's not in my way. He's just farming his room and happens to be flagged for whatever reason. I'm just passing by and decide to kill him because he's flagged. It's as easy as that. There's no deeper motivation and nothing we're competing for.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    So your goal isn't to kill him and win to get to your grind spot deeper in the area?
    He's not in my way. He's just farming his room and happens to be flagged for whatever reason. I'm just passing by and decide to kill him because he's flagged. It's as easy as that. There's no deeper motivation and nothing we're competing for.

    You don't need to compete for a item or mobs for it to be competitive. If he is grinding the room and gets attack he is going to fight, if you are trying to get deeper into the area you aren't trying to die. You are pvping for fun to see what someone can do in the most positive light, so it is competitive. It doesn't need to be a tournament or have some deeper meaning for it to be competitive, two players are fighting each other. You have intent to win and so does he, it doesn't mean you need to win or come back and get revenge nor he.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Like I said, we have different definitions of competition :)
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Like I said, we have different definitions of competition :)

    I used your definition, I also said competitive not a competition so the latter is just a bonus. I just think you don't want to admit it is competitive for certain reasons :wink:
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I used your definition, I also said competitive not a competition so the latter is just a bonus. I just think you don't want to admit it is competitive for certain reasons :wink:
    To me "to win" is not a goal. The win is the result of competition. Competition can only take place when 2 different entities have the same goal (be it "kill a certain mob", "be the first to kill a boss", "be at the top of a leaderboard", "come somewhere first" etc). To me survival is not competitive. To you it isn't either btw, cause, if it was, you'd consider pve to be intrinsically competitive because you're always trying to survive in pve and "compete" with each mob you come across. But you keep telling everyone that you don't consider pve competitive, so me and another dude fighting for our survival can't be competitive either.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I used your definition, I also said competitive not a competition so the latter is just a bonus. I just think you don't want to admit it is competitive for certain reasons :wink:
    To me "to win" is not a goal. The win is the result of competition. Competition can only take place when 2 different entities have the same goal (be it "kill a certain mob", "be the first to kill a boss", "be at the top of a leaderboard", "come somewhere first" etc). To me survival is not competitive. To it isn't either btw, cause, if it was, you'd consider pve to be intrinsically competitive because you're always trying to survive in pve and "compete" with each mob you come across. But you keep telling everyone that you don't consider pve competitive, so me and another dude fighting for our survival can't be competitive either.

    You are fighting another player trying to win and he is trying to win, the conflict between you two by the definition it is competitive. You can't just change definitions because you feel you need to over commit to this. You trying to compare other people to ai in pvp is kind of disrespectful to them all.

    No pve is AI, that is not competitive. Something being a challenge doesn't mean it is competitive. Can you just be honest with yourself, as a pvper you aren't trying to lose a fight, though it doesn't mean you are giving your all every fight...

  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    You are fighting another player trying to win and he is trying to win, the conflict between you two by the definition it is competitive. You can't just change definitions because you feel you need to over commit to this. You trying to compare other people to ai in pvp is kind of disrespectful to them all.
    Again, there was nothing to win in those fights. My target was fighting for survival, the same as they would against a mob, and I was just fighting them as I would've any other mob. Except a mob would've given me smth for beating him, while that player gave me literally nothing, even if he died. So if anything, pve is way more rewarding than pvp, hence it's more competitive.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    You are fighting another player trying to win and he is trying to win, the conflict between you two by the definition it is competitive. You can't just change definitions because you feel you need to over commit to this. You trying to compare other people to ai in pvp is kind of disrespectful to them all.
    Again, there was nothing to win in those fights. My target was fighting for survival, the same as they would against a mob, and I was just fighting them as I would've any other mob. Except a mob would've given me smth for beating him, while that player gave me literally nothing, even if he died. So if anything, pve is way more rewarding than pvp, hence it's more competitive.

    That doesn't mean it isn't competitive, if you are fighting for your survival between two players again that is competitive. Rewards don't have to have anything to do with something being competitive or a competition. Of course pve will be much more rewarding than PvP most of the time depending on the game.

    As much as you try a mob (ai) and a person is not the same thing you can't compare the two together unless you are trying to disrespect them or have more of a elitist outlook.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    You are fighting another player trying to win and he is trying to win, the conflict between you two by the definition it is competitive. You can't just change definitions because you feel you need to over commit to this. You trying to compare other people to ai in pvp is kind of disrespectful to them all.
    Again, there was nothing to win in those fights. My target was fighting for survival, the same as they would against a mob, and I was just fighting them as I would've any other mob. Except a mob would've given me smth for beating him, while that player gave me literally nothing, even if he died. So if anything, pve is way more rewarding than pvp, hence it's more competitive.

    That doesn't mean it isn't competitive, if you are fighting for your survival between two players again that is competitive. Rewards don't have to have anything to do with something being competitive or a competition. Of course pve will be much more rewarding than PvP most of the time depending on the game.

    As much as you try a mob (ai) and a person is not the same thing you can't compare the two together unless you are trying to disrespect them or have more of a elitist outlook.

    But we're elitists.

    I literally build AI that is meant to mimic and surpass people.

    You can ARGUE with Elites, but you can't also expect them to change to your AverageJoe attitude.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    You are fighting another player trying to win and he is trying to win, the conflict between you two by the definition it is competitive. You can't just change definitions because you feel you need to over commit to this. You trying to compare other people to ai in pvp is kind of disrespectful to them all.
    Again, there was nothing to win in those fights. My target was fighting for survival, the same as they would against a mob, and I was just fighting them as I would've any other mob. Except a mob would've given me smth for beating him, while that player gave me literally nothing, even if he died. So if anything, pve is way more rewarding than pvp, hence it's more competitive.

    That doesn't mean it isn't competitive, if you are fighting for your survival between two players again that is competitive. Rewards don't have to have anything to do with something being competitive or a competition. Of course pve will be much more rewarding than PvP most of the time depending on the game.

    As much as you try a mob (ai) and a person is not the same thing you can't compare the two together unless you are trying to disrespect them or have more of a elitist outlook.

    But we're elitists.

    I literally build AI that is meant to mimic and surpass people.

    You can ARGUE with Elites, but you can't also expect them to change to your AverageJoe attitude.

    If the ai surpassed humans skill it still wouldn't be competitive. all I see is there is a definition for two people battling each other where one survives and one dies and hearing the definition being changed so he can not admit it.

    If the argument I don't see it as competitive because I don't see humans as humans that is where I'll most likely stop and we are pretty much almost there.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    You are fighting another player trying to win and he is trying to win, the conflict between you two by the definition it is competitive. You can't just change definitions because you feel you need to over commit to this. You trying to compare other people to ai in pvp is kind of disrespectful to them all.
    Again, there was nothing to win in those fights. My target was fighting for survival, the same as they would against a mob, and I was just fighting them as I would've any other mob. Except a mob would've given me smth for beating him, while that player gave me literally nothing, even if he died. So if anything, pve is way more rewarding than pvp, hence it's more competitive.

    That doesn't mean it isn't competitive, if you are fighting for your survival between two players again that is competitive. Rewards don't have to have anything to do with something being competitive or a competition. Of course pve will be much more rewarding than PvP most of the time depending on the game.

    As much as you try a mob (ai) and a person is not the same thing you can't compare the two together unless you are trying to disrespect them or have more of a elitist outlook.

    But we're elitists.

    I literally build AI that is meant to mimic and surpass people.

    You can ARGUE with Elites, but you can't also expect them to change to your AverageJoe attitude.

    If the ai surpassed humans skill it still wouldn't be competitive. all I see is there is a definition for two people battling each other where one survives and one dies and hearing the definition being changed so he can not admit it.

    If the argument I don't see it as competitive because I don't see humans as humans that is where I'll most likely stop and we are pretty much almost there.

    If you can tell the difference between my AI and a real person, either I have failed, or you can tell because the AI is better and since most people aren't that good at stuff, it seems too suspiciously good.

    I have this problem with my chatbots, I had to downgrade some of their vocabulary systems because they eventually give themselves away by making too much sense.

    It's just funny to me because of the precision of the argument being applied with me specifically around. Kind of weird, huh? I feel like this has happened more than once on this forum, too...
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Premise 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor_(gymnastics) this sport is competitive. Even if players do not perform at the same time. You measure scores at the end to determine the winner.

    Premise 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay_race this sport is also competitive. Even if it is a team sport, everyone's performances effect the end outcome. A winning team is declared by whatever team collectively gets the best time.

    Premise 3: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedrun Speedrunning is just an electronic version of a race.

    Premise 4: You do not need to race someone at the same time for the time to be measured against one another and a winner to be declared if Premise 1 is true. So if you accept Premise 3 speedruns can be seen as a race between one or multiple people at any given time.

    Premise 5: mmo raids can be speedrun.

    Premise 6: mmo raids can be like relay races in that how well one person performs effects the teams completion time

    Conclusion: mmo raids can be competitive.

    Tell me which premises you disagree with please.
    Node coffers: Single Payer Capitalism in action
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    qoyvud784upi.png
    I wasn't striving to win anything, nor could I win/gain anything.

    It wasn't an event or contest, because there was no reward for the actions we did.

    And my target wasn't a competitor because there was no event to compete in.

    So none of the realities of the situation fit the definition of a competition. But as I've said before, you could pose this as a psychological question of "whether I wanted to dominate my target", but that was never a conscious thought in my mind. You could say I thought that on a subconscious level, but at that point it'd become a philosophical question of "how does one define competition for themselves? is it a conscious thought or a state of being, no matter the attitude of the people participating in said "competition".

    But under the dictionary definition of competition - it was not one.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    if you are fighting for your survival between two players again that is competitive.

    Is this the only definition of competitive in your mind?

    Because both the Mirriam-Webster and Oxford dictionaries each give 3 definitions for the word.

    So, are you saying you are more of a primary source than The Oxford Dictionary?
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Anyways right, so as to not derail.

    Yes, at least I'm an elitist, there's a ton of instances of it, AI are cooler and better challenges than real people, etc.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Anyways right, so as to not derail.

    Yes, at least I'm an elitist, there's a ton of instances of it, AI are cooler and better challenges than real people, etc.

    Indeed they are.

    AI is better at chess, LoL and even GO! than people are.

    Sure, MMO's may not have that level of AI, but AI in general is better than people at basically everything now.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    JustVine wrote: »
    Premise 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor_(gymnastics) this sport is competitive. Even if players do not perform at the same time. You measure scores at the end to determine the winner.

    Premise 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay_race this sport is also competitive. Even if it is a team sport, everyone's performances effect the end outcome. A winning team is declared by whatever team collectively gets the best time.

    Premise 3: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedrun Speedrunning is just an electronic version of a race.

    Premise 4: You do not need to race someone at the same time for the time to be measured against one another and a winner to be declared if Premise 1 is true. So if you accept Premise 3 speedruns can be seen as a race between one or multiple people at any given time.

    Premise 5: mmo raids can be speedrun.

    Premise 6: mmo raids can be like relay races in that how well one person performs effects the teams completion time

    Conclusion: mmo raids can be competitive.

    Tell me which premises you disagree with please.

    As far as gymnastics goes people are competing directly against each other, same with racing using their own body in something that is undetermined.

    So ill get to the important part again with 5+.

    First off there are guides so you know exactly what to do. There is a challenge at hand but you are simply following what people have done before you already copying some elements or trying some new elements to do it a little bit faster. What you are fighting is also AI and not a player so there is no direct relation player vrs player. (I'm assuming you are going to try to rebuttal with racing but its not the same thing as racers aren't solving a puzzle and that puzzle in a mmorpg has already been solved in terms speedruns.).

    Players simply doing what they know they need to do in how a guide explains isn't competitive as you are fighting AI and not a human. You know the challenge and are simply trying some new things in order to get a slightly faster time. You aren't trying to overcome the challenge that is the mind / body / reaction of another you are simply fighting some AI with a set puzzles you need to overcome as well with a good dose of RNG.


  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    JustVine wrote: »
    Premise 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor_(gymnastics) this sport is competitive. Even if players do not perform at the same time. You measure scores at the end to determine the winner.

    Premise 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay_race this sport is also competitive. Even if it is a team sport, everyone's performances effect the end outcome. A winning team is declared by whatever team collectively gets the best time.

    Premise 3: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedrun Speedrunning is just an electronic version of a race.

    Premise 4: You do not need to race someone at the same time for the time to be measured against one another and a winner to be declared if Premise 1 is true. So if you accept Premise 3 speedruns can be seen as a race between one or multiple people at any given time.

    Premise 5: mmo raids can be speedrun.

    Premise 6: mmo raids can be like relay races in that how well one person performs effects the teams completion time

    Conclusion: mmo raids can be competitive.

    Tell me which premises you disagree with please.

    As far as gymnastics goes people are competing directly against each other, same with racing using their own body in something that is undetermined.

    So ill get to the important part again with 5+.

    First off there are guides so you know exactly what to do. There is a challenge at hand but you are simply following what people have done before you already copying some elements or trying some new elements to do it a little bit faster. What you are fighting is also AI and not a player so there is no direct relation player vrs player. (I'm assuming you are going to try to rebuttal with racing but its not the same thing as racers aren't solving a puzzle and that puzzle in a mmorpg has already been solved in terms speedruns.).

    Players simply doing what they know they need to do in how a guide explains isn't competitive as you are fighting AI and not a human. You know the challenge and are simply trying some new things in order to get a slightly faster time. You aren't trying to overcome the challenge that is the mind / body / reaction of another you are simply fighting some AI with a set puzzles you need to overcome as well with a good dose of RNG.


    I think people have tried to tell you multiple times that this is a logical error.

    I understand that for you, if you are talking about Average Content, that doesn't cause the majority of Average players to just wipe, then there will always be a guide because a Noaani made one, even if it was just to get some guild members up to speed.

    No one is talking about that Average content.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
Sign In or Register to comment.