All mmorpgs inspire each other, there is not really should not inspire as all have good points that they have done well in some form. Which is nothing new as WoW inspired a lot of mmorpgs, some just took a lot rather then a little from it. The feel of BDO combat being a great thing to pull some elements from.
Not really. No.
I comment BDO combat is great you are saying no not really. Based on your thoughts of BDO combat elements being used as inspiration for AoC you always crap on bdo the moment its mentioned which makes me think you are thinking it is trash.
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2022
I don't always crap on BDO combat.
As is typical - your bias has you not comprehending what people who have opposing views have stated.
You don't have to agree with me, but you should at least be able to accurately reflect my stated pov.
I don't always crap on BDO comment.
Your bias - which as is typical - has you not comprehending what people who have opposing views have stated.
You realize when people are talking about BDO combat they arent talking about pve content right? And you never have anything good to say, else if comments on AoC having inspiration from BDO combat wouldn't be a bad thing.
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2022
That is absurd.
You may mean is that when you are talking about BDO combat, you aren't talking about PvE content.
I've told you many times before that BDO combat is great for a hack and slash. It's not good -and is actually detrimental- for an MMORPG.
Just because a combat design is great for one type ofvideo game, does not mean it is great for a different type of video game.
You want to focus on the PvP, but Ashes is not a PvP game. Ashes is a PvX game.
Mor importantly, Ashes is a PvX MMORPG. So, I care about how the combat design will negatively affect RP and PvE - not just whether it feels great to PvPers.
That is absurd.
You may mean is that when you are talking about BDO combat, you aren't talking about PvE content.
I've told you many times before that BDO combat is great for a hack and slash. It's not good -and is actually detrimental- for an MMORPG.
Just because a combat design is great for one type ofvideo game, does not mean it is great for a different type of video game.
It is not designed for technical mechanics for pve to do that well or be balanced. It could be changed to do that completely well first by not making it so you aren't killing 1000 mobs every like 15 minutes. But this is besides the point.
When we are talking about flow and feel of combat bdo does it the best at high levels, it feels good and plays well and that is a bonus to any mmorpg. Yes it works for killing mobs but the main technical aspects you only see in a proper pvp fight with both people having knowledge of the game.
Your perception of combat is PvE so there will be a lot of elements in bdo combat you will not know about as pve doesn't push or require you to use certain things. If you haven't played and understood the combat on a high level involving pvp why can you not admit there could be things people see that you do not?
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2022
It's not.
Doesn't matter how many times you assert your opinion.
You cans say the Earth is flat as many times as you like. I will still disagree with you.
But, you know...
You can always hope that the guy who stated Steven said in Discord voice chat that they've been inspired by BDO combat was truthful. Even though we have no dev quote for that.
It is done. Now hopefully no one else will want to get between you two as much and you can enjoy this 'conversation' until you burn out of ... whatever is going on here.
Have 'fun'.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
LMAO
(Seems to me that, over a week ago, you told him pretty much what he just said.)
What is funny is i keep having to repeat myself, all those post talk about pve, hack and slash as in you are mindlessly killing tons of enemies. Its cleary they call it hack and slash because of the non existent pve content and how easy it is to kill mobs. And you are linking a bunch of articles from random game journalist that wouldn't even have gotten into the game to begin with more then a surface level. If you are posting game jurno reviewers as your point instead of explaining it you are being dishonest.
I continue to tell you that is not how PvP works and its very mechanically heavy. If this is the sample you are bringing with you understand what im talking about with the game you simply don't know what im talking about, this post showing me that clearly. You continue to ignore what is actually being said because you dislike pve content when that honestly has nothing to do with the combat as it doesn't require you to have a deep understanding of it.
Anyone can type in some keyword on the internet and have people explain things in a way they want to hear. Challenging content isn't pve if you only talk about pve with BDO you are not playing the game. Like you went out of your way to search for a few post with hardly any comments, video with no views in another language or journalist that don't even play the game really...Where are the creditable post calling it a hack and slash game at the very least.
If you don't understand combat in relation to pvp there is nothing wrong with that but it also means you won't know the depth of the combat or understand what I'm talking about. So you shouldn't have a point saying its a hack and slash game with no rpg elements to it. I don't see customization on character build even on BDO'S level hack and slash games, or even the amount of skills you have. You don't know BDO, what even was your gear score....
What is funny is i keep having to repeat myself, all those post talk about pve, hack and slash as in you are mindlessly killing tons of enemies. Its cleary they call it hack and slash because of the non existent pve content and how easy it is to kill mobs. And you are linking a bunch of articles from random game journalist that wouldn't even have gotten into the game to begin with more then a surface level. If you are posting game jurno reviewers as your point instead of explaining it you are being dishonest.
I continue to tell you that is not how PvP works and its very mechanically heavy. If this is the sample you are bringing with you understand what im talking about with the game you simply don't know what im talking about, this post showing me that clearly. You continue to ignore what is actually being said because you dislike pve content when that honestly has nothing to do with the combat as it doesn't require you to have a deep understanding of it.
Anyone can type in some keyword on the internet and have people explain things in a way they want to hear. Challenging content isn't pve if you only talk about pve with BDO you are not playing the game. Like you went out of your way to search for a few post with hardly any comments, video with no views in another language or journalist that don't even play the game really...Where are the creditable post calling it a hack and slash game at the very least.
If you don't understand combat in relation to pvp there is nothing wrong with that but it also means you won't know the depth of the combat or understand what I'm talking about. So you shouldn't have a point saying its a hack and slash game with no rpg elements to it. I don't see customization on character build even on BDO'S level hack and slash games, or even the amount of skills you have. You don't know BDO, what even was your gear score....
Are you trying to imply the combat is different for PvP and PVE?
if you are figthing a mob and you can kill it with one skill without using any kind of depth the combat has be it chaining multiple attacks together, proper combos just running around as fast as possible one tapping everything. Yes the pve is going to be shallow and not feel good. Its like if you were to play any mmo where you my a build, but you can kill everything with your basic auto attack. You aren't having the proper pace of a pvp fight that the game was designed for, all mobs were not even secondary.
When we are talking about flow and feel of combat bdo does it the best at high levels, it feels good and plays well and that is a bonus to any mmorpg.
BDO plays like shit.
It just has animations to cover it up, so that people that care more about how a game looks (presumably so they can show off to their friends or somthing) are tricked in to thinking the combat is good.
When we are talking about flow and feel of combat bdo does it the best at high levels, it feels good and plays well and that is a bonus to any mmorpg.
BDO plays like shit.
It just has animations to cover it up, so that people that care more about how a game looks (presumably so they can show off to their friends or somthing) are tricked in to thinking the combat is good.
I'll ask you the same question, how much high end pvp did you do on BDO and what gear score did you get to.
When we are talking about flow and feel of combat bdo does it the best at high levels, it feels good and plays well and that is a bonus to any mmorpg.
BDO plays like shit.
It just has animations to cover it up, so that people that care more about how a game looks (presumably so they can show off to their friends or somthing) are tricked in to thinking the combat is good.
I'll ask you the same question, how much high end pvp did you do on BDO and what gear score did you get to.
This is one of the stupider things I have seen you say.
My "qualifications" are the words I am typing. If you cant refute what I am saying, it doesnt matter how much time I spent playing BDO.
When we are talking about flow and feel of combat bdo does it the best at high levels, it feels good and plays well and that is a bonus to any mmorpg.
BDO plays like shit.
It just has animations to cover it up, so that people that care more about how a game looks (presumably so they can show off to their friends or somthing) are tricked in to thinking the combat is good.
I'll ask you the same question, how much high end pvp did you do on BDO and what gear score did you get to.
This is one of the stupider things I have seen you say.
My "qualifications" are the words I am typing. If you cant refute what I am saying, it doesnt matter how much time I spent playing BDO.
As such, why is it relevant?
If you can't answer the question with any amount of confidence I can take it that you didn't play BDO for pvp nor how to learn the combat and control of the character properly. Nor trying more then one character and understanding all the mechanics for the game. It has a high learning curve its not like EQ where you can just tap a button and that is as far as the combat goes for using skills. "Plays like shit" means nothing for me for qualifications, if you have spent a decent amount of time on the game then I can have a conversation, else you don't know the depth of the combat or even played it long enough to understand the points I'd say. You thinking animations don't do anything as we have brought this up before shows your lack of understanding. In BDO it is like a dance, and all your moves and how you control it are pretty important for dealing and evading damage.
When we are talking about flow and feel of combat bdo does it the best at high levels, it feels good and plays well and that is a bonus to any mmorpg.
BDO plays like shit.
It just has animations to cover it up, so that people that care more about how a game looks (presumably so they can show off to their friends or somthing) are tricked in to thinking the combat is good.
I'll ask you the same question, how much high end pvp did you do on BDO and what gear score did you get to.
This is one of the stupider things I have seen you say.
My "qualifications" are the words I am typing. If you cant refute what I am saying, it doesnt matter how much time I spent playing BDO.
As such, why is it relevant?
If you can't answer the question with any amount of confidence I can take it that you didn't play BDO for pvp nor how to learn the combat and control of the character properly. Nor trying more then one character and understanding all the mechanics for the game. It has a high learning curve its not like EQ where you can just tap a button and that is as far as the combat goes for using skills. "Plays like shit" means nothing for me for qualifications, if you have spent a decent amount of time on the game then I can have a conversation, else you don't know the depth of the combat or even played it long enough to understand the points I'd say. You thinking animations don't do anything as we have brought this up before shows your lack of understanding. In BDO it is like a dance, and all your moves and how you control it are pretty important for dealing and evading damage.
None of the above matters.
I am able to have a somewhat competent discussion about L2, with people that spent years there, despite never playing the game at all myself
Fact is, BDO combat is shit, it plays slow, it has stupid mechanics (modifiers to damage taken from specific classes, as an example), and I dont need to have played that game at the high end to form the above opinion. The only thing it has going for it are somewhat decent animations - meaning it *looks* ok.
If you wish to disagree with any of the above, then let's talk.
Fact is, BDO combat is shit, it plays slow, it has stupid mechanics (modifiers to damage taken from specific classes, as an example), and I dont need to have played that game at the high end to form the above opinion. The only thing it has going for it are somewhat decent animations - meaning it *looks* ok.
If you wish to disagree with any of the above, then let's talk.
If not, why even reply?
I bolded the portion I disagree with. I'd like to know why you think the game plays slow, because either
A: You have not actually played the game and are making a baseless assumption, or
B: You did play it, but not to the point of understanding how it works.
If you have played BDO and truly believe it plays slow, I'd like for you to give me an example of an MMO that plays faster and also explain why you think BDO plays slow.
Fact is, BDO combat is shit, it plays slow, it has stupid mechanics (modifiers to damage taken from specific classes, as an example), and I dont need to have played that game at the high end to form the above opinion. The only thing it has going for it are somewhat decent animations - meaning it *looks* ok.
If you wish to disagree with any of the above, then let's talk.
If not, why even reply?
I bolded the portion I disagree with. I'd like to know why you think the game plays slow, because either
A: You have not actually played the game and are making a baseless assumption, or
B: You did play it, but not to the point of understanding how it works.
If you have played BDO and truly believe it plays slow, I'd like for you to give me an example of an MMO that plays faster and also explain why you think BDO plays slow.
To me, it plays slow because there is fewer actions per minute needed than in other games I play - including older games like EQ2.
It absolutely LOOKS faster than many other games, but there is just not the need to press as many buttons as other games.
This is why I said it plays slow, not IS slow. The animation is fast, and at times you need fast reactions, there just isn't the need for as many actual button presses as many other games.
To me, it plays slow because there is fewer actions per minute needed than in other games I play - including older games like EQ2.
It absolutely LOOKS faster than many other games, but there is just not the need to press as many buttons as other games.
This is why I said it plays slow, not IS slow. The animation is fast, and at times you need fast reactions, there just isn't the need for as many actual button presses as many other games.
Shift + LMB -> S + F -> W + F -> Hotkey of choice (1 button press) -> Q -> W + F -> RMB -> S + E -> Shift + Z.
This was a non-optimized combo I used over 4 years ago. It could have included more button presses with a more optimized combo, but it wasn't always needed. Nowadays, combos are much more optimized and fit even more abilities in a short amount of time. And how long did it take for me to input those buttons? Less than 4 seconds. 15 button presses in less than 4 seconds, but if you want to say you meant ability uses and not button presses, then it's still 9 ability uses in less than 4 seconds. This is not accounting for camera rotations that need to be done as well.
That comes out to roughly 4 (because it was under 4 seconds, most likely closer to 3.5) non-repeating button presses per second, or 2.4 per second if you only want to count only ability uses. Optimized movement for many classes requires the same APM, more or less, just depending on which class you're playing. If you don't move properly in BDO, you die instantly. So if you're playing with some degree of skill, you're pushing out over 200 button presses per minute very easily. Again, this is not accounting for camera rotations for micro-movements and ability placements in the middle of combos or movement chains.
Are you implying EQ2 required more button presses per minute than that?
What is funny is i keep having to repeat myself, all those post talk about pve, hack and slash as in you are mindlessly killing tons of enemies. Its cleary they call it hack and slash because of the non existent pve content and how easy it is to kill mobs. And you are linking a bunch of articles from random game journalist that wouldn't even have gotten into the game to begin with more then a surface level. If you are posting game jurno reviewers as your point instead of explaining it you are being dishonest.
I continue to tell you that is not how PvP works and its very mechanically heavy. If this is the sample you are bringing with you understand what im talking about with the game you simply don't know what im talking about, this post showing me that clearly. You continue to ignore what is actually being said because you dislike pve content when that honestly has nothing to do with the combat as it doesn't require you to have a deep understanding of it.
Anyone can type in some keyword on the internet and have people explain things in a way they want to hear. Challenging content isn't pve if you only talk about pve with BDO you are not playing the game. Like you went out of your way to search for a few post with hardly any comments, video with no views in another language or journalist that don't even play the game really...Where are the creditable post calling it a hack and slash game at the very least.
If you don't understand combat in relation to pvp there is nothing wrong with that but it also means you won't know the depth of the combat or understand what I'm talking about. So you shouldn't have a point saying its a hack and slash game with no rpg elements to it. I don't see customization on character build even on BDO'S level hack and slash games, or even the amount of skills you have. You don't know BDO, what even was your gear score....
Are you trying to imply the combat is different for PvP and PVE?
if you are figthing a mob and you can kill it with one skill without using any kind of depth the combat has be it chaining multiple attacks together, proper combos just running around as fast as possible one tapping everything. Yes the pve is going to be shallow and not feel good. Its like if you were to play any mmo where you my a build, but you can kill everything with your basic auto attack. You aren't having the proper pace of a pvp fight that the game was designed for, all mobs were not even secondary.
Ok
So the controls and skills still work the same. Just the game is built poorly.
Fact is, BDO combat is shit, it plays slow, it has stupid mechanics (modifiers to damage taken from specific classes, as an example), and I dont need to have played that game at the high end to form the above opinion. The only thing it has going for it are somewhat decent animations - meaning it *looks* ok.
If you wish to disagree with any of the above, then let's talk.
If not, why even reply?
I bolded the portion I disagree with. I'd like to know why you think the game plays slow, because either
A: You have not actually played the game and are making a baseless assumption, or
B: You did play it, but not to the point of understanding how it works.
If you have played BDO and truly believe it plays slow, I'd like for you to give me an example of an MMO that plays faster and also explain why you think BDO plays slow.
To me, it plays slow because there is fewer actions per minute needed than in other games I play - including older games like EQ2.
It absolutely LOOKS faster than many other games, but there is just not the need to press as many buttons as other games.
This is why I said it plays slow, not IS slow. The animation is fast, and at times you need fast reactions, there just isn't the need for as many actual button presses as many other games.
How me a pvp video where you are pressing more buttons, the moment that ability as a GCD (skill cast time) you will be wrong though. So hopefully you can find the right video that proves this before I get any further in this discussion
Like i said before you just have played bdo at lvl 1-30 thought the pve was bad and stopped. Which it would make sense how you might think what you think, never gotten to an advanced point at understanding the gameplay. If you don't understand then you won't be able to play it properly.
What is funny is i keep having to repeat myself, all those post talk about pve, hack and slash as in you are mindlessly killing tons of enemies. Its cleary they call it hack and slash because of the non existent pve content and how easy it is to kill mobs. And you are linking a bunch of articles from random game journalist that wouldn't even have gotten into the game to begin with more then a surface level. If you are posting game jurno reviewers as your point instead of explaining it you are being dishonest.
I continue to tell you that is not how PvP works and its very mechanically heavy. If this is the sample you are bringing with you understand what im talking about with the game you simply don't know what im talking about, this post showing me that clearly. You continue to ignore what is actually being said because you dislike pve content when that honestly has nothing to do with the combat as it doesn't require you to have a deep understanding of it.
Anyone can type in some keyword on the internet and have people explain things in a way they want to hear. Challenging content isn't pve if you only talk about pve with BDO you are not playing the game. Like you went out of your way to search for a few post with hardly any comments, video with no views in another language or journalist that don't even play the game really...Where are the creditable post calling it a hack and slash game at the very least.
If you don't understand combat in relation to pvp there is nothing wrong with that but it also means you won't know the depth of the combat or understand what I'm talking about. So you shouldn't have a point saying its a hack and slash game with no rpg elements to it. I don't see customization on character build even on BDO'S level hack and slash games, or even the amount of skills you have. You don't know BDO, what even was your gear score....
Are you trying to imply the combat is different for PvP and PVE?
if you are figthing a mob and you can kill it with one skill without using any kind of depth the combat has be it chaining multiple attacks together, proper combos just running around as fast as possible one tapping everything. Yes the pve is going to be shallow and not feel good. Its like if you were to play any mmo where you my a build, but you can kill everything with your basic auto attack. You aren't having the proper pace of a pvp fight that the game was designed for, all mobs were not even secondary.
Ok
So the controls and skills still work the same. Just the game is built poorly.
PvE content is built poorly and made for kr grinder types. You are killing like a thousand mobs a hour minimum depending where you are grinding. Imagine there was no risk of death in the general PvE you do. That is why PvP is much different as there is a risk of death and changes the flow of the combat as well as players not dying in one tap you use a combo and kill them in 3 (still lame but it also depends on gear score and what point of bdo we are talking about). Though the difficulty in bdo with pvp is catching someone with a cc as you use super armors, i frames, mobility, frontal guards to reduce dmg and reduce cc chance.
To me, it plays slow because there is fewer actions per minute needed than in other games I play - including older games like EQ2.
It absolutely LOOKS faster than many other games, but there is just not the need to press as many buttons as other games.
This is why I said it plays slow, not IS slow. The animation is fast, and at times you need fast reactions, there just isn't the need for as many actual button presses as many other games.
Shift + LMB -> S + F -> W + F -> Hotkey of choice (1 button press) -> Q -> W + F -> RMB -> S + E -> Shift + Z.
This was a non-optimized combo I used over 4 years ago. It could have included more button presses with a more optimized combo, but it wasn't always needed. Nowadays, combos are much more optimized and fit even more abilities in a short amount of time. And how long did it take for me to input those buttons? Less than 4 seconds. 15 button presses in less than 4 seconds, but if you want to say you meant ability uses and not button presses, then it's still 9 ability uses in less than 4 seconds. This is not accounting for camera rotations that need to be done as well.
That comes out to roughly 4 (because it was under 4 seconds, most likely closer to 3.5) non-repeating button presses per second, or 2.4 per second if you only want to count only ability uses. Optimized movement for many classes requires the same APM, more or less, just depending on which class you're playing. If you don't move properly in BDO, you die instantly. So if you're playing with some degree of skill, you're pushing out over 200 button presses per minute very easily. Again, this is not accounting for camera rotations for micro-movements and ability placements in the middle of combos or movement chains.
Are you implying EQ2 required more button presses per minute than that?
This is everquest pvp, he is trying to say because animations don't matter that the animation time equals the skill cast time. That that statement is false because you need to aim your skills and actually hit your target, some skills are very fast, you can cancel skills before they are done and start another one and attack instantly, etc.
@Zyvan
And comparing to to the gameplay portion of this video.....Mashing a bunch of buttons doesn't really equal to speed or complex combat to me. Even if you remove skill last times and have all access to like the 50 skills and can use everything instantly that isn't fast gameplay. Its just whoever can type faster. Speed is yes skill use but all other elements as well movement and mobility, speed of your tracking with your cameras to hit targets, speed at which to react to other target, speed to predict and understand movements. Show anyone these two gameplays and its not even a question what people would rather play int his day and age. One has combat the other practically advanced is turn based.
@Zyvan
And comparing to to the gameplay portion of this video.....Mashing a bunch of buttons doesn't really equal to speed or complex combat to me. Even if you remove skill last times and have all access to like the 50 skills and can use everything instantly that isn't fast gameplay. Its just whoever can type faster. Speed is yes skill use but all other elements as well movement and mobility, speed of your tracking with your cameras to hit targets, speed at which to react to other target, speed to predict and understand movements. Show anyone these two gameplays and its not even a question what people would rather play int his day and age. One has combat the other practically advanced is turn based.
That's precisely why I mentioned proper movement and camera rotation in my last comment. I didn't even bring up how there are multiple pauses/hesitations in certain combos so the CC chain continues properly. Because as you said, it's essentially whoever types the fastest (or button mashing, even) if speed was all that mattered.
I love how both your last few comments and the post made by Azherae don't even scratch the surface of the game's combat, either. You've both been trying to explain the very basics for others to understand where you're coming from, but they still can't (or choose not to) entertain the idea of it having elements in its combat system worthy enough to draw inspiration from.
I've gone on record to say I don't believe BDO combat should be used 1:1 in other MMOs, but choosing to ignore every single part of it because it's "slow" or "button mashing" is ridiculous.
I agree 100% should not be used 1:1 at all. But just saying combat fluidity of how moves string together is great as well as being able to move in and out of your attacks with strong response time is good. Saying that is something that should be looked at is not a bad thing yet people hear bdo and freak out. No one is talking about the insane speed of bdo and being able to teleport everywhere, slowing the pace down to what AOC has shown I think looks great. They don't need to make combos as complex as bdo I'd be fine with a hard cc and a mini cc and then they have protection. Plenty elements from bdo you shouldn't include like how their super armor system but it doesn't mean there are not good traits to look at it and do your own spin on in a AoC way.
Yeah, I mean, without looking at BDO, it's impossible to implement Action Combat that has fluid combat or even "strong response time".
No one said its impossible it's simply an example, all mmorpgs should be looked at for their strengths and weaknesses. There aren't as many examples of action mmorpgs, bdo is one of the best examples to see the fluidity of combat and feel where its easy to test out without needing to get gear or level a character as well. PvE on bdo is something that doesn't need to be looked at as it doesn't really exist, so any relations to combat and pve should not be looked at as it doesn't matter imo.
Comments
I comment BDO combat is great you are saying no not really. Based on your thoughts of BDO combat elements being used as inspiration for AoC you always crap on bdo the moment its mentioned which makes me think you are thinking it is trash.
As is typical - your bias has you not comprehending what people who have opposing views have stated.
You don't have to agree with me, but you should at least be able to accurately reflect my stated pov.
You realize when people are talking about BDO combat they arent talking about pve content right? And you never have anything good to say, else if comments on AoC having inspiration from BDO combat wouldn't be a bad thing.
You may mean is that when you are talking about BDO combat, you aren't talking about PvE content.
I've told you many times before that BDO combat is great for a hack and slash. It's not good -and is actually detrimental- for an MMORPG.
Just because a combat design is great for one type ofvideo game, does not mean it is great for a different type of video game.
You want to focus on the PvP, but Ashes is not a PvP game. Ashes is a PvX game.
Mor importantly, Ashes is a PvX MMORPG. So, I care about how the combat design will negatively affect RP and PvE - not just whether it feels great to PvPers.
It is not designed for technical mechanics for pve to do that well or be balanced. It could be changed to do that completely well first by not making it so you aren't killing 1000 mobs every like 15 minutes. But this is besides the point.
When we are talking about flow and feel of combat bdo does it the best at high levels, it feels good and plays well and that is a bonus to any mmorpg. Yes it works for killing mobs but the main technical aspects you only see in a proper pvp fight with both people having knowledge of the game.
Your perception of combat is PvE so there will be a lot of elements in bdo combat you will not know about as pve doesn't push or require you to use certain things. If you haven't played and understood the combat on a high level involving pvp why can you not admit there could be things people see that you do not?
Doesn't matter how many times you assert your opinion.
You cans say the Earth is flat as many times as you like. I will still disagree with you.
But, you know...
You can always hope that the guy who stated Steven said in Discord voice chat that they've been inspired by BDO combat was truthful. Even though we have no dev quote for that.
You haven't done pvp so you don't know what you are talking about or understand bdo combat. So we can just end it there.
Have 'fun'.
(Seems to me that, over a week ago, you told him pretty much what he just said.)
Are you trying to imply the combat is different for PvP and PVE?
if you are figthing a mob and you can kill it with one skill without using any kind of depth the combat has be it chaining multiple attacks together, proper combos just running around as fast as possible one tapping everything. Yes the pve is going to be shallow and not feel good. Its like if you were to play any mmo where you my a build, but you can kill everything with your basic auto attack. You aren't having the proper pace of a pvp fight that the game was designed for, all mobs were not even secondary.
BDO plays like shit.
It just has animations to cover it up, so that people that care more about how a game looks (presumably so they can show off to their friends or somthing) are tricked in to thinking the combat is good.
I'll ask you the same question, how much high end pvp did you do on BDO and what gear score did you get to.
This is one of the stupider things I have seen you say.
My "qualifications" are the words I am typing. If you cant refute what I am saying, it doesnt matter how much time I spent playing BDO.
As such, why is it relevant?
If you can't answer the question with any amount of confidence I can take it that you didn't play BDO for pvp nor how to learn the combat and control of the character properly. Nor trying more then one character and understanding all the mechanics for the game. It has a high learning curve its not like EQ where you can just tap a button and that is as far as the combat goes for using skills. "Plays like shit" means nothing for me for qualifications, if you have spent a decent amount of time on the game then I can have a conversation, else you don't know the depth of the combat or even played it long enough to understand the points I'd say. You thinking animations don't do anything as we have brought this up before shows your lack of understanding. In BDO it is like a dance, and all your moves and how you control it are pretty important for dealing and evading damage.
None of the above matters.
I am able to have a somewhat competent discussion about L2, with people that spent years there, despite never playing the game at all myself
Fact is, BDO combat is shit, it plays slow, it has stupid mechanics (modifiers to damage taken from specific classes, as an example), and I dont need to have played that game at the high end to form the above opinion. The only thing it has going for it are somewhat decent animations - meaning it *looks* ok.
If you wish to disagree with any of the above, then let's talk.
If not, why even reply?
I bolded the portion I disagree with. I'd like to know why you think the game plays slow, because either
A: You have not actually played the game and are making a baseless assumption, or
B: You did play it, but not to the point of understanding how it works.
If you have played BDO and truly believe it plays slow, I'd like for you to give me an example of an MMO that plays faster and also explain why you think BDO plays slow.
To me, it plays slow because there is fewer actions per minute needed than in other games I play - including older games like EQ2.
It absolutely LOOKS faster than many other games, but there is just not the need to press as many buttons as other games.
This is why I said it plays slow, not IS slow. The animation is fast, and at times you need fast reactions, there just isn't the need for as many actual button presses as many other games.
Shift + LMB -> S + F -> W + F -> Hotkey of choice (1 button press) -> Q -> W + F -> RMB -> S + E -> Shift + Z.
This was a non-optimized combo I used over 4 years ago. It could have included more button presses with a more optimized combo, but it wasn't always needed. Nowadays, combos are much more optimized and fit even more abilities in a short amount of time. And how long did it take for me to input those buttons? Less than 4 seconds. 15 button presses in less than 4 seconds, but if you want to say you meant ability uses and not button presses, then it's still 9 ability uses in less than 4 seconds. This is not accounting for camera rotations that need to be done as well.
That comes out to roughly 4 (because it was under 4 seconds, most likely closer to 3.5) non-repeating button presses per second, or 2.4 per second if you only want to count only ability uses. Optimized movement for many classes requires the same APM, more or less, just depending on which class you're playing. If you don't move properly in BDO, you die instantly. So if you're playing with some degree of skill, you're pushing out over 200 button presses per minute very easily. Again, this is not accounting for camera rotations for micro-movements and ability placements in the middle of combos or movement chains.
Are you implying EQ2 required more button presses per minute than that?
Ok
So the controls and skills still work the same. Just the game is built poorly.
How me a pvp video where you are pressing more buttons, the moment that ability as a GCD (skill cast time) you will be wrong though. So hopefully you can find the right video that proves this before I get any further in this discussion
Like i said before you just have played bdo at lvl 1-30 thought the pve was bad and stopped. Which it would make sense how you might think what you think, never gotten to an advanced point at understanding the gameplay. If you don't understand then you won't be able to play it properly.
PvE content is built poorly and made for kr grinder types. You are killing like a thousand mobs a hour minimum depending where you are grinding. Imagine there was no risk of death in the general PvE you do. That is why PvP is much different as there is a risk of death and changes the flow of the combat as well as players not dying in one tap you use a combo and kill them in 3 (still lame but it also depends on gear score and what point of bdo we are talking about). Though the difficulty in bdo with pvp is catching someone with a cc as you use super armors, i frames, mobility, frontal guards to reduce dmg and reduce cc chance.
This is everquest pvp, he is trying to say because animations don't matter that the animation time equals the skill cast time. That that statement is false because you need to aim your skills and actually hit your target, some skills are very fast, you can cancel skills before they are done and start another one and attack instantly, etc.
And comparing to to the gameplay portion of this video.....Mashing a bunch of buttons doesn't really equal to speed or complex combat to me. Even if you remove skill last times and have all access to like the 50 skills and can use everything instantly that isn't fast gameplay. Its just whoever can type faster. Speed is yes skill use but all other elements as well movement and mobility, speed of your tracking with your cameras to hit targets, speed at which to react to other target, speed to predict and understand movements. Show anyone these two gameplays and its not even a question what people would rather play int his day and age. One has combat the other practically advanced is turn based.
This video speaks for itself
That's precisely why I mentioned proper movement and camera rotation in my last comment. I didn't even bring up how there are multiple pauses/hesitations in certain combos so the CC chain continues properly. Because as you said, it's essentially whoever types the fastest (or button mashing, even) if speed was all that mattered.
I love how both your last few comments and the post made by Azherae don't even scratch the surface of the game's combat, either. You've both been trying to explain the very basics for others to understand where you're coming from, but they still can't (or choose not to) entertain the idea of it having elements in its combat system worthy enough to draw inspiration from.
I've gone on record to say I don't believe BDO combat should be used 1:1 in other MMOs, but choosing to ignore every single part of it because it's "slow" or "button mashing" is ridiculous.
No one said its impossible it's simply an example, all mmorpgs should be looked at for their strengths and weaknesses. There aren't as many examples of action mmorpgs, bdo is one of the best examples to see the fluidity of combat and feel where its easy to test out without needing to get gear or level a character as well. PvE on bdo is something that doesn't need to be looked at as it doesn't really exist, so any relations to combat and pve should not be looked at as it doesn't matter imo.
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