Which can certainly still be put inside the safe freehold to craft their stuff without risk, but atleast they had the risk of the journey to reach max character level.
So, what you are actually saying is that you don't care if people can sit in their freehold and craft all day (because you now realize that your suggestion simply can't prevent that), you now just want there to be more work involved in getting there.
I don't see anything wrong with alts for craft, just need to make it equal work to get up there and make the good items. Create reasons why its better to interact with others over trying to do every crafting skill set yourself on alts.
Indeed.
Crafting alts are good - up to a point (which is limited by character slots and the time it takes to master professions).
However, for crafting alts to exist, they need to maintain the acquiring of corruption to be based on combat level only.
That is fine, you just put level requirements on being able to collect / hold higher level items so people aren't bringing dummy bag holding alts.
That's a pretty good idea, i suggested something similar back in page 9
I don't see anything wrong with alts for craft, just need to make it equal work to get up there and make the good items. Create reasons why its better to interact with others over trying to do every crafting skill set yourself on alts.
Indeed.
Crafting alts are good - up to a point (which is limited by character slots and the time it takes to master professions).
However, for crafting alts to exist, they need to maintain the acquiring of corruption to be based on combat level only.
That is fine, you just put level requirements on being able to collect / hold higher level items so people aren't bringing dummy bag holding alts.
I'm not a fan of this.
If you level up a profession, and you gather the materials, you should be able to make the item.
Artificial limits like this are just an unnecessary hindrance.
Which can certainly still be put inside the safe freehold to craft their stuff without risk, but atleast they had the risk of the journey to reach max character level.
So, what you are actually saying is that you don't care if people can sit in their freehold and craft all day (because you now realize that your suggestion simply can't prevent that), you now just want there to be more work involved in getting there.
Nope, its just that the first suggestion(when talking with Dolyem about low level gathering bots/alts) doesn't deal with this very specific situation of a lv 1 crafter alt crafting inside your main freehold without a single risk from its very creation have all the advantage a maximum level crafter can provide.
There simple shoudn't be things like all advantage no risk in a game that has as one of its core designs, Risk vs Reward.
Nope, its just that the first suggestion(when talking with Dolyem about low level gathering bots/alts) doesn't deal with this very specific situation of a lv 1 crafter alt crafting inside your main freehold without a single risk from its very creation have all the advantage a maximum level crafter can provide.
Leveling up a combat class gives you all the benefits of having a leveled up combat class.
Leveling up a crafting class gives you all the benefits of having leveled up a crafting class.
A player can use the characters on their account to mix and match as they see fit.
If they level up a crafting class without combat on that character, they are still at risk of being killed in combat by another character that is the same combat level as them.
That is an appropriate risk. Putting a level 1 character at risk of PvP vs a level 50 character is not an appropriate risk vs reward situation.
The notion of sitting in a freehold is a non-factor in this discussion, as it applies to all characters.
I don't see anything wrong with alts for craft, just need to make it equal work to get up there and make the good items. Create reasons why its better to interact with others over trying to do every crafting skill set yourself on alts.
Indeed.
Crafting alts are good - up to a point (which is limited by character slots and the time it takes to master professions).
However, for crafting alts to exist, they need to maintain the acquiring of corruption to be based on combat level only.
That is fine, you just put level requirements on being able to collect / hold higher level items so people aren't bringing dummy bag holding alts.
I'm not a fan of this.
If you level up a profession, and you gather the materials, you should be able to make the item.
Artificial limits like this are just an unnecessary hindrance.
If the material you are trying to gather is in a high level area, its highly unlikely you would be able to gather it without dying. There for you loot would also be dropping on death and not normal to get it in the first place. So having levels being tied to it seems fine to me. This way it also pushes people to rely on other players over trying to do everything themselves even more so.
Leveling up a combat class gives you all the benefits of having a leveled up combat class.
This one requires going out there in the world and facing the risks of the owPvP.
Leveling up a crafting class gives you all the benefits of having leveled up a crafting class.
This one doesn't.
If they level up a crafting class without combat on that character, they are still at risk of being killed in combat by another character that is the same combat level as them.
That is an appropriate risk. Putting a level 1 character at risk of PvP vs a level 50 character is not an appropriate risk vs reward situation.
The notion of sitting in a freehold is a non-factor in this discussion, as it applies to all characters.
The freehold Crafter interaction simple breaks the risk vs reward of the crafter artisan mastery.
It's literally the most important factor of this conversation.
The only difference between L2's karma system and AoC's corruption system is the resources that drop on death. Yes, there's also the stat dampening for Red players, but that's a change for such extreme cases that we can disregard that for now.
Well that’s conjecture. So ok.
We've yet to see exactly how much stuff we drop on death, so it's difficult to say how much desire there'll be in people to kill another player for their resources (and that's even considering that you'd know which resources that target even has).
Yep, agreed we still need to see this.
From what I've seen from pvp-dislikers and alleged casuals, their main problem is that they'll get attacked out of nowhere for no apparent reason while they're just chilling and doing their thing. From all my experience in L2, that would happen maaaaybe once a week and that's only if you came across some PK-lover who's just going around harassing people (any pvpers hate them too and love to hunt them asap).
Ok… more L2 stuff. 😉
Now what should be added to that experience is that L2 had several "people funnels" that always pushed players of a similar lvl together to create that good ol' soft friction that Steven likes to mention. And the higher your lvl was, the fewer funnels there'd be (but they'd be all-encompassing), so at top lvls your usual day in L2 would be spent in maybe 2-3 locations and that IF you wanted to farm different things that day. Within that funnel you'd have even more "sub-funnels" based on the lvl of mobs and their drops. So within those limited high lvl locations you'd have a limited amount of rooms to farm.
Ok. Idea on enhancement.
And in the context of all of that, most (if not all) people completely understood the concept of "I gotta fight for my right to party farm". If someone attacked you while you were farming those rooms - that wasn't "out of nowhere" and it wasn't "for no reason". You knew exactly why they did so and you usually were prepared for it (held the camera pointed at the entrance to your dungeon room). And you'd usually do the same to the person who was farming that room before you.
Ok, more observations from other games. It’s possible this correlates to Ashes, but 🤷♂️
This was the social contract of the game and the flagging system supported it. While you were farming, you'd see a dude stand at the entrance to your room (if camera angles allowed, he'd probably be standing just outside around the corner looking in). He'd watch you farm the mobs to see how strong you are. If you were strong, there'd be a chance he'll just move along to check out other room. If you were slow and weak, he might just start pulling mobs himself and start killing them way faster than you, non-verbally telling you "this is my room now because I can farm it better". In the case of the latter, you might try attacking him to show him that your pvp is stronger than your pve (I've seen such cases before). If you do in fact win in pvp, there's a chance that he comes back to fight you again, if the fight was really tight and equal (especially if you attacked him while he was fighting mobs). Run-back time could range from just seconds to a minute or two, depending on how deep you were in the dungeon (L2 had a TP system), which allowed you to prepare for his return and maybe have a better rotation for the fight (he would have it too). If you won again, quite a lot of people would just change rooms at this point because in their eyes you earned your farm of that room.
And due to how dungeons were designed, the run-back (or just getting deeper into the dungeon) would have you pass other lower lvled rooms with people farming them, which usually would dissuade people from PKing, because they knew that there were people (even if they were low lvl) who'd immediately run to kill you for some potential juicy lot. That was the case because a shout in chat would usually cover the whole dungeon's area (sometimes even more), so just yellng "hey peeps, there's a PK in such and such room - go kill 'em, they're low on hp" would usually not only provide a swift revenge, but would even have a chance of someone resurrecting you after they've dealt with the PKer (done so myself a ton of times).
More observations from other games.
Now all of that is just an example of how the social side of the flagging system worked. Unless we literally drop 50% of our resources on death in Ashes, I highly doubt the contract would be too different from the one in L2, so I truly believe that people are way too scared of the system that they've never experienced before.
What’s been said is just what’s in the wiki (and various interviews + content creators). On death players will drop a % of gathered certificates. Upon being killed a green will drop 100% more than a purple. Corrupt players may drop gear + certs.
But again, that’s been said for years. We don’t know what that’s going to actually look or feel like. Or how those %s will be adjusted after extensive testing. So, we know very little there.
Now the main exception to this line of thinking is L2's guild wars and what I believe AoC's equivalent of them to be - node wars. My example from L2 mainly worked for party gameplay, because most dungeons in L2 required you to be in a party (or at least with a full stack of support chars). Anything soloable was the land of the casuals that rarely had pvp, outside of low lvl guild war squabbles. And those squabbles were the main hardcore part of the whole pvp system.
Being in a guild that was at war could be very taxing and difficult for the unprepared. Most locations would have at least a few players from the warring guild (especially if you were at war with a big guild or against several guilds), who'd have complete ffa PKing rights against you. You afked for one minute to get some tea? You might come back to a dead character with the chat log reading "so and so dealt 10 hits of this much damage to you"(with that player being from a warring guild). You were peacefully farming a lower lvled room in some dungeon? The high lvl warring dudes would kill you on their way deeper into the dungeon just cause you were at war with them.
I'm assuming this is the experience of most WoW players or really any other faction-based mmo players, because that's usually the case in faction-based mmos, where people have full PKing rights for their enemies. Now what made L2 better than all those faction-based shitholes is that you could leave your guild at any time. Most reasonable GLs would be fine with you leaving for a while to get stronger, and quite a lot of them would just have a second guild for all the players who wanted to still stay in touch, but didn't want to suffer the war difficulties.
Cool. But again all anecdotal.
Now, AoC's guild wars will be way more goal-based in the design, as opposed to a just "we're at war until someone exits it like a pussy or until we have a bigger enemy to kill together"-type of deal from L2. And iirc Ashes guild wars will be more of an evening event than endless slaughter of your enemies. But Node Wars, from what I've read, seem like the exact copy of L2's guild wars. The mayor declares war on another node and both sides' citizens have a ffa fight through the duration of the war.
It will be? It might ‘seem like’ L2 in your opinion, but again we don’t know this - it’s just a guess. We have what’s been said.
The main problem I see with that system is that changing a Node is not as easy as changing a guild in L2 was, so most casuals who live in a Node at war would probably have a bad time. And I think that this feature will have to be tested even more than the Corruption system to truly know what a casual's day in the game would look like and how scary would any prospect of pvp be for them.
TL;DR we've seen this flagging system function just fine before, so I really don't think it's as spooky as some people make it out to be.
Totally agree with your opinion on the ‘spooky’ part. I want to point out that the lion’s share of the knowledge you’re rebutting my point about not really knowing what the corruption / combat systems are in Ashes, are just your own experiences and observations from L2 with a BIG assumption that L2 and Ashes are basically the same.
I still don’t think we know much, and won’t until we either see it demoed or test it. I tend to agree with many of your opinions, and you pack a solid amount of detail / good thinking behind them.
Leveling up a combat class gives you all the benefits of having a leveled up combat class.
This one requires going out there in the world and facing the risks of the owPvP.
Leveling up a crafting class gives you all the benefits of having leveled up a crafting class.
This one doesn't.
You have to do some serious mental gymnastics to arrive at this perspective.
So, that level 1 character that doesn't need to go out in the world has no risk of PvP. Cool. If we are looking at things from just the perspective of that character, that is true. You know what else that character can't do? Level up their profession, or craft literally any item.
In order to be able to do that, they need materials.
This means we now need to look at things from the perspective of the account (or player) rather than the character.
In order to get materials to that crafting alt, the player needs to level up their combat class, and as such are subject to PvP and all.
So, the player needs to be subject to PvP in order to feed the crafting alt, and the crafting alt is literally useless without the materials.
So, the PLAYER has just as much risk leveling up that alt characters crafting as they did leveling up their own, and it is only the PLAYER that gets the rewards from that leveled up crafting alt.
While it may be true that the crafting CHARACTER is not at risk, it is equally true that the crafting CHARACTER is not getting any real reward.
Literally the only way you could hold your view is if you think the CHARACTER is where the risk should be, and yet agree that the PLAYER is where the reward is at.
Some real mental gymnastics there, it simply doesn't follow.
True, and I did go quite a bit into the woods with that comment, but it's mainly because I usually see that phrase from the people that haven't even heard of L2 (outside of maybe Steven mentioning it), so they have 0 concept of how this kind of flagging system can even operate. And the only thing they see is "omg I can be killed in the open world! That sounds like that one time when a horde char killed me while I was picking flowers and it made me quit WoW! If Ashes keeps this system - IT'S GONNA FUCKING DIE!!!"
And that gets annoying when I know for sure that a veeery similar system works great and PKing doesn't happen all that often. And Steven has already made changes that will decrease the number of PKs even more. So my only logical conclusion from this experience and observation of said changes is that AoC's system will be even more casual friendly than L2's already were.
Now I'm not saying that you're one of the people who says that kind of shit, but it's been a long day/week/4 months for me, so that was just a bit of unneeded venting triggered by an annoying phrase
You have to do some serious mental gymnastics to arrive at this perspective.
Some real mental gymnastics there, it simply doesn't follow.
Don't get it twisted Noaani, the only mental gymnastics here are the ones you are trying to use to disconnect the characters from the player as a whole!
The Player's main character that levels up and goes out there in the world to get the resources needed faces the Risk vs Reward of the owPvP, but the lv 1 crafter on the freehold being fed only has PURE ADVANTAGES and NO DRAWBACKS, the player is simple without risks MULTIPLYING the value of the rewards acquired by the main character breaking the risk vs reward balance.
The Player's main character that levels up and goes out there in the world to get the resources needed faces the Risk vs Reward of the owPvP, but the lv 1 crafter on the freehold being fed only has PURE ADVANTAGES and NO DRAWBACKS, the player is simple without risks MULTIPLYING the value of the rewards acquired by the main character breaking the risk vs reward balance.
There are indeed drawbacks.
There is the time it took to level up the alts profession.
That multiplying of the value of rewards acquired by the main is the result of that time investment.
All you are arguing for is for an increase in that time. You are not adding any actual risk at all to this situation.
The Player's main character that levels up and goes out there in the world to get the resources needed faces the Risk vs Reward of the owPvP, but the lv 1 crafter on the freehold being fed only has PURE ADVANTAGES and NO DRAWBACKS, the player is simple without risks MULTIPLYING the value of the rewards acquired by the main character breaking the risk vs reward balance.
There are indeed drawbacks.
There is the time it took to level up the alts profession.
That multiplying of the value of rewards acquired by the main is the result of that time investment.
All you are arguing for is for an increase in that time. You are not adding any actual risk at all to this situation.
Once again getting it twisted eh? Time ≠ Risk
The processes of leveling the crafting profession multiplies the rewards along the way without risks, you will progress and profit no matter what.
I have no idea how you are still arguing that there is risk in such a balance-breaking situation such as a lvl 1 crafter alt in the freehold and not understanding the risks of the character level journey a crafter would need to get through to reach that reward.
True, and I did go quite a bit into the woods with that comment, but it's mainly because I usually see that phrase from the people that haven't even heard of L2 (outside of maybe Steven mentioning it), so they have 0 concept of how this kind of flagging system can even operate. And the only thing they see is "omg I can be killed in the open world! That sounds like that one time when a horde char killed me while I was picking flowers and it made me quit WoW! If Ashes keeps this system - IT'S GONNA FUCKING DIE!!!"
And that gets annoying when I know for sure that a veeery similar system works great and PKing doesn't happen all that often. And Steven has already made changes that will decrease the number of PKs even more. So my only logical conclusion from this experience and observation of said changes is that AoC's system will be even more casual friendly than L2's already were.
Now I'm not saying that you're one of the people who says that kind of shit, but it's been a long day/week/4 months for me, so that was just a bit of unneeded venting triggered by an annoying phrase
All good, man. I hear you on the year that has been a decade; sounds like it's been hard for you too. Based on what I read, I didn't take your response as venting, just trying to provide insight from your observations. I just think it's important for folks not to form their camps on Ashes PvX prematurely, based on a scant amount of actual knowledge.
Personally, I think that Intrepid is going to err on the side of corruption being on the harsher rather than forgiving side of the fence. Meaning that the overall life of greens will be more peaceful than folks are concerned about. That's pure conjecture based on what I've heard over the last few years from Steven.
But we'll see. We'll just need to test the hell out of the system.
If the material you are trying to gather is in a high level area, its highly unlikely you would be able to gather it without dying.
Perhaps, but perhaps not.
If I am able to get it, more power to me, right?
This kind of thing doesn't influence the normal player for the most part (it would stop you from making 5 alts and trying to master every craft on all them without further putting effort into each character.).
This is more a counter to guilds and super guilds that go to extreme try hard methods and bring alts to hold gear (this includes trying to find pvp exploits to bypass corruption drops), prevent pvp drop loss etc. Trust me this is something you want, its mainly try hard that will try to abuse such things so they can find ways around and pvp harder. Also something you won't see till much later on in the game life when people get more towards end game.
Sure it does. Name one other thing a game can take from us.
If we get corruption, it just takes time to get rid of it. If we lose materials, it takes time to replace them. If we get experience debt, it takes time to get rid of it.
Literally anything we risk in an MMORPG can be reduced down to the time it takes to replace it.
I have no idea how you are still arguing that there is risk in such a balance-breaking situation such as a lvl 1 crafter alt in the freehold and not understanding the risks of the character level journey a crafter would need to get through to reach that reward.
Leveling a character isn't a risk, it is a time commitment.
There is literally no situation in which it is reasonable to assume that a player can start to level a character, and not actually achieve hitting the level cap if they put enough time in to it.
Thus, this is not a risk, it is simply time.
There literally is no risk in an MMO outside of time. This is a game design fundamental.
Sure it does. Name one other thing a game can take from us.
If we get corruption, it just takes time to get rid of it. If we lose materials, it takes time to replace them. If we get experience debt, it takes time to get rid of it.
Literally anything we risk in an MMORPG can be reduced down to the time it takes to replace it.
A game isn't some sentient being that can "TAKE" something away like time from you by force Noaani...
Yes all those things takes time, but they also take other things that aren't time, like risks, action, knowledge, desire and etc.
Leveling a character isn't a risk, it is a time commitment.
There is literally no situation in which it is reasonable to assume that a player can start to level a character, and not actually achieve hitting the level cap if they put enough time in to it.
Thus, this is not a risk, it is simply time.
There literally is no risk in an MMO outside of time. This is a game design fundamental.
Once again Noaani, not only time...
Can the player start to level a character without action?
Without desiring to start to level a character?
There are risks in games Noaani, they are artificial and arbitrary, but they are still risks.
Yes all those things takes time, but they also take other things that aren't time, like risks, action, knowledge, desire and etc.
Take any action in which you are said to be at risk. The only things you stand to lose are things that you can gain back by putting in some time.
If I defeat you in PvP, you don't lose some of your knowledge on the game. Everything that you lose you can regain by simply spending time.
Once again Noaani, not only time...
Can the player start to level a character without action?
Without desirering to start to level a character without action?
What the fuck are you even talking about here?
What is action other than time?
There is nothing at risk in an MMORPG other than time.
Take any action in which you are said to be at risk. The only things you stand to lose are things that you can gain back by putting in some time.
If i risk overenchanting a weapon, the risk is to break it, can i put time in to recover it, yes, was the risk time?
Only indirectly and only if i want to recover it, the risk was breaking the weapon, the loss was the weapon, aren't you able to understand something as simple as that?
What is action other than time?
Actions require time, time itself doesn't requires actions Noaani, Think Noaani, Think!
There is no need to play around with semantics Noaani!
There is nothing at risk in an MMORPG other than time.
What the hell is this even supposed to mean? You dont RISK time playing a MMORPG you USE your time playing an MMORPG, aren't you able to understand the simple Risk vs Reward core design from ashes?
We are getting so far from the original point i can barely see it anymore.
If i risk overenchanting a weapon, the risk is to break it, can i put time in to recover it, yes, was the risk time?
Only indirectly and only if i want to recover it, the risk was breaking the weapon, the loss was the weapon, aren't you able to understand something as simple as that?
The loss was the weapon, and replacing the weapon requires time.
As I said, everything can be reduced down to time.
The rest of your post here was obviously you not being even remotely serious, and so I feel no need to reply to it at all.
The rest of your post here was obviously you not being even remotely serious, and so I feel no need to reply to it at all.
I will take it as advice, i feel it's illogical to keep replying to your posts about this subject after this point.
Was cool while it still made sense tho, i was able to get an interesting question for this Livestream Q&A thread.
Aren't we all sinners?
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If we forget this hypothetical PvE-server thing. Ashes will have non-consensual PvP regardless players like it or not. Only time will tell which direction the corruption rules will be adjusted but it is hard to say anything for that before proper testing. Yeah I agree that it will not necessarily be that bad but at the end it depends what level is acceptable from developers mind. I am personally easy to please here because I am okay with everything.
Yeah, I mean...
We're going to have a few people at the extremes:
Some people who believe Corruption is too harsh on PvPers.
Some people who believe Ashes should have a "PvE server."
I think most of this discussion is more about explaining what the concept of a "PvE server" even means for Ashes - because PvPers tend to think that means no PvP at all, when what advocates mostly want is to have the non-consensual PvP disabled while keeping the Battlegrounds PvP enabled.
The vast majority of us commenting in this topic know that the devs should not be wasting their time creating and managing a "PvE server" at this point in development (3 years behind the original release date).
We're content to test Alpha 2 before making a judgment call.
The rest of your post here was obviously you not being even remotely serious, and so I feel no need to reply to it at all.
I will take it as advice, i feel it's illogical to keep replying to your posts about this subject after this point.
Was cool while it still made sense tho, i was able to get an interesting question for this Livestream Q&A thread.
You still didn't come up with anything players are risking that isn't able to reduce down to time.
Nor did you give any reason as to why you want profession and combat levels tied other than as a means to increase the time it takes to level up a profession on an alt.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
This thread... though I do like brownies (with or without nuts). I'll take three, @NiKr
Two 'brass tacks' thoughts:
1. I think a pve version of Ashes is simply a non-starter (hence the HEAVY sarcasm of the OP) for obvious reasons
2. Given a PvX ow, the core governing mechanism is corruption. We know next to nothing about that system. We've never tested it and never seen it demoed. We also have no understanding of what the combat system is going to be. So while the conversations about the right blend of PvP are interesting justifications for more popcorn, we're ALL operating from a place of near-complete ignorance
Just keep that in mind before some of you tear each others virtual heads off.
I keep saying this but no one cares lmao
I think you just have to spend more time assessing where people agree with you in addition to where they don't.
I've been saying the same thing CROW3 wrote this entire time.
So...again...seems like we agree... although you reply to me as if we don't.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Like even if you pk someone and get their loot and 20 other people see you, they are going to flag up. And if you kill them your corruption only gets worse. If im a casual or pver I'm glad the system on a design stand point feels as powerful as possible to making it hell for a pvper.
From what I've heard the issue is not the absence of punishment for the criminal, but the loss of resources/time itself on the side of the casual getting killed. They don't care that they might not get kileld by the same person later on because they already got killed by them just now.
Mmmmn. I mean...
What's important is that Corruption is enough of a deterrent that killing a non-combatant is comfortably rare.
The revenge is mostly irrelevant. And the loss of resources/materials is probably irrelevant, too, since it's just the loot that you lose for being killed by a mob.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Just out of curiosity... is it said that a lvl 1 character can become some sort of a master crafter?
Anyhow, I do not personally want any restrictions for the alts and I think that players should have a possibility to create freely different kind of characters (considering professions and classes) they want to. That is kind of the idea of alts.
I think someone already mentioned that profession level could be bound with character lvl, if needed.
Comments
That's a pretty good idea, i suggested something similar back in page 9
Aren't we all sinners?
I'm not a fan of this.
If you level up a profession, and you gather the materials, you should be able to make the item.
Artificial limits like this are just an unnecessary hindrance.
Nope, its just that the first suggestion(when talking with Dolyem about low level gathering bots/alts) doesn't deal with this very specific situation of a lv 1 crafter alt crafting inside your main freehold without a single risk from its very creation have all the advantage a maximum level crafter can provide.
There simple shoudn't be things like all advantage no risk in a game that has as one of its core designs, Risk vs Reward.
Aren't we all sinners?
Leveling up a crafting class gives you all the benefits of having leveled up a crafting class.
A player can use the characters on their account to mix and match as they see fit.
If they level up a crafting class without combat on that character, they are still at risk of being killed in combat by another character that is the same combat level as them.
That is an appropriate risk. Putting a level 1 character at risk of PvP vs a level 50 character is not an appropriate risk vs reward situation.
The notion of sitting in a freehold is a non-factor in this discussion, as it applies to all characters.
If the material you are trying to gather is in a high level area, its highly unlikely you would be able to gather it without dying. There for you loot would also be dropping on death and not normal to get it in the first place. So having levels being tied to it seems fine to me. This way it also pushes people to rely on other players over trying to do everything themselves even more so.
If I am able to get it, more power to me, right?
The freehold Crafter interaction simple breaks the risk vs reward of the crafter artisan mastery.
It's literally the most important factor of this conversation.
Aren't we all sinners?
Well that’s conjecture. So ok.
Yep, agreed we still need to see this.
Ok… more L2 stuff. 😉
Ok. Idea on enhancement.
Ok, more observations from other games. It’s possible this correlates to Ashes, but 🤷♂️
More observations from other games.
What’s been said is just what’s in the wiki (and various interviews + content creators). On death players will drop a % of gathered certificates. Upon being killed a green will drop 100% more than a purple. Corrupt players may drop gear + certs.
But again, that’s been said for years. We don’t know what that’s going to actually look or feel like. Or how those %s will be adjusted after extensive testing. So, we know very little there.
Cool. But again all anecdotal.
It will be? It might ‘seem like’ L2 in your opinion, but again we don’t know this - it’s just a guess. We have what’s been said.
Totally agree with your opinion on the ‘spooky’ part. I want to point out that the lion’s share of the knowledge you’re rebutting my point about not really knowing what the corruption / combat systems are in Ashes, are just your own experiences and observations from L2 with a BIG assumption that L2 and Ashes are basically the same.
I still don’t think we know much, and won’t until we either see it demoed or test it. I tend to agree with many of your opinions, and you pack a solid amount of detail / good thinking behind them.
But they’re still opinions…. 🤗
So, that level 1 character that doesn't need to go out in the world has no risk of PvP. Cool. If we are looking at things from just the perspective of that character, that is true. You know what else that character can't do? Level up their profession, or craft literally any item.
In order to be able to do that, they need materials.
This means we now need to look at things from the perspective of the account (or player) rather than the character.
In order to get materials to that crafting alt, the player needs to level up their combat class, and as such are subject to PvP and all.
So, the player needs to be subject to PvP in order to feed the crafting alt, and the crafting alt is literally useless without the materials.
So, the PLAYER has just as much risk leveling up that alt characters crafting as they did leveling up their own, and it is only the PLAYER that gets the rewards from that leveled up crafting alt.
While it may be true that the crafting CHARACTER is not at risk, it is equally true that the crafting CHARACTER is not getting any real reward.
Literally the only way you could hold your view is if you think the CHARACTER is where the risk should be, and yet agree that the PLAYER is where the reward is at.
Some real mental gymnastics there, it simply doesn't follow.
And that gets annoying when I know for sure that a veeery similar system works great and PKing doesn't happen all that often. And Steven has already made changes that will decrease the number of PKs even more. So my only logical conclusion from this experience and observation of said changes is that AoC's system will be even more casual friendly than L2's already were.
Now I'm not saying that you're one of the people who says that kind of shit, but it's been a long day/week/4 months for me, so that was just a bit of unneeded venting triggered by an annoying phrase
Don't get it twisted Noaani, the only mental gymnastics here are the ones you are trying to use to disconnect the characters from the player as a whole!
The Player's main character that levels up and goes out there in the world to get the resources needed faces the Risk vs Reward of the owPvP, but the lv 1 crafter on the freehold being fed only has PURE ADVANTAGES and NO DRAWBACKS, the player is simple without risks MULTIPLYING the value of the rewards acquired by the main character breaking the risk vs reward balance.
Aren't we all sinners?
There is the time it took to level up the alts profession.
That multiplying of the value of rewards acquired by the main is the result of that time investment.
All you are arguing for is for an increase in that time. You are not adding any actual risk at all to this situation.
Once again getting it twisted eh? Time ≠ Risk
The processes of leveling the crafting profession multiplies the rewards along the way without risks, you will progress and profit no matter what.
I have no idea how you are still arguing that there is risk in such a balance-breaking situation such as a lvl 1 crafter alt in the freehold and not understanding the risks of the character level journey a crafter would need to get through to reach that reward.
Aren't we all sinners?
All good, man. I hear you on the year that has been a decade; sounds like it's been hard for you too. Based on what I read, I didn't take your response as venting, just trying to provide insight from your observations. I just think it's important for folks not to form their camps on Ashes PvX prematurely, based on a scant amount of actual knowledge.
Personally, I think that Intrepid is going to err on the side of corruption being on the harsher rather than forgiving side of the fence. Meaning that the overall life of greens will be more peaceful than folks are concerned about. That's pure conjecture based on what I've heard over the last few years from Steven.
But we'll see. We'll just need to test the hell out of the system.
This kind of thing doesn't influence the normal player for the most part (it would stop you from making 5 alts and trying to master every craft on all them without further putting effort into each character.).
This is more a counter to guilds and super guilds that go to extreme try hard methods and bring alts to hold gear (this includes trying to find pvp exploits to bypass corruption drops), prevent pvp drop loss etc. Trust me this is something you want, its mainly try hard that will try to abuse such things so they can find ways around and pvp harder. Also something you won't see till much later on in the game life when people get more towards end game.
If we get corruption, it just takes time to get rid of it. If we lose materials, it takes time to replace them. If we get experience debt, it takes time to get rid of it.
Literally anything we risk in an MMORPG can be reduced down to the time it takes to replace it. Leveling a character isn't a risk, it is a time commitment.
There is literally no situation in which it is reasonable to assume that a player can start to level a character, and not actually achieve hitting the level cap if they put enough time in to it.
Thus, this is not a risk, it is simply time.
There literally is no risk in an MMO outside of time. This is a game design fundamental.
A game isn't some sentient being that can "TAKE" something away like time from you by force Noaani...
Yes all those things takes time, but they also take other things that aren't time, like risks, action, knowledge, desire and etc.
Once again Noaani, not only time...
Can the player start to level a character without action?
Without desiring to start to level a character?
There are risks in games Noaani, they are artificial and arbitrary, but they are still risks.
Aren't we all sinners?
If I defeat you in PvP, you don't lose some of your knowledge on the game. Everything that you lose you can regain by simply spending time. What the fuck are you even talking about here?
What is action other than time?
There is nothing at risk in an MMORPG other than time.
If i risk overenchanting a weapon, the risk is to break it, can i put time in to recover it, yes, was the risk time?
Only indirectly and only if i want to recover it, the risk was breaking the weapon, the loss was the weapon, aren't you able to understand something as simple as that?
Actions require time, time itself doesn't requires actions Noaani, Think Noaani, Think!
There is no need to play around with semantics Noaani!
What the hell is this even supposed to mean? You dont RISK time playing a MMORPG you USE your time playing an MMORPG, aren't you able to understand the simple Risk vs Reward core design from ashes?
We are getting so far from the original point i can barely see it anymore.
Aren't we all sinners?
The loss was the weapon, and replacing the weapon requires time.
As I said, everything can be reduced down to time.
The rest of your post here was obviously you not being even remotely serious, and so I feel no need to reply to it at all.
I will take it as advice, i feel it's illogical to keep replying to your posts about this subject after this point.
Was cool while it still made sense tho, i was able to get an interesting question for this Livestream Q&A thread.
Aren't we all sinners?
Why are you writing an agreement as if you disagree with me??
We're going to have a few people at the extremes:
Some people who believe Corruption is too harsh on PvPers.
Some people who believe Ashes should have a "PvE server."
I think most of this discussion is more about explaining what the concept of a "PvE server" even means for Ashes - because PvPers tend to think that means no PvP at all, when what advocates mostly want is to have the non-consensual PvP disabled while keeping the Battlegrounds PvP enabled.
The vast majority of us commenting in this topic know that the devs should not be wasting their time creating and managing a "PvE server" at this point in development (3 years behind the original release date).
We're content to test Alpha 2 before making a judgment call.
You still didn't come up with anything players are risking that isn't able to reduce down to time.
Nor did you give any reason as to why you want profession and combat levels tied other than as a means to increase the time it takes to level up a profession on an alt.
I've been saying the same thing CROW3 wrote this entire time.
So...again...seems like we agree... although you reply to me as if we don't.
What's important is that Corruption is enough of a deterrent that killing a non-combatant is comfortably rare.
The revenge is mostly irrelevant. And the loss of resources/materials is probably irrelevant, too, since it's just the loot that you lose for being killed by a mob.
Yo Dygz, do you happen to have a wiki quote or a video time stamp related to this?
I Haven't found one yet.
Aren't we all sinners?
Progression within artisan classes does not relate to a player's progression in their adventuring class.[9]
In the wiki under artisan classes
Sounds like I can work and level skills in professions and never even leave my node, therefore never kill anything or level up my character.