[Feedback Request] Basic Range Weapon Attack Update and Ranger Demo Discussed in Sept. Livestream

Hello glorious community,

We’d like your feedback on the Alpha Two Basic Range Weapon Attack Update and Ranger Demo discussed during the September 2022 Development Update Livestream.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0257a-goFwE

To help guide this conversation, here are a few thought starters:

What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?

Please don’t feel limited by the thought starters above. Feel free to share anything you’d like about Ashes of Creation’s basic melee weapon attacks.

We’ll be compiling a report for the design team on Friday, October 14, 2022, so please try to get your feedback into this thread by then!

Everyone here at Intrepid Studios looks forward to reading all the feedback you have to share!

—
As a reminder,

Ashes of Creation utilizes a HYBRID combat system! ^_^
This means it is NOT an action or tab combat only game.
What was shown on stream was not a full demo of combat or of the Ranger archetype. It was a demonstration of the basic range weapon attacks and a sneak peek at the Ranger archetype
Ashes of Creation will feature abilities that are both tab target and action combat.
Here is a clip of Steven explaining our hybrid combat system
To provide a visual aid, here is a clip from our Alpha One which showcases an earlier look at our hybrid combat system prior to our September Development Update.

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Comments

Pappasalt

I played through Alpha 1 and I was really hoping you guys kept the hybrid target system after all the debate about it so glad you chose to keep it.

While watching the ranger gameplay on stream just now it makes me wish there was some type of incentive to play in action combat mode as I feel like it won't be utilized unless incentivized. I mean I prefer it as I enjoy the challenge, heck I'd even like to be able to take the aim assist off. And with that being said I wish there was a way to take the aim assist off and have actual damaged areas of the mob...headshots/bodyshots/etc.

Also, ofc I have to ask like everyone else, but when is alpha 2? lol.

Deepwood

I like their solution of the hybrid targeting mechanics. There is a lot of mobility possible for the Ranger and if you rely on action targeting I would be happy to get some assistance. Otherwise this could be very frustrating.

Ludullu

I hope that action shots have a higher range of attack than tab ones.

neuroguy

General non-combat related observations/questions
-The lighting is top notch. Having to move close at the right angle to see the mobs and the dark silhouette in the morning light is superb.
-The wind effect on trees looks great at a distance but just looks like the plant is shaking/jittering up close.
-Will the birds fly off if you are stealthing past them? Are they meant to be a visual/audio cues used by players to know if they are being snuck up on?

Ranged combat related observations/questions:
The snipe ability and the holding down to do more damage ability seem like no brainers
-Why would you not snipe as a starter for every mob? Just the cooldown?
-Is there a consequence to being hit while you have an arrow notched or when you are holding down the basic attack? Otherwise why would you ever not hold for the full duration except for optimizing last hit scenarios.

-How does (melee) mob AI respond if shot at from a high place that they cannot reach.

-The action combat arrows: how will they interact with stealth/invisible targets?

Comparing it to the melee showcase:
-Melee had a lot of aoe, is it intentional that the ranger is more single target focused? Or did we just not see their aoe moves which are just as common as in melee classes?

Ashigaru

Liked

The sounds of projectile collisions (both the physical hit, and the receiver's verbal grunt) are excellent and add visceral impact. The creature visibly flinching/wobbling in whatever it's currently doing (even if it's not being interrupted or slowed down) is also nice. Great to have both for ranged and melee.
The ability to move while firing is smooth and great. Perhaps a slight walk and/or reload speed slowdown when firing while running would help even out pve and pvp relative to melee.
Projectile physics and all the cover/dodge/tanking mechanics that can enable - and making it work in tab-mode! The tree blocking the arrow was so cool! Many players do not like curving projectiles endlessly following players unless the skill is designed that way, so it's nice to hear that won't happen.

Idea Suggestions

I prefer tab-targeting, but perhaps a mechanic of headshots/misses can be added to aim-mode to satisfy aimers. Horizontal gameplay extension as Steven put it. A tiny buff if you hit vulnerable spots, but a trade-off of missing or doing less damage if you get sloppy. That way it's fun and beneficial to use in short spurts for bosses and 1v1 pvp, but one can go back to less fatiguing tab-target gameplay when grinding.
Small reticle animation during a hit, similar to the Battlefield series. Having both that visual confirmation along with the audible thump helps players stay engaged.
Range + attack speed differences between short and long bow, and allow players to manually fire into the sky in arcs to reach out-of-range armies of monsters/players (the reticle suggestion will help with knowing if you hit). Feel free to nerf xp/loot when this is used if it's overpowered in other gameplay, but arrow volleys are awesome for battles!
Facing air-cone AOE ability, like a multi-arrow shot. That way there are AOE abilities that not only hit the ground (like the shown leaping blast one), but also ones that can be shot in-air at whatever is in front of you as well. Make full use of the projectile physics and collision detection!
Baseline attack speed, draw/reload speed, runspeed while shooting, drawspeed while moving, etc could be separate stats that can be raised by weapon skill stat grinding, not just gear and ability trees. Starting players slow and allowing them to see their character get faster and more fluid over time is great for immersion, and having some disparity among players will help slow down mass pvp and make it more legible. Same for melee and magic, start players off with a slower attack speed and less flashy attack animations, and have them work to improve that over the months they play.
Relative volume tuning - the bow creak and squeak are really cool sounds but perhaps could be slightly quieter relative to the arrow thump confirming an impact.

Vaknar

Merged a relevant thread into the official one! ^_^

Ludullu

Loved it. Speed is good. Tab/action differences looked nice.

One hope for more differences is action attacks having longer range than tab ones.

Blakeness

Overall the focus on targeted, auto-aiming homing attacks and abilities was very disappointing. I was hoping to see aimed shots fired without a target required. Reticle based target acquisition "hybrid" is essentially still tab targeting.

There was some discussion during the Q&A about tab vs action combat and the ability to fire manually aimed shots, but it was difficult to determine what this applied to or if a target was still needed. Can you confirm if the abilities shown (the 'basic' arrow shot, snipe, etc) can be fired without a target? If so, is there a damage boost or anything to encourage players to fire them this way to make up for the chance of a miss?

Pappasalt

Vaknar wrote: »

Merged a relevant thread into the official one! ^_^

Sorry didn't see it at the time ty

arsnn

My overall impression of the gameplay showcase was not good.

The showcase of the melee combat looked AAA to me, -> 9/10
the showcase of the ranged combat looked like Alpha 1.2 to me. -> 3/10

The mob and player tag was so offsetting it made the game look like UE3, the combat lacked visually clarity and a coherent direction for the ranger and i think its dissapointing to go almost full tab.

Combat:

-I think it lacked visually clarity. I wouldnt know whether i hit the Airstrike or not.

-With the current pace of projectiles, i think its obvious why intrepid decided to go full tab. Going action targeting with those projectiles would mean Intrepid implements a FPS or this New World crap.
I think an approach to action combat with slower priojectile pace, bigger hitbox, no headshots and more visual clarity in the direction of a mix between smite and bdo rangers could work

-If the 3 abilities shown are indicative of synergies of abilities in general im disappointed

-It looks like you are locked into the animations after they are finished

-I hope there is options to spec into micro mobility abilities with low animation lock (similar to bdo ranger or what we have seen in melee combat udpdate), opposed to the airstrike that takes 3 seconds with a high distance

-The PvE encounters were rather dull. Although the mobs had abilities they did not really come into play. The mobs seemed like an old school mmo damage dispenser , against which the player couldnt do anything against... no mechanics involved on either side. I think the TTK could be longer.
Also in this demo it was really hard to recognize mobs in the distance

UI:
-The game´s visuals look too good for oldschool MMO UI.
The visual dissonance of the game art and the ui makes the game look far worse. This becomes apparent when comparing the melee and ranged combat update

On the positive side:

-Audio visual feedback improved a lot

-The player seems to have relative high agency

Arugan

As a competitive Bow user in New World and Top bow user in many MMORPGs.

I am very glad in the direction Ashes is taking with the bow. The bow being fully action is a huge skill gap between the close range. So then you rarely get bow users and even more rare..... good bow users.

Overall loved the feel, sound, and weight of the bow ashes has shown. Loved that it's mainly tab target.

The skill animation was amazing the snipe looked beautiful and the jump evasion with the tree...... absolutely amazing. Please make tank and melee moves look just as cool.. please!!!!

Had a few questions.
1. Can you dodge the arrows? If so how.. with it being tab target it seems very close to impossible to dodge?
2. Can non-combatants run into the arrow and get hit?

Comments:
1. Maybe have more action-based skills? Change snipe to have to aim and action based not tab.
2. AOE rain of arrows be action based.

Magic Man

I'm kinda disappointed and Steven literally saying ''we lean more towards tab targeting'' was uh..expected but yikes anyway. Spell effects are decent and the mobility ability was cool. Other than that.....4/10 I'd say

Thystle

I really liked the environment, weather and lighting.
Great to see that different weapons handle differently. Looking forward to trying out both targeting styles.

However if trying to replicate how each weapon feels, I think the rate of fire is a little too fast for a bow? Nocking an arrow takes a few seconds. Maybe slow slightly but up the damage?

If you wanted super realism, if you hold the draw, the longer you draw the more you shake.
Keep up the good work

Moovie

What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
They should automatically hit the target.

When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
Different weapons like crossbows, daggers.

Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
The Archer in BDO is pretty well done fast pace but also with charging spells with close range abilities aswell.

Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I hope projectile based abilities wont have to be aimed. (stick to TAB targeting for projectiles)

TLDR: Hitscan abilities = tab/action, Projectile based = TAB only

Koodai

Please Ammunition!

We need Arrows, normal and special.

About the jumps and hits, they could receive debuff for shooting while jumping, damage reduction or accuracy.

The rest is pretty exciting.

Vinny

Honestly It all looks awesome, I liked the animations with the exception of too much screen blur, distortion and zoom on the abilities.
I think the targeting is pretty damn good how it is, I can't wait to try it out in game as that will be the only way to really tell.
I love the differences between the short and long bows as well as the synergies of them with the abilities.
I am probably going to main ranger after seeing this 8.5/10

(Edit)- Please add arrows as a non-consumable equipment slot like a quiver, for example have some with a chance or dmg buff to poison/bleed or have something like higher crit-muti but lower damage or attack speed. Side-grades like these would let people really specialise their build and make it unique.

nvrs

Tab targeting isn't fun and is why I have always avoided MMO's. Even action mode is just tab targeting/auto aim with extra steps. I was hoping that most of the skills would be manual aiming where the skill gap would be more than skill rotations / gear. This style of combat isn't fun for pvp and seeing this is the direction makes me considerably less interested in playing the game beyond the pve aspect.

I think many of us wanted manual aiming where you were rewarded for hitting your shots. Headshots etc. If you miss you miss. This is much more rewarding. Also allows other players to avoid shots actually dodge or be evasive.

Epherium_Alec

Disappointed with the amount of tab targeting on the bow. We are all ready to move on to action combat these days. Hope this is a serious topic of potential change in the future.

xMrWoolf

how do you balance action combat melee vrs aimlock/homing projectile/skating 360 noscope rangers? the ranger class can run/jump/dodge and shoot so what options does a melee class have? how do you outplay or survive multiple tab target rangers as melee?

Pappasalt

What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
- Positional targeting can be an extremely well defined tool with ranged attacks allowing for actual body/head damage shots etc but essentially I think ranged could benefit greatly from the positional targeting system more so than most so enhancing that more.

When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
- I think rangers depending on which fantasy you look at either excel at ranged or are rogue type melee. Sometimes they can do both but then that would be extremely overpowered. What I prefer are the sniper/ranged specialization types. What I don't want to see is something that is extremely overpowered due to the fact they can cover ranged AND melee while having a ton of CC in pvp combat.

Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
- As you can tell I'm an action combat type person and I think tab targeting is old generation and needs to go the way of the dodo but with that I enjoyed how Tera did rangers which I think is akin to BDO as well with something like you guys are doing with not only a spam but a press hold system...perhaps a minigame of holding till hitting the right spot for a crit etc.

Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
- I'd say excited about the possibilities that you guys can do with ranged attacks and the fact that it is looking nice already as an alpha 1/2. Worried about I'd say like above that a ranged class that has mobility/cc/etc can be hard to balance.

PS. Give action combat some type of buff for incentivizing use.

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