I think you just have to spend more time assessing where people agree with you in addition to where they don't.
In the Ashes game design, you can't unflag. Especially not during combat.
I told you that you didn't know how PvP flagging works in Ashes. You could have asked for more info or checked the wiki for more info.
But, you decided I was an ass and you knew better than I did.
That's all about your ego.
Here we go agaaaain.
At what point did I talk about unflagging during combat.
My points are corruption Bombing, and people giving away gear/mats to not lose it if they gain corrupting after killing people allowing alt or low level take it back to town.
Only ego here is yours as I was done with the point as I was given info on one of the major concerns i had, and you are cycling back to flagging and making no sense to me. It doesn't matter if you can't unflagged unless you go back to town.
Honestly don't say go check the wiki cause you don't know. If i have a problem explain it and use the wiki why that isn't a thing. If your method is telling everyone in a discussion to check every piece of information or don't talk about it, that sounds like ego to me.
Compared to if you said it is designed so AOE can not hit non combatant targets so there for trying to forcefully lower someone's corruption with a alt would be difficult or not possible
It's also not a BDO karma system of +-. It's a binary system of "you're either corrupted (red) or not". And then if you are corrupted, there's the severity of penalty depending on how much corruption you have. So you don't decrease someone else's corruption, you increase it by dying to them w/o attacking them.
Compared to if you said it is designed so AOE can not hit non combatant targets so there for trying to forcefully lower someone's corruption with a alt would be difficult or not possible
It's also not a BDO karma system of +-. It's a binary system of "you're either corrupted (red) or not". And then if you are corrupted, there's the severity of penalty depending on how much corruption you have. So you don't decrease someone else's corruption, you increase it by dying to them w/o attacking them.
That corruption number is a + though and a dangerous one.
The good part is that is enough to ruin a PvE's day by killing him only once
With just one such kill, bounty hunters will not see you and you can run away with the loot and clean the corruption.
Imagine somebody else killing that PvE player again once he filled his mule with resources
PKers will already be limited in their quantity. On top of that each new kill on a PKer will give them more and more corruption (that is if the PK count removal is real hard and expensive). And on top of that PKing super casuals, whose day would in fact be ruined by a single death, will be even rarer because there'd be no benefit in doing so, which limits the amount of PKers would do that even more.
Also, killing the mule is the same as killing a character, so you'll get double the corruption if you do that. Which will put you deeper into the hole.
You maybe use the PK to refer to players who kill for pleasure?
I see only the economic benefit.
If valuable resources spawn near a few nodes, those citizens will not see others coming from across the map to collect them.
I see PKers as just that - people who kill other people w/o their victims fighting back. Anything else is a pvper.
I am curios... do the caravans show who is transporting resources?
You may end up protecting the caravans of both your citizens and enemy guild players too, if they mix togheter anonymously.
Don't think we have info on that. We know that Caravans will indicate what they're carrying through visuals, but don't think we've heard anything about other indicators. That could be a good question for the stream.
Actually smart PKs should kill mainly combatants, corrupted players or lure non-combatants to flag, so they will not take corruption hit themselves.
Those are not PKers then. They're just pvpers. Or is that the joke you were trying to make?
Not a joke. There is not just one ultimate definition for PK. I have used to PK used whenever a player goes kill other players no matter what is the status of the target. I bet there is cultural differencies especially between different games. Anyhow, point was that because corruption system seams to be quite harsh imo (not saying for sure before testing though) it would need PKs to adapt to the situation if they want to maximise efficiency unless they are killing non-combatants just for fun.
Not a joke. There is not just one ultimate definition for PK. I have used to PK used whenever a player goes kill other players no matter what is the status of the target. I bet there is cultural differencies especially between different games. Anyhow, point was that because corruption system seams to be quite harsh imo (not saying for sure before testing though) it would need PKs to adapt to the situation if they want to maximise efficiency unless they are killing non-combatants just for fun.
I guess it's my experience/bias from L2, but to me PKer and PvPer are two different things, with different connotations and results. And due to AoC's flagging system being the same, I apply my L2's definition's to Ashes.
You become corrupted only if you kill someone who doesn't fight back. That makes you a PlayerKiller. You don't become that in any other case, so they're all just PvPing.
I don't really care which way the game leans. But I will say this...
That other game started out as a pure open world PvP game. It turned into a complete gankfest as you would expect with people sitting in spawn zones killing everything indiscriminately.
So, they tried to mitigate it a little as AoC will be attempting. That didn't work so they tried to mitigate it a lot and that didn't work either.
No one cared about the consequences because in a worst case scenario you can just use a different account.
Ashe's wont be attempting to limit the number of accounts people have so indeed people will absolutely be running multiple accounts to circumvent negative actions for indiscriminate PvP.
You can apply this to every aspect of the game where there are limits or restrictions meant to be placed on gameplay. The larger guilds are going to purchase many spare accounts to hand out to specific people.
If I remember correctly Ashe's will be monthly subscription only? This would make it even easier to do than some games because there is no upfront cost barrier to owning multiple accounts.
Account A gets hot from ganking. Register account B and gank until account A is clean. Need a little more time to cool off? Register account C. At this point I can't imagine needing any more accounts to circumvent any ingame limitations. This totals a maximum of $45/month. $45/month is historically a drop in the bucket for the average modern day MMORPG player, to the point of being meaningless.
Not a joke. There is not just one ultimate definition for PK. I have used to PK used whenever a player goes kill other players no matter what is the status of the target. I bet there is cultural differencies especially between different games. Anyhow, point was that because corruption system seams to be quite harsh imo (not saying for sure before testing though) it would need PKs to adapt to the situation if they want to maximise efficiency unless they are killing non-combatants just for fun.
I guess it's my experience/bias from L2, but to me PKer and PvPer are two different things, with different connotations and results. And due to AoC's flagging system being the same, I apply my L2's definition's to Ashes.
You become corrupted only if you kill someone who doesn't fight back. That makes you a PlayerKiller. You don't become that in any other case, so they're all just PvPing.
Yeah I understand your point and I have saw people using words such PvPer, PK, Ganker, Griefer different ways and those can have different meaning to individual players. I guess it is vain to argue about the "right" definitions.
Anyway, from my experience flagged players are not necessarily fighting back if they are surprised or outnumbered or carrying something valueable. However, my owPvP experience comes mainly from Albion and somewhat from WoW and Runescape. Therefore, it might be that Lineage's definition about PK is closer to Ashes than Albion's for example if the rules are somewhat similar in L2 and AoC.
P.s. Some people are even talking about solo ganking even the original meaning refers to a group activity...
I don't really care which way the game leans. But I will say this...
That other game started out as a pure open world PvP game. It turned into a complete gankfest as you would expect with people sitting in spawn zones killing everything indiscriminately.
So, they tried to mitigate it a little as AoC will be attempting. That didn't work so they tried to mitigate it a lot and that didn't work either.
No one cared about the consequences because in a worst case scenario you can just use a different account.
Ashe's wont be attempting to limit the number of accounts people have so indeed people will absolutely be running multiple accounts to circumvent negative actions for indiscriminate PvP.
You can apply this to every aspect of the game where there are limits or restrictions meant to be placed on gameplay. The larger guilds are going to purchase many spare accounts to hand out to specific people.
If I remember correctly Ashe's will be monthly subscription only? This would make it even easier to do than some games because there is no upfront cost barrier to owning multiple accounts.
Account A gets hot from ganking. Register account B and gank until account A is clean. Need a little more time to cool off? Register account C. At this point I can't imagine needing any more accounts to circumvent any ingame limitations. This totals a maximum of $45/month. $45/month is historically a drop in the bucket for the average modern day MMORPG player, to the point of being meaningless.
If you put that amount of time to get geared and lvled on multiple accounts that would be a lot of work. The more people you kill the more stats you lose do to being corrupted. They systems are well designed in preventing heavy gankers if you jut think about it. Red players are free pks, can drop gear, get lower stats, etc.
If its a guild dec you are out of luck and prob should head back to town.
Account A gets hot from ganking. Register account B and gank until account A is clean. Need a little more time to cool off? Register account C. At this point I can't imagine needing any more accounts to circumvent any ingame limitations. This totals a maximum of $45/month. $45/month is historically a drop in the bucket for the average modern day MMORPG player, to the point of being meaningless.
I know I won't be the one suffering from this kind of scheme, but if people have several accounts filled with several fully (or at least greatly) leveled characters just to gank a few dozen people once a week (if more often if they're literally operating the accounts with a whole group of people) - that's their right. Cause that is so damn much resources just to kill a few casuals that I can only admire the dedication.
Though at that point I got no fucking clue why wouldn't they just farm whatever they need through normal means, if they have groups of people that are so dedicated to the game.
Account A gets hot from ganking. Register account B and gank until account A is clean. Need a little more time to cool off? Register account C. At this point I can't imagine needing any more accounts to circumvent any ingame limitations. This totals a maximum of $45/month. $45/month is historically a drop in the bucket for the average modern day MMORPG player, to the point of being meaningless.
I know I won't be the one suffering from this kind of scheme, but if people have several accounts filled with several fully (or at least greatly) leveled characters just to gank a few dozen people once a week (if more often if they're literally operating the accounts with a whole group of people) - that's their right. Cause that is so damn much resources just to kill a few casuals that I can only admire the dedication.
Though at that point I got no fucking clue why wouldn't they just farm whatever they need through normal means, if they have groups of people that are so dedicated to the game.
Because the entire point is to hurt the casuals. That IS the gameplay.
Because the entire point is to hurt the casuals. That IS the gameplay.
Yeah, I guess so. To me this kind of thinking is as alien as Noaani's defense of hardcore pve I guess I grew up in such a "proper pvp" bubble, that both extremes are too far from me. Or at least that's how I look back on my history in L2. There's probably some nostalgia bias too.
Because the entire point is to hurt the casuals. That IS the gameplay.
Yeah, I guess so. To me this kind of thinking is as alien as Noaani's defense of hardcore pve I guess I grew up in such a "proper pvp" bubble, that both extremes are too far from me. Or at least that's how I look back on my history in L2. There's probably some nostalgia bias too.
Actually, I realized I gave too short an answer.
It's not just griefing.
If I kill you and take half your stuff, I am twice as far ahead of you as I would be if we both gathered our own stuff separately.
Other ways this works well, especially against newbies who don't have guilds yet:
Extortion.
Protection Rackets (related to the above but different).
Gaslighting (this one is complicated to do before you have power on the server but VERY easy once you have it, especially in a game with anonymous alts)
Creating double agents and spies through the above.
Good cop/bad cop emotional manipulation.
Economic blockades and shutdowns explicitly targeting the weaker players.
Piracy against players with large investments that were used to their area being safe.
These are just the ones off the top of my head.
I believe all of these are intended design, and it would be incredibly beneficial (in some cases required) to have a geared alt for these purposes.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
1
bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I don't really care which way the game leans. But I will say this...
That other game started out as a pure open world PvP game. It turned into a complete gankfest as you would expect with people sitting in spawn zones killing everything indiscriminately.
So, they tried to mitigate it a little as AoC will be attempting. That didn't work so they tried to mitigate it a lot and that didn't work either.
No one cared about the consequences because in a worst case scenario you can just use a different account.
Ashe's wont be attempting to limit the number of accounts people have so indeed people will absolutely be running multiple accounts to circumvent negative actions for indiscriminate PvP.
You can apply this to every aspect of the game where there are limits or restrictions meant to be placed on gameplay. The larger guilds are going to purchase many spare accounts to hand out to specific people.
If I remember correctly Ashe's will be monthly subscription only? This would make it even easier to do than some games because there is no upfront cost barrier to owning multiple accounts.
Account A gets hot from ganking. Register account B and gank until account A is clean. Need a little more time to cool off? Register account C. At this point I can't imagine needing any more accounts to circumvent any ingame limitations. This totals a maximum of $45/month. $45/month is historically a drop in the bucket for the average modern day MMORPG player, to the point of being meaningless.
Corruption won't wear off over time. Only through XP gain and death. Going full corrupted and logging off for a month you would come back to the same level of corruption.
Leveling is expected to take a fair amount of time. So leveling several characters is doable but time heavy.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
The corruption system is harsh. But it should be so, as killing people who dont want to fight needs to be punished.
Its a give take system too tho, as fighting back means you keep more of the loot you would otherwise lose while staying green.
Yeah I agree. However, you can also as a PK wish that greens will fight back. Okay you get half as much loot but you do not get corruption and you can continue killing more people without penalties.
Because the entire point is to hurt the casuals. That IS the gameplay.
Yeah, I guess so. To me this kind of thinking is as alien as Noaani's defense of hardcore pve I guess I grew up in such a "proper pvp" bubble, that both extremes are too far from me. Or at least that's how I look back on my history in L2. There's probably some nostalgia bias too.
Back in the day (and I would argue that this also includes any game that is mostly played for nostalgic value), the idea of having a good time by literally ruining the fun others are having wasn't really a thing.
Now it is.
In Archeage, people used to spend literal hours (as in, 12 or more per day) just sitting in their wagon on a bridge. This would block the bridge for all others, essentially cutting off trade. These people weren't doing anything, but were present the entire time (Trion could despawn them if they weren't present). Their idea of fun - for half the day or more, 7 days a week, for literal months - was to just ruin other peoples enjoyment.
Trion bought the issue to XL for them to do something about, but XL refused to believe people would be that ridiculous, and said Trion must be exaggerating. I was asked by some people I knew from Trion to make as big a fuss about it on the forums as I could - and was told that the thread I do it in basically wouldn't be closed (barring real life threats).
Not surprisingly, I had fun with that.
XL saw the thread, and made changes to the game to prevent it happening.
Point is, people absolutely will play a game with the sole intent of handing out a bad time to others. Self progression isn't really a concern (past what progression needs to be made to achieve the objective), and time isn't really a concern either.
These people get the same kick from someone saying "fuck you", or "you're such a dick" as someone like me gets from killing an encounter that has stumped my guild for a month, or like someone such as yourself would get from winning a siege.
This type of gameplay is as foreign to me as it is to you. I've seen it from the outside, but I don't understand what kind of person this is - only that they exist.
Ashes absolutely will attract these people for the first 6 months of the games life, and Intrepid need to design the game around the notion that if people can do things like this, they will.
Because the entire point is to hurt the casuals. That IS the gameplay.
Yeah, I guess so. To me this kind of thinking is as alien as Noaani's defense of hardcore pve I guess I grew up in such a "proper pvp" bubble, that both extremes are too far from me. Or at least that's how I look back on my history in L2. There's probably some nostalgia bias too.
Back in the day (and I would argue that this also includes any game that is mostly played for nostalgic value), the idea of having a good time by literally ruining the fun others are having wasn't really a thing.
Now it is.
In Archeage, people used to spend literal hours (as in, 12 or more per day) just sitting in their wagon on a bridge. This would block the bridge for all others, essentially cutting off trade. These people weren't doing anything, but were present the entire time (Trion could despawn them if they weren't present). Their idea of fun - for half the day or more, 7 days a week, for literal months - was to just ruin other peoples enjoyment.
Trion bought the issue to XL for them to do something about, but XL refused to believe people would be that ridiculous, and said Trion must be exaggerating. I was asked by some people I knew from Trion to make as big a fuss about it on the forums as I could - and was told that the thread I do it in basically wouldn't be closed (barring real life threats).
Not surprisingly, I had fun with that.
XL saw the thread, and made changes to the game to prevent it happening.
Point is, people absolutely will play a game with the sole intent of handing out a bad time to others. Self progression isn't really a concern (past what progression needs to be made to achieve the objective), and time isn't really a concern either.
These people get the same kick from someone saying "fuck you", or "you're such a dick" as someone like me gets from killing an encounter that has stumped my guild for a month, or like someone such as yourself would get from winning a siege.
This type of gameplay is as foreign to me as it is to you. I've seen it from the outside, but I don't understand what kind of person this is - only that they exist.
Ashes absolutely will attract these people for the first 6 months of the games life, and Intrepid need to design the game around the notion that if people can do things like this, they will.
People 100% will that is why I try to raise red flags about it if there is any way systems can be exploited.
Because the entire point is to hurt the casuals. That IS the gameplay.
Yeah, I guess so. To me this kind of thinking is as alien as Noaani's defense of hardcore pve I guess I grew up in such a "proper pvp" bubble, that both extremes are too far from me. Or at least that's how I look back on my history in L2. There's probably some nostalgia bias too.
Back in the day (and I would argue that this also includes any game that is mostly played for nostalgic value), the idea of having a good time by literally ruining the fun others are having wasn't really a thing.
Now it is.
In Archeage, people used to spend literal hours (as in, 12 or more per day) just sitting in their wagon on a bridge. This would block the bridge for all others, essentially cutting off trade. These people weren't doing anything, but were present the entire time (Trion could despawn them if they weren't present). Their idea of fun - for half the day or more, 7 days a week, for literal months - was to just ruin other peoples enjoyment.
Trion bought the issue to XL for them to do something about, but XL refused to believe people would be that ridiculous, and said Trion must be exaggerating. I was asked by some people I knew from Trion to make as big a fuss about it on the forums as I could - and was told that the thread I do it in basically wouldn't be closed (barring real life threats).
Not surprisingly, I had fun with that.
XL saw the thread, and made changes to the game to prevent it happening.
Point is, people absolutely will play a game with the sole intent of handing out a bad time to others. Self progression isn't really a concern (past what progression needs to be made to achieve the objective), and time isn't really a concern either.
These people get the same kick from someone saying "fuck you", or "you're such a dick" as someone like me gets from killing an encounter that has stumped my guild for a month, or like someone such as yourself would get from winning a siege.
This type of gameplay is as foreign to me as it is to you. I've seen it from the outside, but I don't understand what kind of person this is - only that they exist.
Ashes absolutely will attract these people for the first 6 months of the games life, and Intrepid need to design the game around the notion that if people can do things like this, they will.
People 100% will that is why I try to raise red flags about it if there is any way systems can be exploited.
Being able to kill the bridge troll is why we need the system as designed.
If they could have just killed that guy the problem would have resolved itself the first day.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
Comments
Here we go agaaaain.
At what point did I talk about unflagging during combat.
My points are corruption Bombing, and people giving away gear/mats to not lose it if they gain corrupting after killing people allowing alt or low level take it back to town.
Only ego here is yours as I was done with the point as I was given info on one of the major concerns i had, and you are cycling back to flagging and making no sense to me. It doesn't matter if you can't unflagged unless you go back to town.
Honestly don't say go check the wiki cause you don't know. If i have a problem explain it and use the wiki why that isn't a thing. If your method is telling everyone in a discussion to check every piece of information or don't talk about it, that sounds like ego to me.
That corruption number is a + though and a dangerous one.
By killing more people you gain more corruption.
Also, killing the mule is the same as killing a character, so you'll get double the corruption if you do that. Which will put you deeper into the hole.
...?
......?
I mean, he may have pointed out the obvious, but its true
Not a joke. There is not just one ultimate definition for PK. I have used to PK used whenever a player goes kill other players no matter what is the status of the target. I bet there is cultural differencies especially between different games. Anyhow, point was that because corruption system seams to be quite harsh imo (not saying for sure before testing though) it would need PKs to adapt to the situation if they want to maximise efficiency unless they are killing non-combatants just for fun.
Its a give take system too tho, as fighting back means you keep more of the loot you would otherwise lose while staying green.
You become corrupted only if you kill someone who doesn't fight back. That makes you a PlayerKiller. You don't become that in any other case, so they're all just PvPing.
That other game started out as a pure open world PvP game. It turned into a complete gankfest as you would expect with people sitting in spawn zones killing everything indiscriminately.
So, they tried to mitigate it a little as AoC will be attempting. That didn't work so they tried to mitigate it a lot and that didn't work either.
No one cared about the consequences because in a worst case scenario you can just use a different account.
Ashe's wont be attempting to limit the number of accounts people have so indeed people will absolutely be running multiple accounts to circumvent negative actions for indiscriminate PvP.
You can apply this to every aspect of the game where there are limits or restrictions meant to be placed on gameplay. The larger guilds are going to purchase many spare accounts to hand out to specific people.
If I remember correctly Ashe's will be monthly subscription only? This would make it even easier to do than some games because there is no upfront cost barrier to owning multiple accounts.
Account A gets hot from ganking. Register account B and gank until account A is clean. Need a little more time to cool off? Register account C. At this point I can't imagine needing any more accounts to circumvent any ingame limitations. This totals a maximum of $45/month. $45/month is historically a drop in the bucket for the average modern day MMORPG player, to the point of being meaningless.
Yeah I understand your point and I have saw people using words such PvPer, PK, Ganker, Griefer different ways and those can have different meaning to individual players. I guess it is vain to argue about the "right" definitions.
Anyway, from my experience flagged players are not necessarily fighting back if they are surprised or outnumbered or carrying something valueable. However, my owPvP experience comes mainly from Albion and somewhat from WoW and Runescape. Therefore, it might be that Lineage's definition about PK is closer to Ashes than Albion's for example if the rules are somewhat similar in L2 and AoC.
P.s. Some people are even talking about solo ganking even the original meaning refers to a group activity...
If you put that amount of time to get geared and lvled on multiple accounts that would be a lot of work. The more people you kill the more stats you lose do to being corrupted. They systems are well designed in preventing heavy gankers if you jut think about it. Red players are free pks, can drop gear, get lower stats, etc.
If its a guild dec you are out of luck and prob should head back to town.
Though at that point I got no fucking clue why wouldn't they just farm whatever they need through normal means, if they have groups of people that are so dedicated to the game.
Because the entire point is to hurt the casuals. That IS the gameplay.
Actually, I realized I gave too short an answer.
It's not just griefing.
If I kill you and take half your stuff, I am twice as far ahead of you as I would be if we both gathered our own stuff separately.
Other ways this works well, especially against newbies who don't have guilds yet:
Extortion.
Protection Rackets (related to the above but different).
Gaslighting (this one is complicated to do before you have power on the server but VERY easy once you have it, especially in a game with anonymous alts)
Creating double agents and spies through the above.
Good cop/bad cop emotional manipulation.
Economic blockades and shutdowns explicitly targeting the weaker players.
Piracy against players with large investments that were used to their area being safe.
These are just the ones off the top of my head.
I believe all of these are intended design, and it would be incredibly beneficial (in some cases required) to have a geared alt for these purposes.
Corruption won't wear off over time. Only through XP gain and death. Going full corrupted and logging off for a month you would come back to the same level of corruption.
Leveling is expected to take a fair amount of time. So leveling several characters is doable but time heavy.
Yeah I agree. However, you can also as a PK wish that greens will fight back. Okay you get half as much loot but you do not get corruption and you can continue killing more people without penalties.
Now it is.
In Archeage, people used to spend literal hours (as in, 12 or more per day) just sitting in their wagon on a bridge. This would block the bridge for all others, essentially cutting off trade. These people weren't doing anything, but were present the entire time (Trion could despawn them if they weren't present). Their idea of fun - for half the day or more, 7 days a week, for literal months - was to just ruin other peoples enjoyment.
Trion bought the issue to XL for them to do something about, but XL refused to believe people would be that ridiculous, and said Trion must be exaggerating. I was asked by some people I knew from Trion to make as big a fuss about it on the forums as I could - and was told that the thread I do it in basically wouldn't be closed (barring real life threats).
Not surprisingly, I had fun with that.
XL saw the thread, and made changes to the game to prevent it happening.
Point is, people absolutely will play a game with the sole intent of handing out a bad time to others. Self progression isn't really a concern (past what progression needs to be made to achieve the objective), and time isn't really a concern either.
These people get the same kick from someone saying "fuck you", or "you're such a dick" as someone like me gets from killing an encounter that has stumped my guild for a month, or like someone such as yourself would get from winning a siege.
This type of gameplay is as foreign to me as it is to you. I've seen it from the outside, but I don't understand what kind of person this is - only that they exist.
Ashes absolutely will attract these people for the first 6 months of the games life, and Intrepid need to design the game around the notion that if people can do things like this, they will.
People 100% will that is why I try to raise red flags about it if there is any way systems can be exploited.
Being able to kill the bridge troll is why we need the system as designed.
If they could have just killed that guy the problem would have resolved itself the first day.