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[Feedback Request] Basic Range Weapon Attack Update and Ranger Demo Discussed in Sept. Livestream

VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
edited November 1 in General Discussion
Hello glorious community,

We’d like your feedback on the Alpha Two Basic Range Weapon Attack Update and Ranger Demo discussed during the September 2022 Development Update Livestream.



To help guide this conversation, here are a few thought starters:
  • What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
  • When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
  • Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
  • Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
Please don’t feel limited by the thought starters above. Feel free to share anything you’d like about Ashes of Creation’s basic melee weapon attacks.

We’ll be compiling a report for the design team on Friday, October 14, 2022, so please try to get your feedback into this thread by then!

Everyone here at Intrepid Studios looks forward to reading all the feedback you have to share!


As a reminder,
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Comments

  • PappasaltPappasalt Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I played through Alpha 1 and I was really hoping you guys kept the hybrid target system after all the debate about it so glad you chose to keep it.

    While watching the ranger gameplay on stream just now it makes me wish there was some type of incentive to play in action combat mode as I feel like it won't be utilized unless incentivized. I mean I prefer it as I enjoy the challenge, heck I'd even like to be able to take the aim assist off. And with that being said I wish there was a way to take the aim assist off and have actual damaged areas of the mob...headshots/bodyshots/etc.

    Also, ofc I have to ask like everyone else, but when is alpha 2? lol.
  • I like their solution of the hybrid targeting mechanics. There is a lot of mobility possible for the Ranger and if you rely on action targeting I would be happy to get some assistance. Otherwise this could be very frustrating.
  • I hope that action shots have a higher range of attack than tab ones.
  • neuroguyneuroguy Member
    edited September 30
    General non-combat related observations/questions
    -The lighting is top notch. Having to move close at the right angle to see the mobs and the dark silhouette in the morning light is superb.
    -The wind effect on trees looks great at a distance but just looks like the plant is shaking/jittering up close.
    -Will the birds fly off if you are stealthing past them? Are they meant to be a visual/audio cues used by players to know if they are being snuck up on?

    Ranged combat related observations/questions:
    The snipe ability and the holding down to do more damage ability seem like no brainers
    -Why would you not snipe as a starter for every mob? Just the cooldown?
    -Is there a consequence to being hit while you have an arrow notched or when you are holding down the basic attack? Otherwise why would you ever not hold for the full duration except for optimizing last hit scenarios.

    -How does (melee) mob AI respond if shot at from a high place that they cannot reach.

    -The action combat arrows: how will they interact with stealth/invisible targets?

    Comparing it to the melee showcase:
    -Melee had a lot of aoe, is it intentional that the ranger is more single target focused? Or did we just not see their aoe moves which are just as common as in melee classes?
  • AshigaruAshigaru Member
    edited October 1
    Liked
    • The sounds of projectile collisions (both the physical hit, and the receiver's verbal grunt) are excellent and add visceral impact. The creature visibly flinching/wobbling in whatever it's currently doing (even if it's not being interrupted or slowed down) is also nice. Great to have both for ranged and melee.
    • The ability to move while firing is smooth and great. Perhaps a slight walk and/or reload speed slowdown when firing while running would help even out pve and pvp relative to melee.
    • Projectile physics and all the cover/dodge/tanking mechanics that can enable - and making it work in tab-mode! The tree blocking the arrow was so cool! Many players do not like curving projectiles endlessly following players unless the skill is designed that way, so it's nice to hear that won't happen.
    Idea Suggestions
    • I prefer tab-targeting, but perhaps a mechanic of headshots/misses can be added to aim-mode to satisfy aimers. Horizontal gameplay extension as Steven put it. A tiny buff if you hit vulnerable spots, but a trade-off of missing or doing less damage if you get sloppy. That way it's fun and beneficial to use in short spurts for bosses and 1v1 pvp, but one can go back to less fatiguing tab-target gameplay when grinding.
    • Small reticle animation during a hit, similar to the Battlefield series. Having both that visual confirmation along with the audible thump helps players stay engaged.
    • Range + attack speed differences between short and long bow, and allow players to manually fire into the sky in arcs to reach out-of-range armies of monsters/players (the reticle suggestion will help with knowing if you hit). Feel free to nerf xp/loot when this is used if it's overpowered in other gameplay, but arrow volleys are awesome for battles!
    • Facing air-cone AOE ability, like a multi-arrow shot. That way there are AOE abilities that not only hit the ground (like the shown leaping blast one), but also ones that can be shot in-air at whatever is in front of you as well. Make full use of the projectile physics and collision detection!
    • Baseline attack speed, draw/reload speed, runspeed while shooting, drawspeed while moving, etc could be separate stats that can be raised by weapon skill stat grinding, not just gear and ability trees. Starting players slow and allowing them to see their character get faster and more fluid over time is great for immersion, and having some disparity among players will help slow down mass pvp and make it more legible. Same for melee and magic, start players off with a slower attack speed and less flashy attack animations, and have them work to improve that over the months they play.
    • Relative volume tuning - the bow creak and squeak are really cool sounds but perhaps could be slightly quieter relative to the arrow thump confirming an impact.
  • VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
    Merged a relevant thread into the official one! ^_^
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  • NiKrNiKr Member
    edited September 30
    Loved it. Speed is good. Tab/action differences looked nice.

    One hope for more differences is action attacks having longer range than tab ones.
  • CCC_HANCCC_HAN Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited October 2

    From what I've seen so far, it looks like the game is going down the path of a similar tab-target combat style to Guild Wars 2, which I appreciate.

    The problem with the action combat system is that it's also related to Guild Wars 2's combat system and not Black Desert Online's or other action combat systems. So many tryhards are going to complain about the action combat system for a good reason.
    The soft lock is at least (for me) a good thing, which I also enjoyed in Naraka: Bladepoint.

    The problem is that they need to develop skills that work both ways, i.e. action and target systems, and have their own advantages when playing either system.

    Another thing I've been disappointed with so far is the abilities. I don't remember which mobile game I played, but I know this kind of ability where you jump over enemies' heads. The ability also looked like it couldn't be used immediately? Maybe I'm wrong, that should be changed if it's not.
    I hope they also add some unique skills later and don't just steal (use standart stuff) "skills" from current games.

    In my opinion, the arrows/bullets + skills should be more visible so you can dodge and use some skills to avoid damage skills you don't want to eat. + The speed level of the arrows may be too fast.



    As for the graphics, yes, the game looks great, but as some people have already mentioned, the wind in the trees looks "wrong", this visual thing needs a change.

    Overall, the stream was fine for me because I like GW2's combat system. So I can't really complain, but I know others will. Since it's the fourth combat system they're developing, I think Intrepreted didn't know which way they wanted to go with the combat system for a long time, since there are way too many people who want/expect something different.
    To make most people happy it will probably take two combat systems, one like GW2 for the tab and something like BDO for the action combat system and merge them together in the end.

    I hope there will be a solution for autohits, even for high damage skills. It would be pretty annoying if a group of 10 rangers stand on a wall etc and just kill the leader of a raid group easily, because he has no way to block/dodge the damage. But as always, time will tell.




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  • BlakenessBlakeness Member
    edited September 30
    Overall the focus on targeted, auto-aiming homing attacks and abilities was very disappointing. I was hoping to see aimed shots fired without a target required. Reticle based target acquisition "hybrid" is essentially still tab targeting.

    There was some discussion during the Q&A about tab vs action combat and the ability to fire manually aimed shots, but it was difficult to determine what this applied to or if a target was still needed. Can you confirm if the abilities shown (the 'basic' arrow shot, snipe, etc) can be fired without a target? If so, is there a damage boost or anything to encourage players to fire them this way to make up for the chance of a miss?
  • PappasaltPappasalt Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Merged a relevant thread into the official one! ^_^

    Sorry didn't see it at the time ty
  • arsnnarsnn Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One
    edited October 1
    My overall impression of the gameplay showcase was not good.

    The showcase of the melee combat looked AAA to me, -> 9/10
    the showcase of the ranged combat looked like Alpha 1.2 to me. -> 3/10

    The mob and player tag was so offsetting it made the game look like UE3, the combat lacked visually clarity and a coherent direction for the ranger and i think its dissapointing to go almost full tab.



    Combat:

    -I think it lacked visually clarity. I wouldnt know whether i hit the Airstrike or not.

    -With the current pace of projectiles, i think its obvious why intrepid decided to go full tab. Going action targeting with those projectiles would mean Intrepid implements a FPS or this New World crap.
    I think an approach to action combat with slower priojectile pace, bigger hitbox, no headshots and more visual clarity in the direction of a mix between smite and bdo rangers could work

    -If the 3 abilities shown are indicative of synergies of abilities in general im disappointed

    -It looks like you are locked into the animations after they are finished

    -I hope there is options to spec into micro mobility abilities with low animation lock (similar to bdo ranger or what we have seen in melee combat udpdate), opposed to the airstrike that takes 3 seconds with a high distance

    -The PvE encounters were rather dull. Although the mobs had abilities they did not really come into play. The mobs seemed like an old school mmo damage dispenser , against which the player couldnt do anything against... no mechanics involved on either side. I think the TTK could be longer.
    Also in this demo it was really hard to recognize mobs in the distance

    UI:
    -The game´s visuals look too good for oldschool MMO UI.
    The visual dissonance of the game art and the ui makes the game look far worse. This becomes apparent when comparing the melee and ranged combat update


    On the positive side:

    -Audio visual feedback improved a lot

    -The player seems to have relative high agency


  • AruganArugan Member, Alpha One
    edited September 30
    As a competitive Bow user in New World and Top bow user in many MMORPGs.

    I am very glad in the direction Ashes is taking with the bow. The bow being fully action is a huge skill gap between the close range. So then you rarely get bow users and even more rare..... good bow users.

    Overall loved the feel, sound, and weight of the bow ashes has shown. Loved that it's mainly tab target.

    The skill animation was amazing the snipe looked beautiful and the jump evasion with the tree...... absolutely amazing. Please make tank and melee moves look just as cool.. please!!!!

    Had a few questions.
    1. Can you dodge the arrows? If so how.. with it being tab target it seems very close to impossible to dodge?
    2. Can non-combatants run into the arrow and get hit?

    Comments:
    1. Maybe have more action-based skills? Change snipe to have to aim and action based not tab.
    2. AOE rain of arrows be action based.
  • I'm kinda disappointed and Steven literally saying ''we lean more towards tab targeting'' was uh..expected but yikes anyway. Spell effects are decent and the mobility ability was cool. Other than that.....4/10 I'd say
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  • I really liked the environment, weather and lighting.
    Great to see that different weapons handle differently. Looking forward to trying out both targeting styles.

    However if trying to replicate how each weapon feels, I think the rate of fire is a little too fast for a bow? Nocking an arrow takes a few seconds. Maybe slow slightly but up the damage?

    If you wanted super realism, if you hold the draw, the longer you draw the more you shake.
    Keep up the good work
  • MoovieMoovie Member
    edited September 30
    What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
    They should automatically hit the target.

    When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
    Different weapons like crossbows, daggers.

    Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
    The Archer in BDO is pretty well done fast pace but also with charging spells with close range abilities aswell.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
    I hope projectile based abilities wont have to be aimed. (stick to TAB targeting for projectiles)

    TLDR: Hitscan abilities = tab/action, Projectile based = TAB only
  • YokYok Member
    Please Ammunition!

    We need Arrows, normal and special.


    About the jumps and hits, they could receive debuff for shooting while jumping, damage reduction or accuracy.

    The rest is pretty exciting.
    :)Thanks for reading.
  • VinnyVinny Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited September 30
    Honestly It all looks awesome, I liked the animations with the exception of too much screen blur, distortion and zoom on the abilities.
    I think the targeting is pretty damn good how it is, I can't wait to try it out in game as that will be the only way to really tell.
    I love the differences between the short and long bows as well as the synergies of them with the abilities.
    I am probably going to main ranger after seeing this 8.5/10

    (Edit)- Please add arrows as a non-consumable equipment slot like a quiver, for example have some with a chance or dmg buff to poison/bleed or have something like higher crit-muti but lower damage or attack speed. Side-grades like these would let people really specialise their build and make it unique.
  • nvrsnvrs Member
    edited September 30
    Tab targeting isn't fun and is why I have always avoided MMO's. Even action mode is just tab targeting/auto aim with extra steps. I was hoping that most of the skills would be manual aiming where the skill gap would be more than skill rotations / gear. This style of combat isn't fun for pvp and seeing this is the direction makes me considerably less interested in playing the game beyond the pve aspect.

    I think many of us wanted manual aiming where you were rewarded for hitting your shots. Headshots etc. If you miss you miss. This is much more rewarding. Also allows other players to avoid shots actually dodge or be evasive.
  • Disappointed with the amount of tab targeting on the bow. We are all ready to move on to action combat these days. Hope this is a serious topic of potential change in the future.
  • xMrWoolfxMrWoolf Member
    edited October 1
    how do you balance action combat melee vrs aimlock/homing projectile/skating 360 noscope rangers? the ranger class can run/jump/dodge and shoot so what options does a melee class have? how do you outplay or survive multiple tab target rangers as melee?
  • PappasaltPappasalt Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited September 30
    What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
    - Positional targeting can be an extremely well defined tool with ranged attacks allowing for actual body/head damage shots etc but essentially I think ranged could benefit greatly from the positional targeting system more so than most so enhancing that more.

    When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
    - I think rangers depending on which fantasy you look at either excel at ranged or are rogue type melee. Sometimes they can do both but then that would be extremely overpowered. What I prefer are the sniper/ranged specialization types. What I don't want to see is something that is extremely overpowered due to the fact they can cover ranged AND melee while having a ton of CC in pvp combat.

    Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
    - As you can tell I'm an action combat type person and I think tab targeting is old generation and needs to go the way of the dodo but with that I enjoyed how Tera did rangers which I think is akin to BDO as well with something like you guys are doing with not only a spam but a press hold system...perhaps a minigame of holding till hitting the right spot for a crit etc.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
    - I'd say excited about the possibilities that you guys can do with ranged attacks and the fact that it is looking nice already as an alpha 1/2. Worried about I'd say like above that a ranged class that has mobility/cc/etc can be hard to balance.

    PS. Give action combat some type of buff for incentivizing use.
  • bosheanboshean Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Can the ranger 3, the flip Movement/CC, change the users Z level in game, like using it to climb a hill or get atop a roof in town?
  • ButtercupCloverButtercupClover Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I'm not a big archer fan so I won't be able to give many positives.

    I like how the action combat has the ability to tab targets still and lock your target. Most tab target games make it hard for you to tab onto the target you want and just cycles through nearby targets instead of where you're screen is aimed at.

    Tab target is obviously the easiest way to make archers work, but it's also the most difficult to balance. When a ranged attack is locked on it won't miss, so there doesn't seem to be many ways to play against it if you find yourself in an open field.

    Another thing is the shortbow seems much more viable than the longbow in most combat situations. Players in the middle of battle don't want to have to manage how long they pull the bow back to maximize damage, they will want to just hold down the attack button and run around.

    Lastly on the Ranger skill side, the quick shot debuff that gets applied to an enemy is a bit worrying. It would probably be better to apply a buff to the character casting it than a debuff to the target as a party of multiple archers would be able to keep that debuff up permanently without issue.
  • Liked:
    I think the ranged mechanics, movement while basic attacking, and abilities look good.

    The environment is still looking amazing.

    Didn't like/concerns:
    The time to kill seems a bit quick, but it might just be because the quickshot ability does a huge amount of damage, especially compared to snipe which seemed about right.

    The other concern I have after seeing this is that you lose your softlock when your crosshair is no longer on the enemy. Maybe it has to be so your character will face the same way as the camera, but if you can click to lock on this shouldn't be the case. I think the softlock should stay on the most recently targeted enemy as long as they're within a certain range.

    I also wonder about how many movement abilities (especially ranged) players will have. Combat is overly chaotic when every character can has 5 long jump and dash abilities without pretty long cooldowns, especially when there's a basic roll already built in.
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  • M1ghtyJesusM1ghtyJesus Member
    edited September 30
    tab targeting in pvp feels like it will lower the skill ceiling for ranged play significantly. How will the pvp combat feel competitive when the ranged combat lacks skill based combat or even skill shots for the main abilities, how will melee players contend with multiple ranged combatants who literally cant miss?
  • keyframekeyframe Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    Mechanics wise I really liked what I saw, like with the melee preview looking and playing are two different things but overall super happy with the design choices being made. I would only say the differences need to be pushed a bit more. The longbow personally should be a bit slower to fire but hit a lot harder, also have a longer range, and maybe a decrease to hit%. While the shortbow should be shorter range, faster to fire, but do less damage.

    Looks wise stuff is obviously still being worked on, as stated by Steven, however there is one thing that I very much think needs to be changed / addressed. The longbow needs to be WAY longer, like twice as big as it is now. I honestly thought it was the shortbow in the video before Steven mentioned it wasn't. This would also help with visual indication for pvp purposes.

    Besides that I liked what I saw and look forward to testing it out myself.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I think the important part is for the basic weapon attack to play a role in combat and not just be a filler (which you are doing).

    I liked how the different range weapons had different range attacks. I liked that you could charge up the shot with the long bow.
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  • DeepwoodDeepwood Member
    edited September 30
    Honestly I’m a big Ranger and ranged combat fan! Therefore I’m so excited to see some Ranger Gameplay finally. And you didn't disappoint me! What I have seen so far has blowing me away and is exactly what I was hoping and looking for!
    The air strike skill is so amazing. Haven't seen nothing comparable in other games! But also the mechanic of the snipe skill is really great.
    Animations and sounds are so good and the style is absolutely beautiful.
    Being mobile even by using the longbow is a great concept. Other games often force players to be static which isn't fun. And by using the short bow you are even faster and mobile. Great!

    Coming to the probably most discussed topic: targeting. I really love the way to give the players the freedom to choose from a classic tab targeting system or an action based mode. Both of them have their pros and cons, so that I'm fine with that. By getting some assistance in the action mode I'm also happy with. Being mobile and to be forced to play like a shooter game can be frustrating in my opinion when playing a MMO. So absolutely the right choice.

    Let me shortly summarize the positive things I like so much:
    + two different bow types with different play styles
    + hybrid targeting with tab based and action mode
    + the combat and using the skills are very fluent and mobile
    + great bow and arrow sounds
    + snipe skill mechanics by holding the button
    + air strike mechanics and animation
    + impact on the target is great
    + no ammunition mechanics
    + bow type specializations
    + class sign art upper left is very beautiful
    + cloth/armor and bow style

    Open:
    o Will there be a minimum range to engage a target? Hope not!
    o Will there be side and/or back quivers as cosmetic item in addition to cloaks? Hope so!

    Negativ:
    - nothing to complain, I’m so happy!

    Steven also mentioned some other skills that the Ranger will get. That's sounds so amazing that I hope to see some more Ranger Gameplay and new skills in the next month.
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
    The freedom of movement looked great. The multi use aspects of the abilities, like using the root/vines ability for both cc and as a movement ability, was spot on. Please keeps the abilities fluid so that we can use them in creative ways.

    When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
    I want to see fluid and multi use abilities. I want to feel like I have a bag of tools to work with how ever I choose as opposed to a locked in set of rigid abilities.
    I don't want to see rooted game-play. Stopping to aim/power up a shot is fine but I want to be moving most of the time during combat.

    Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
    Scatter Shot in WoW - Fast use escape ability.
    Aimed Shot in WoW - Slow buildup, rooted, damage burst.
    Traps in WoW - Abilities to prepare the battle field on the fly.
    Point Blank Shot in GW2 - Push back escape ability.
    Barrage in GW2 - Good aoe damage ability.
    Disengage in WoW - Movement based escape.
    These outline the basics of a tool kit an archer needs, but to be honest the basics of what you showed during this stream look far better than the bowman I've played elsewhere. I love the direction you are going with range.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
    - Excited to see the versatility the basic kit seems to provide. Even just the basic set you showed during stream offer tons of combat options. I above all else want abilities that I can use in creative/unexpected ways.
    - The speed and pacing looked great. The Long Bow looked great, but please do not slow it down more than where you have it. I think anything slower would feel sluggish.
    - No ammo is great, but it was suggested that special ammo types could be used to various effects. That sounds great and would be something that could be limited by supply.
  • HartwellHartwell Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I was worried that ranged combat might be difficult to balance, due to all the factors that can influence aiming a projectile in an MMO. Latency is among one of them. This form of hybrid combat is something I feel most people will find to be familiar, while also keeping external factors to a minimum in large scale combat. It is a good selection of basic attacks!

    Having projectiles intercepted by first target to collide with them is something that will be interesting to see as a game mechanic. I would like to see how that might play a role in how tanks operate and give meaning to stationing rangers in elevated areas.
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