Noaani
You haven't answered whether you'd play an MMO where Tracking is useless.
Yes I did. If you had been paying attention to the discussion (going back to your first few days here), you would have seen the answer.
I said I wouldn't play a game where players do not have access to objective data. Since the only way trackers could be useless is if they have no data, and since if players have data, trackers have data, saying I would not play a game if players have no data is the exact same thing as saying I would not play a game if trackers were useless.
It isnt my fault you cant think for yourself here.
I am not sure what objective data is as the alternative would be subjective data.
But if that is about accuracy, I want to add that Steven reduced the information available to enemies and still shows it to allies, because information is important
With regards to seeing another player's health: As you know their name plate will deteriorate or give you an indication of like hey they've taken damage they're significantly injured, but you're not going to get a percentage. You're not gonna get an exact bar value, unless you're in their party or in their raid.[4] – Steven Sharif
But health and damage are only the part of DPS meter, which is only a subset of combat trackers, as I understand it from this thread.
And having that information about what happened during a raid, at each moment and investigate it can be an interesting activity.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
Noaani
"The only way trackers could be useless is if they have no data"
Assume there is a way for trackers to be available and also useless.
Do you not play the game as a result.
I assume by trackers being available, you mean they have a feed of objective data. Since this is a fantasy that doesn't follow logic, I have no opinion on the matter.
Noaani
So you want those without trackers to be less competitively viable, or not? How much so "less competitive"?
Do you only play games where you can use a Tracker and get an advantage over those without one or not?
Do you want content to be static enough you can beat it with Trackers or not?
I only play MMO's if there is a tracker for me to use, and generally prefer it if one is available to all players that wish to use one.
If a tracker is available to all, and some opt to not use one, I am not concerned if that gives me an edge over them or not. They make the decision to not use it, which they are entitled to do, but all decisions have consequences.
Actively using a tracker is only really a direct advantage at the group or raid level. If you do not use a tracker, but still wish to be as objectively good at your class as you can be, you can achieve that via assistance from someone that uses a tracker, you do not need to use one yourself. From your perspective, this is not a whole lot different to getting assistance from someone that doesn't use a tracker - so is not something anyone should take issue with.
What if trackers were an in-game item that required players wear something to feed info to it? What if the tracker and info-generator used up space and resources that could go elsewhere? What if it was limited, such that certain effects do not show up on the tracker as part of the game's content and challenge?
On top of tracking not offering much of an advantage or no advantage, actually a DISADVANTAGE compared to those that can use something like 'Inspect', Communication, Intuition, Reason, et cetera and simply play the game engaged? Thus, they can use that "Equipment Slot", attention span, 'encumberance', on something more useful?
Would this be the deal breaker?
If all it takes to have access to a tracker is to equip an item, groups and raids will simply require players have and equip that item as a condition of entry. This removes player choice.
Having it limited, and indeed having it use up a resource, is in itself fine. In fact, that is the basis for my guild based tracker suggestion. It is limited to only those in your guild, and takes up a guild perk.
This is all done on the guild level rather than the player or character level, because a tracker is more of a benefit to the guild than the player, players tend to already join guilds with like minded players, and any attempt to put the ability to opt in or out of a tracker at the individual level will result in the above situation where it is required to be bought along on content.
Taking this out of the hands of the individual and placing it in the hands of the guild means no one can really require it, and even if they did, since the tracker only works with others within your guild, it would be pointless. Individual players still have the choice of using trackers or not, it is just a choice that is a factor of their choice of guild.
Noaani
"The only way trackers could be useless is if they have no data"
Assume there is a way for trackers to be available and also useless.
Do you not play the game as a result.
I assume by trackers being available, you mean they have a feed of objective data. Since this is a fantasy that doesn't follow logic, I have no opinion on the matter.
And since you don't have an opinion on games you don't play, you would not play that game.
If a tracker is available to all, and some opt to not use one, I am not concerned if that gives me an edge over them or not. They make the decision to not use it, which they are entitled to do, but all decisions have consequences.
Actively using a tracker is only really a direct advantage at the group or raid level. If you do not use a tracker, but still wish to be as objectively good at your class as you can be, you can achieve that via assistance from someone that uses a tracker, you do not need to use one yourself. From your perspective, this is not a whole lot different to getting assistance from someone that doesn't use a tracker - so is not something anyone should take issue with.
The issue I have is with how you want the game to be designed. The 'fantasy' where Trackers aren't really useful would stop you from playing because that is literally all you say you care about. . . and it would appeal to many many others. . .
Why do you even play MMOs? Shouldn't you be playing a sim?
What if trackers were an in-game item that required players wear something to feed info to it? What if the tracker and info-generator used up space and resources that could go elsewhere? What if it was limited, such that certain effects do not show up on the tracker as part of the game's content and challenge?
On top of tracking not offering much of an advantage or no advantage, actually a DISADVANTAGE compared to those that can use something like 'Inspect', Communication, Intuition, Reason, et cetera and simply play the game engaged? Thus, they can use that "Equipment Slot", attention span, 'encumberance', on something more useful?
Would this be the deal breaker?
If all it takes to have access to a tracker is to equip an item, groups and raids will simply require players have and equip that item as a condition of entry. This removes player choice.
Having it limited, and indeed having it use up a resource, is in itself fine. In fact, that is the basis for my guild based tracker suggestion. It is limited to only those in your guild, and takes up a guild perk.
This is all done on the guild level rather than the player or character level, because a tracker is more of a benefit to the guild than the player, players tend to already join guilds with like minded players, and any attempt to put the ability to opt in or out of a tracker at the individual level will result in the above situation where it is required to be bought along on content.
Taking this out of the hands of the individual and placing it in the hands of the guild means no one can really require it, and even if they did, since the tracker only works with others within your guild, it would be pointless. Individual players still have the choice of using trackers or not, it is just a choice that is a factor of their choice of guild.
Right. So if everyone has to wear a one-piece suit that takes up an under-armor layer and replaces another enchant option. . . and all the data goes to someone with a big data collection backpack. . . . that's fine with you? Even if the data feedback is not completely precise based on quality and durability of the one-piece? Top quality and full durability being 99.95% - 99.8% precise I guess.
With certain effects and mechanics not showing up due to that being part of that particular content's challenge? Or the person with the data collection backpack being targetted because they're some Dark Cleric and their Madness drives them to secrecy and silence? Always seeing the thread of information weave through things? So they focus fire the raid leader (you) and everyone wipes with your expensive data collection items destroyed?
You'd still play even if there are disruptive mechanics that disrupt these devices for half a second or more? 2 seconds? 3 seconds? 5 seconds? Maybe the precision drops to 1% then quickly reaches 90% in 1 second but takes 3 more seconds to reach 99.9% precise?
@Noaani
You have no reason to say shit like: "I'm not concerned if trackers give me an edge over others or not"
but . . .
"I only play MMOs with trackers that are really a distinct advantage at the group or raid level"
You will not play a game with trackers, that aren't a distinct advantage at the raid or group level.
You say bullshit screw tongue shit all the time. Only other screw tongues like talking to you. Do you eat ass lmao? I am beginning to understand better who I am talking to.
@Noaani
You have no reason to say shit like: "I'm not concerned if trackers give me an edge over others or not"
but . . .
"I only play MMOs with trackers that are really a distinct advantage at the group or raid level"
You will not play a game with trackers, that aren't a distinct advantage at the raid or group level.
You say bullshit screw tongue shit all the time. Only other screw tongues like talking to you. Do you eat ass lmao? I am beginning to understand better who I am talking to.
He has been caught in a lot of bs, that is what I've ben saying. He actually tried to lie about the content around trackers. The more he talks the more he trips up because he is not coming from a genuine position, and not caring what others what or the devs. Unless they are supporting what he wants.
NO ONE WANTS A GAME MADE AROUND TRACKERS
And whatever is done to make them as ineffective as possible so people think using a tracker is useless is good. Which means no trackers in game is a great first step.
@Noaani
You have no reason to say shit like: "I'm not concerned if trackers give me an edge over others or not"
but . . .
"I only play MMOs with trackers that are really a distinct advantage at the group or raid level"
You will not play a game with trackers, that aren't a distinct advantage at the raid or group level.
You say bullshit screw tongue shit all the time. Only other screw tongues like talking to you. Do you eat ass lmao? I am beginning to understand better who I am talking to.
I mean, he's explained in the past that the only way to make trackers not be an advantage at the raid or group level is to make the enemies too simplistic or easy for the data to be useful. Perhaps you missed that? I don't recall exactly when you joined the thread. It's not strange for a high-end PvE player to ignore games with simplistic combat.
Trackers are useful for all complex or tactically difficult games. He's not saying "Trackers are useless, so I won't play." He's saying "The only way trackers can be useless is as a RESULT of the game being shit, and I don't play shit games."
And yes, we know, you want him to believe that trackers can be useless without a game being simplistic, and don't understand why he believes that's impossible. But since you haven't convinced him, that wish hasn't changed what HE is saying, or the basis of his statements. So what HE means, is still the "only shit games don't benefit from trackers" (note the direction of causality there, it's not that not having a tracker is the thing makes a game shit, he's saying that the game being shit is the reason that it doesn't have a tracker).
Perhaps you could return to trying to develop a concrete (more "this exactly how such a game would work" than "please imagine if it were possible") example of why his carefully considered perspective is wrong?
If someone wants to play a certain kind of game that is fine.
But If trackers are in Ashes of Creation I'd like them to be similar to how I outlined them in my last post.
Perhaps you could let him answer my questions instead of asking me to change it?
Or are you going to claim those beliefs as your own so I can start interrogating them?
Just as I'm fine with Bard being in the game, but I don't want Bard to dominate the game. Hence some of my Bard suggestions that can be found elsewhere, for more out-of-combat/out-of-raid utility on Bard.
Just as I'm fine with Ranger being in the game, but I don't want Ranger to dominate the game. Hence some of my Ranger suggestions that can be found elsewhere, for more out-of-combat/out-of-raid utility on Ranger.
Just as I do not want classes to be entirely group or raid focused, I do not want Trackers to be entirely group or raid focused, and do not want them to dominate the meta for viability or be 'required'. In fact, I've thought of several ways the game could be better that is in direct conflict with the existence of trackers.
I've imagined several ways the game could be improved that also makes trackers less useful, and have imagined several ways limited information may be used as integral to gameplay. . . integral to power dynamics and to immersion. . . integral to class fantasy. . . integral to fun. . . expanding viable and sometimes necessary strategies and tactics . . . for a better game.
And I've talked about these things in this very thread already.
If none of that matters to you then you are selfish and greedy.
Limits to information and information acquisition is a rich source of gameplay mechanics that add to the depth and fun of the game.
The issue I have is with how you want the game to be designed. The 'fantasy' where Trackers aren't really useful would stop you from playing because that is literally all you say you care about. . . and it would appeal to many many others. . .
Why do you even play MMOs? Shouldn't you be playing a sim?
"I only play MMOs with trackers that are really a distinct advantage at the group or raid level"
I never said this.
Why are you having to lie in order to make an argument here?
You have taken two statements and conflated them.
I said I will only plan an MMO if it has a tracker. Fortunately, literally every MMO ever made has had a tracker for those that want to use one, so this has never been an issue.
I also said - s a different statement - that trackers are only really an advantage at the guild level. This is because at the individual level, a player doesnt need to use a tracker in order to get the benefit of using a tracker. What this statement means in practice is that if one person in a guild is using a tracker, the guild is using a tracker.
I also said I prefer games where trackers are easily available to anyone that wants to use one.
Now, if you are playing a game where trackers are freely available, and you have a guild of 50 players wanting to take on the same content I take on, someone in that guild will be running a tracker. It would be statistically improbable for that to not be the case, and indeed I have doubts you would be able to even create such a guild on purpose in most games.
So, if one person in every guild has a tracker, and if trackers are an advantage at the guild level more than the individual level, I dont have an advantage over anyone going after the same content as me and my guild.
I know that doesnt fit your narrative, but that is how it is.
The issue I have is with how you want the game to be designed. The 'fantasy' where Trackers aren't really useful would stop you from playing because that is literally all you say you care about. . . and it would appeal to many many others. . .
Why do you even play MMOs? Shouldn't you be playing a sim?
Why are you asking questions expecting (almost demanding) answers, when you are also refusing to answer others questions, and are also deliberately misquoting statements of people you are demanding answers from?
You are actually acting in nothing short of a disgusting manner in this thread, and if you think yourself a decent human, should be somewhat ashamed of yourself. And I mean that quite honestly.
DPS meters shouldn't exist as AoC seems like it'll harbor the ability for players to really personalize their build for their playstyle that they want, and with something like a DPS meter there would eventually be a meta and the toxicity would start flooding in. DPS meters always harbor toxicity.
DPS meters shouldn't exist as AoC seems like it'll harbor the ability for players to really personalize their build for their playstyle that they want, and with something like a DPS meter there would eventually be a meta and the toxicity would start flooding in. DPS meters always harbor toxicity.
This kind of behavior (a game having a class meta) will happen whether you have a combat tracker not.
Without a tracker, people will have a very small number of builds they are willing to accept from people they are not familiar with, but with a tracker they will be more willing to accept an off-build, and see how it performs.
One thing that I think would be a good touch would be a DPS meter you could opt into so it displays your personal stats to make sure you are doing your job properly. I personally love DPS meters because it helps me min-max the perfect build and is a quick way to find out what is truly helping in an actual fight. What does everyone else prefer?
I don't like it.
- It's not going to happen !
I recommend you to Go play new world or Wow.
Peace cannot be kept by force, it can only be achieved by understanding.
One thing that I think would be a good touch would be a DPS meter you could opt into so it displays your personal stats to make sure you are doing your job properly. I personally love DPS meters because it helps me min-max the perfect build and is a quick way to find out what is truly helping in an actual fight. What does everyone else prefer?
I don't like it.
- It's not going to happen !
I recommend you to Go play new world or Wow.
Actually true because meters already happened and they exist rn
DPS meters shouldn't exist as AoC seems like it'll harbor the ability for players to really personalize their build for their playstyle that they want, and with something like a DPS meter there would eventually be a meta and the toxicity would start flooding in. DPS meters always harbor toxicity.
With time, fast enough there will be reknown build for their efficiency. and also others for their inefficiency. no need a tracker for this... Even if sometime , those reknown are false...
You find a new build, or changed slightly a non efficient one, and you are sure you do more damages than most people with the reknown efficient build
The party leader have to chose between you and another one with the "efficient build" . . . You have no way to prove to be more efficient, aside your words. Do you really think party leader won't do the safe choice and don't blindly follow what everyone says and what all guide are saying ?
I hate meta, really... i often play out of meta, but for this, i need way to prove myself. How to prove myself if i have no value for it?
meta always existed in every game, and will always exist, the problem is simply : how to fight it. I think the best way is to give people accurate tools to prove themselves,
No proof, no trust, this is a thing i had to fast learn in online gaming... Not only on MMORPG,
But it is nothing more than a human reaction.
Hope the game UI will be have DPS\HPS meters, bc its need for hight level player to make their builds progression effective, and make analyse of last combats for upgrade yourselfs.
And if some ine dont need it just dont use it, and dont wright hear that GAME dont need it, bc like i say upper this functional MUSTHAVE for make yourself better
As long as nobody other than myself can see my damage / healing done; and Intrepid lets me report those that find a way to do it, so they get banned. The same way FF14 does it, i'd be OK with it.
i not understend what is the problem of situation when team wanna see how much theyr player perform on boss fight? bc i dont wanna waste my time if some one in party just always afk, and we cant make progress bc of them?
I hope the developers will take as an example the functionality of addons WoW, and even better make something of their own and better.
p.s. I hope the developers will take more into account the opinion of people who want to develop and progress, and less on people who are constantly whining "why I got kicked out of the party? I just did nothing for the group in the dungeon, and they kicked me so they are bad ..."
I don't understand some of the terms people are using, when they say trackers are they talking about logs?
A combat log us generally just a file that contains raw information.
A combat tracker parses that raw data, and presents it in an easier/faster to understand manner.
A DPS meter is a colloquial (and technically incorrect) term for a combat tracker. It is used mostly by people that dont really understand what a combat tracker actually does, and assumes it is just for DPS. In reality, a combat tracker can be used to track DPS, HPS, blocking, dodging, avoiding, hit rate, crit rate, curing/cleansing, buffing, debugging, CC, experience gain, coin gain, travel distance, gathering yields, crafting results, basically anything that can be associated with numbers.
I don't understand some of the terms people are using, when they say trackers are they talking about logs?
A combat log us generally just a file that contains raw information.
A combat tracker parses that raw data, and presents it in an easier/faster to understand manner.
A DPS meter is a colloquial (and technically incorrect) term for a combat tracker. It is used mostly by people that dont really understand what a combat tracker actually does, and assumes it is just for DPS. In reality, a combat tracker can be used to track DPS, HPS, blocking, dodging, avoiding, hit rate, crit rate, curing/cleansing, buffing, debugging, CC, experience gain, coin gain, travel distance, gathering yields, crafting results, basically anything that can be associated with numbers.
Hope that helps.
Yup, makes sense, I've just never heard the term tracker before, I guess it makes sense because of ACT.
I find it odd that many people argue that DPS should only be seen by the individual and the group leader. Who do you think will be kicking people from groups, rightly or wrongly, based on the meters? Yes, the group leader. It is simply naive to think that people will not be seeing each others DPS in one way or another, so just person up and deal with it. You can chose to associate with elitists who will navel gaze and ponder the detail of the DPS stats, or hang with more free-wheeling types. No one is forcing anyone.
To think that third party DPS neters won't exist is wishful thinking at best.
Also, I want to see other people's DPS, so that if I am under-performing in some aspect (all mitigating circumstances notwithstanding) compared to another person playing the same class mix, then I can find ways to lift my game. I enjoy pushing myself to some extent, but I am far from an elitist. Who knows, I may even end up being primarily a crafter, assuming the game lives up in that respect.
There must have been some bad experiences in other games (WoW?) for people to be so upset about such a useful tool, when used properly. That fault lies in the community, not the tool.
ACT can be very usefull if they are used with the right approach but they can be used also in a very toxic way and same as OWPvP if toxicity is not addressed it will eventually outweigh the good things about the system/tools. So either we have to find a way to restrict toxic usage of such tools or if we cannot find a good way to do that better to just not have them in my opinion. For me personally WoW Mythic+ and Raiding was the most toxic experience i ever had in any mmorpg , because of people which dont use ACT correctly and use it just as excuse. In an environment where everybody are friends and just are looking to improve together and overcome challenges together ACT is very very useful there is no doubt about that, but the problem is the other side which unfortunately turns to be bigger.
DPS meters shouldn't exist as AoC seems like it'll harbor the ability for players to really personalize their build for their playstyle that they want, and with something like a DPS meter there would eventually be a meta and the toxicity would start flooding in. DPS meters always harbor toxicity.
omg, one more guy ho cry that "DPS meters bring toxic in game"....
Dps\Hps meters give you much more power to scale your build so its MUST be 1000000% in mmo.
Another question is whether the information from these meters would be public or not. In terms of the head of Intrepid Studios being a fan of Lineage2 (there is no game more toxic than Lineage. And let's close the subject of toxicity I beg you, in mmo should not play people who can be offended if they are told that they are trash.) i'm sure that most things in the game associated with the character will be conditionally non-public as well as in Lineage, so the report / statistic of the battle will probably not be public.
For me personally, as I have written many times in this thread. Battle report tools must be in mmo game, without them the life of a leader of the group/clan/raid becomes hell, as it is very difficult to understand in more detail where and who makes mistakes, or does not perform their task at all, the most basic tool dps / hps meter can help improve the build, and in case someone in the group clearly become ballast, help him sort out this problem
DPS meters shouldn't exist as AoC seems like it'll harbor the ability for players to really personalize their build for their playstyle that they want, and with something like a DPS meter there would eventually be a meta and the toxicity would start flooding in. DPS meters always harbor toxicity.
omg, one more guy ho cry that "DPS meters bring toxic in game"....
Dps\Hps meters give you much more power to scale your build so its MUST be 1000000% in mmo.
Another question is whether the information from these meters would be public or not. In terms of the head of Intrepid Studios being a fan of Lineage2 (there is no game more toxic than Lineage. And let's close the subject of toxicity I beg you, in mmo should not play people who can be offended if they are told that they are trash.) i'm sure that most things in the game associated with the character will be conditionally non-public as well as in Lineage, so the report / statistic of the battle will probably not be public.
For me personally, as I have written many times in this thread. Battle report tools must be in mmo game, without them the life of a leader of the group/clan/raid becomes hell, as it is very difficult to understand in more detail where and who makes mistakes, or does not perform their task at all, the most basic tool dps / hps meter can help improve the build, and in case someone in the group clearly become ballast, help him sort out this problem
You don't need a dps meter to improve your build game has a combat log. It should be clear if someone is not doing anything constantly, and if someone is not preforming to your liking its simply because you want to kick them and don't believe they can improve on their own without you yelling at them.
Only reason you want a dps meter is so you can stat pad for no reason in a game that isnt designed for a dps meter.
DPS meters shouldn't exist as AoC seems like it'll harbor the ability for players to really personalize their build for their playstyle that they want, and with something like a DPS meter there would eventually be a meta and the toxicity would start flooding in. DPS meters always harbor toxicity.
omg, one more guy ho cry that "DPS meters bring toxic in game"....
Dps\Hps meters give you much more power to scale your build so its MUST be 1000000% in mmo.
Another question is whether the information from these meters would be public or not. In terms of the head of Intrepid Studios being a fan of Lineage2 (there is no game more toxic than Lineage. And let's close the subject of toxicity I beg you, in mmo should not play people who can be offended if they are told that they are trash.) i'm sure that most things in the game associated with the character will be conditionally non-public as well as in Lineage, so the report / statistic of the battle will probably not be public.
For me personally, as I have written many times in this thread. Battle report tools must be in mmo game, without them the life of a leader of the group/clan/raid becomes hell, as it is very difficult to understand in more detail where and who makes mistakes, or does not perform their task at all, the most basic tool dps / hps meter can help improve the build, and in case someone in the group clearly become ballast, help him sort out this problem
You don't need a dps meter to improve your build game has a combat log. It should be clear if someone is not doing anything constantly, and if someone is not preforming to your liking its simply because you want to kick them and don't believe they can improve on their own without you yelling at them.
Only reason you want a dps meter is so you can stat pad for no reason in a game that isnt designed for a dps meter.
I don't understand your term "game that isnt designed for a dps meter", what is this bullshit?
the game can't be made for the dps meter... do you even understand what a "metric" is?
Metrics in any form can be applied to any numerical source (and not only numerical, but we are talking about them at the moment). So what the hell are you talking about?
Often dps/hps meters are just based on the combat log, so if there is a combat log it is very easy to make a simple dps meter.
As for the fact that dps counters are often used to show off to others, that has its place, and that is often what is used, but if one is truly better than others and trying harder than others, then why not, I personally don't care.
Personally for me it is important that the game would have an api, or advanced combat log, for example WoW (https://www.warcraftlogs.com), go and see if you never faced with what should look like an analysis of combat, and I need it in order to improve my team, who heals whom, to see who hits whom and when, in order to understand what targets my DD focus, etc.
DPS meters shouldn't exist as AoC seems like it'll harbor the ability for players to really personalize their build for their playstyle that they want, and with something like a DPS meter there would eventually be a meta and the toxicity would start flooding in. DPS meters always harbor toxicity.
omg, one more guy ho cry that "DPS meters bring toxic in game"....
Dps\Hps meters give you much more power to scale your build so its MUST be 1000000% in mmo.
Another question is whether the information from these meters would be public or not. In terms of the head of Intrepid Studios being a fan of Lineage2 (there is no game more toxic than Lineage. And let's close the subject of toxicity I beg you, in mmo should not play people who can be offended if they are told that they are trash.) i'm sure that most things in the game associated with the character will be conditionally non-public as well as in Lineage, so the report / statistic of the battle will probably not be public.
For me personally, as I have written many times in this thread. Battle report tools must be in mmo game, without them the life of a leader of the group/clan/raid becomes hell, as it is very difficult to understand in more detail where and who makes mistakes, or does not perform their task at all, the most basic tool dps / hps meter can help improve the build, and in case someone in the group clearly become ballast, help him sort out this problem
You don't need a dps meter to improve your build game has a combat log. It should be clear if someone is not doing anything constantly, and if someone is not preforming to your liking its simply because you want to kick them and don't believe they can improve on their own without you yelling at them.
Only reason you want a dps meter is so you can stat pad for no reason in a game that isnt designed for a dps meter.
I don't understand your term "game that isnt designed for a dps meter", what is this bullshit?
the game can't be made for the dps meter... do you even understand what a "metric" is?
Metrics in any form can be applied to any numerical source (and not only numerical, but we are talking about them at the moment). So what the hell are you talking about?
Often dps/hps meters are just based on the combat log, so if there is a combat log it is very easy to make a simple dps meter.
As for the fact that dps counters are often used to show off to others, that has its place, and that is often what is used, but if one is truly better than others and trying harder than others, then why not, I personally don't care.
Personally for me it is important that the game would have an api, or advanced combat log, for example WoW (https://www.warcraftlogs.com), go and see if you never faced with what should look like an analysis of combat, and I need it in order to improve my team, who heals whom, to see who hits whom and when, in order to understand what targets my DD focus, etc.
AoC is not world of warcraft, game is not based on instanced dungeons it is open world.
You can use combat log and test your damage there and find out what you have that is effective or not.
You might not care but it just shows how pointless DPs meters are, and makes people care more about numbers than understanding what is actually going on. You literarily do not need it nor is it a necessity, the combat log will do that plenty for you in viewing your damage.
No one wants you viewing their logs, it is not important you literarily just want that to flex when half of it is pointless be it rng, people stacking, or people just ignoring mechanics to push numbers while their team dies.
I'd really temper what u expect out of a PvX mmorpg compared to WoW that is focused on instanced dungeons where you can't be pvped in...
You might not care but it just shows how pointless DPs meters are, and makes people care more about numbers than understanding what is actually going on.
Your argument here reminds me of the recent thread about banning exploiters where the OP of that thread seems to not understand that more than one thing can happen - a developer can both fix an exploit AND ban the people that use an exploit.
Here, you seem to think that people can only care about numbers, or care about what is going on around them. You seem to be completely unaware that people can do both.
You might not care but it just shows how pointless DPs meters are, and makes people care more about numbers than understanding what is actually going on.
Your argument here reminds me of the recent thread about banning exploiters where the OP of that thread seems to not understand that more than one thing can happen - a developer can both fix an exploit AND ban the people that use an exploit.
Here, you seem to think that people can only care about numbers, or care about what is going on around them. You seem to be completely unaware that people can do both.
You can look in your combat log for numbers, funny that you would mention that because you also remind me of certain threads...Game is not designed like WoW no one needs a site logging everyone's information either. People can use tools in any form, and no a DPS meter isn't making you a better player. Having a good team that can clear the raid, and doing some quick test will easily show if your damage is higher or lower with combat log. DPS meters and wanting everyone to be tracked on a website is the first step to toxic mentality / gameplay.
Comments
I am not sure what objective data is as the alternative would be subjective data.
But if that is about accuracy, I want to add that Steven reduced the information available to enemies and still shows it to allies, because information is important
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Nameplate#Health
But health and damage are only the part of DPS meter, which is only a subset of combat trackers, as I understand it from this thread.
And having that information about what happened during a raid, at each moment and investigate it can be an interesting activity.
I only play MMO's if there is a tracker for me to use, and generally prefer it if one is available to all players that wish to use one.
If a tracker is available to all, and some opt to not use one, I am not concerned if that gives me an edge over them or not. They make the decision to not use it, which they are entitled to do, but all decisions have consequences.
Actively using a tracker is only really a direct advantage at the group or raid level. If you do not use a tracker, but still wish to be as objectively good at your class as you can be, you can achieve that via assistance from someone that uses a tracker, you do not need to use one yourself. From your perspective, this is not a whole lot different to getting assistance from someone that doesn't use a tracker - so is not something anyone should take issue with.
If all it takes to have access to a tracker is to equip an item, groups and raids will simply require players have and equip that item as a condition of entry. This removes player choice.
Having it limited, and indeed having it use up a resource, is in itself fine. In fact, that is the basis for my guild based tracker suggestion. It is limited to only those in your guild, and takes up a guild perk.
This is all done on the guild level rather than the player or character level, because a tracker is more of a benefit to the guild than the player, players tend to already join guilds with like minded players, and any attempt to put the ability to opt in or out of a tracker at the individual level will result in the above situation where it is required to be bought along on content.
Taking this out of the hands of the individual and placing it in the hands of the guild means no one can really require it, and even if they did, since the tracker only works with others within your guild, it would be pointless. Individual players still have the choice of using trackers or not, it is just a choice that is a factor of their choice of guild.
And since you don't have an opinion on games you don't play, you would not play that game.
Right. . . you're not much of a market and don't really enjoy video games lmao. Even I play some League of Legends.
Have you thought about what you actually enjoy? SCUM has a tracker btw. Most advanced simulated health tracker in a game. Might be more your style.
The issue I have is with how you want the game to be designed. The 'fantasy' where Trackers aren't really useful would stop you from playing because that is literally all you say you care about. . . and it would appeal to many many others. . .
Why do you even play MMOs? Shouldn't you be playing a sim?
Right. So if everyone has to wear a one-piece suit that takes up an under-armor layer and replaces another enchant option. . . and all the data goes to someone with a big data collection backpack. . . . that's fine with you? Even if the data feedback is not completely precise based on quality and durability of the one-piece? Top quality and full durability being 99.95% - 99.8% precise I guess.
With certain effects and mechanics not showing up due to that being part of that particular content's challenge? Or the person with the data collection backpack being targetted because they're some Dark Cleric and their Madness drives them to secrecy and silence? Always seeing the thread of information weave through things? So they focus fire the raid leader (you) and everyone wipes with your expensive data collection items destroyed?
You'd still play even if there are disruptive mechanics that disrupt these devices for half a second or more? 2 seconds? 3 seconds? 5 seconds? Maybe the precision drops to 1% then quickly reaches 90% in 1 second but takes 3 more seconds to reach 99.9% precise?
You have no reason to say shit like:
"I'm not concerned if trackers give me an edge over others or not"
but . . .
"I only play MMOs with trackers that are really a distinct advantage at the group or raid level"
You will not play a game with trackers, that aren't a distinct advantage at the raid or group level.
You say bullshit screw tongue shit all the time. Only other screw tongues like talking to you. Do you eat ass lmao? I am beginning to understand better who I am talking to.
He has been caught in a lot of bs, that is what I've ben saying. He actually tried to lie about the content around trackers. The more he talks the more he trips up because he is not coming from a genuine position, and not caring what others what or the devs. Unless they are supporting what he wants.
NO ONE WANTS A GAME MADE AROUND TRACKERS
And whatever is done to make them as ineffective as possible so people think using a tracker is useless is good. Which means no trackers in game is a great first step.
I mean, he's explained in the past that the only way to make trackers not be an advantage at the raid or group level is to make the enemies too simplistic or easy for the data to be useful. Perhaps you missed that? I don't recall exactly when you joined the thread. It's not strange for a high-end PvE player to ignore games with simplistic combat.
Trackers are useful for all complex or tactically difficult games. He's not saying "Trackers are useless, so I won't play." He's saying "The only way trackers can be useless is as a RESULT of the game being shit, and I don't play shit games."
And yes, we know, you want him to believe that trackers can be useless without a game being simplistic, and don't understand why he believes that's impossible. But since you haven't convinced him, that wish hasn't changed what HE is saying, or the basis of his statements. So what HE means, is still the "only shit games don't benefit from trackers" (note the direction of causality there, it's not that not having a tracker is the thing makes a game shit, he's saying that the game being shit is the reason that it doesn't have a tracker).
Perhaps you could return to trying to develop a concrete (more "this exactly how such a game would work" than "please imagine if it were possible") example of why his carefully considered perspective is wrong?
Why are you jumping in to defend him?
I asked questions and want Noaani to answer them.
If someone wants to play a certain kind of game that is fine.
But If trackers are in Ashes of Creation I'd like them to be similar to how I outlined them in my last post.
Perhaps you could let him answer my questions instead of asking me to change it?
Or are you going to claim those beliefs as your own so I can start interrogating them?
Just as I'm fine with Bard being in the game, but I don't want Bard to dominate the game. Hence some of my Bard suggestions that can be found elsewhere, for more out-of-combat/out-of-raid utility on Bard.
Just as I'm fine with Ranger being in the game, but I don't want Ranger to dominate the game. Hence some of my Ranger suggestions that can be found elsewhere, for more out-of-combat/out-of-raid utility on Ranger.
Just as I do not want classes to be entirely group or raid focused, I do not want Trackers to be entirely group or raid focused, and do not want them to dominate the meta for viability or be 'required'. In fact, I've thought of several ways the game could be better that is in direct conflict with the existence of trackers.
I've imagined several ways the game could be improved that also makes trackers less useful, and have imagined several ways limited information may be used as integral to gameplay. . . integral to power dynamics and to immersion. . . integral to class fantasy. . . integral to fun. . . expanding viable and sometimes necessary strategies and tactics . . . for a better game.
And I've talked about these things in this very thread already.
If none of that matters to you then you are selfish and greedy.
Limits to information and information acquisition is a rich source of gameplay mechanics that add to the depth and fun of the game.
Can you imagine a game besides MMOs where Trackers are useful?
Do you play them or not?
This is an extension of:
I never said this.
Why are you having to lie in order to make an argument here?
You have taken two statements and conflated them.
I said I will only plan an MMO if it has a tracker. Fortunately, literally every MMO ever made has had a tracker for those that want to use one, so this has never been an issue.
I also said - s a different statement - that trackers are only really an advantage at the guild level. This is because at the individual level, a player doesnt need to use a tracker in order to get the benefit of using a tracker. What this statement means in practice is that if one person in a guild is using a tracker, the guild is using a tracker.
I also said I prefer games where trackers are easily available to anyone that wants to use one.
Now, if you are playing a game where trackers are freely available, and you have a guild of 50 players wanting to take on the same content I take on, someone in that guild will be running a tracker. It would be statistically improbable for that to not be the case, and indeed I have doubts you would be able to even create such a guild on purpose in most games.
So, if one person in every guild has a tracker, and if trackers are an advantage at the guild level more than the individual level, I dont have an advantage over anyone going after the same content as me and my guild.
I know that doesnt fit your narrative, but that is how it is.
Why are you asking questions expecting (almost demanding) answers, when you are also refusing to answer others questions, and are also deliberately misquoting statements of people you are demanding answers from?
You are actually acting in nothing short of a disgusting manner in this thread, and if you think yourself a decent human, should be somewhat ashamed of yourself. And I mean that quite honestly.
This kind of behavior (a game having a class meta) will happen whether you have a combat tracker not.
Without a tracker, people will have a very small number of builds they are willing to accept from people they are not familiar with, but with a tracker they will be more willing to accept an off-build, and see how it performs.
I don't like it.
- It's not going to happen !
I recommend you to Go play new world or Wow.
Actually true
― Plato
With time, fast enough there will be reknown build for their efficiency. and also others for their inefficiency. no need a tracker for this... Even if sometime , those reknown are false...
You find a new build, or changed slightly a non efficient one, and you are sure you do more damages than most people with the reknown efficient build
The party leader have to chose between you and another one with the "efficient build" . . . You have no way to prove to be more efficient, aside your words. Do you really think party leader won't do the safe choice and don't blindly follow what everyone says and what all guide are saying ?
I hate meta, really... i often play out of meta, but for this, i need way to prove myself. How to prove myself if i have no value for it?
meta always existed in every game, and will always exist, the problem is simply : how to fight it. I think the best way is to give people accurate tools to prove themselves,
No proof, no trust, this is a thing i had to fast learn in online gaming... Not only on MMORPG,
But it is nothing more than a human reaction.
And if some ine dont need it just dont use it, and dont wright hear that GAME dont need it, bc like i say upper this functional MUSTHAVE for make yourself better
i not understend what is the problem of situation when team wanna see how much theyr player perform on boss fight? bc i dont wanna waste my time if some one in party just always afk, and we cant make progress bc of them?
I hope the developers will take as an example the functionality of addons WoW, and even better make something of their own and better.
p.s. I hope the developers will take more into account the opinion of people who want to develop and progress, and less on people who are constantly whining "why I got kicked out of the party? I just did nothing for the group in the dungeon, and they kicked me so they are bad ..."
A combat log us generally just a file that contains raw information.
A combat tracker parses that raw data, and presents it in an easier/faster to understand manner.
A DPS meter is a colloquial (and technically incorrect) term for a combat tracker. It is used mostly by people that dont really understand what a combat tracker actually does, and assumes it is just for DPS. In reality, a combat tracker can be used to track DPS, HPS, blocking, dodging, avoiding, hit rate, crit rate, curing/cleansing, buffing, debugging, CC, experience gain, coin gain, travel distance, gathering yields, crafting results, basically anything that can be associated with numbers.
Hope that helps.
Yup, makes sense, I've just never heard the term tracker before, I guess it makes sense because of ACT.
This thread has a habit of just showing up at times.
To me, it shows that people interested in this topic know how to use the search function.
ACT can be very usefull if they are used with the right approach but they can be used also in a very toxic way and same as OWPvP if toxicity is not addressed it will eventually outweigh the good things about the system/tools. So either we have to find a way to restrict toxic usage of such tools or if we cannot find a good way to do that better to just not have them in my opinion. For me personally WoW Mythic+ and Raiding was the most toxic experience i ever had in any mmorpg , because of people which dont use ACT correctly and use it just as excuse. In an environment where everybody are friends and just are looking to improve together and overcome challenges together ACT is very very useful there is no doubt about that, but the problem is the other side which unfortunately turns to be bigger.
omg, one more guy ho cry that "DPS meters bring toxic in game"....
Dps\Hps meters give you much more power to scale your build so its MUST be 1000000% in mmo.
Another question is whether the information from these meters would be public or not. In terms of the head of Intrepid Studios being a fan of Lineage2 (there is no game more toxic than Lineage. And let's close the subject of toxicity I beg you, in mmo should not play people who can be offended if they are told that they are trash.) i'm sure that most things in the game associated with the character will be conditionally non-public as well as in Lineage, so the report / statistic of the battle will probably not be public.
For me personally, as I have written many times in this thread. Battle report tools must be in mmo game, without them the life of a leader of the group/clan/raid becomes hell, as it is very difficult to understand in more detail where and who makes mistakes, or does not perform their task at all, the most basic tool dps / hps meter can help improve the build, and in case someone in the group clearly become ballast, help him sort out this problem
You don't need a dps meter to improve your build game has a combat log. It should be clear if someone is not doing anything constantly, and if someone is not preforming to your liking its simply because you want to kick them and don't believe they can improve on their own without you yelling at them.
Only reason you want a dps meter is so you can stat pad for no reason in a game that isnt designed for a dps meter.
I don't understand your term "game that isnt designed for a dps meter", what is this bullshit?
the game can't be made for the dps meter... do you even understand what a "metric" is?
Metrics in any form can be applied to any numerical source (and not only numerical, but we are talking about them at the moment). So what the hell are you talking about?
Often dps/hps meters are just based on the combat log, so if there is a combat log it is very easy to make a simple dps meter.
As for the fact that dps counters are often used to show off to others, that has its place, and that is often what is used, but if one is truly better than others and trying harder than others, then why not, I personally don't care.
Personally for me it is important that the game would have an api, or advanced combat log, for example WoW (https://www.warcraftlogs.com), go and see if you never faced with what should look like an analysis of combat, and I need it in order to improve my team, who heals whom, to see who hits whom and when, in order to understand what targets my DD focus, etc.
AoC is not world of warcraft, game is not based on instanced dungeons it is open world.
You can use combat log and test your damage there and find out what you have that is effective or not.
You might not care but it just shows how pointless DPs meters are, and makes people care more about numbers than understanding what is actually going on. You literarily do not need it nor is it a necessity, the combat log will do that plenty for you in viewing your damage.
No one wants you viewing their logs, it is not important you literarily just want that to flex when half of it is pointless be it rng, people stacking, or people just ignoring mechanics to push numbers while their team dies.
I'd really temper what u expect out of a PvX mmorpg compared to WoW that is focused on instanced dungeons where you can't be pvped in...
Here, you seem to think that people can only care about numbers, or care about what is going on around them. You seem to be completely unaware that people can do both.
You can look in your combat log for numbers, funny that you would mention that because you also remind me of certain threads...Game is not designed like WoW no one needs a site logging everyone's information either. People can use tools in any form, and no a DPS meter isn't making you a better player. Having a good team that can clear the raid, and doing some quick test will easily show if your damage is higher or lower with combat log. DPS meters and wanting everyone to be tracked on a website is the first step to toxic mentality / gameplay.