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lets talk about the state of the game and combat

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Comments

  • edited May 2023
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    I don't like the way these questions are asked. If an MMO with awesome healers existed then I would be playing it.
    Maybe healer isn't the role for you.

    Try playing a rogue or bard.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    1sab3la wrote: »
    You clearly needed to be enlightened (your words). Mine would be educated. Your obviously a late bloomer WoW player.

    You can only teach me how to unreasonably doubt myself if I listen to your words. And its arrogance that can mislead you to think that a person who is approaching me with ulterior motives is capable of providing me with what I need.

    It has been established that the current direction of Cleric's design has aspects that resonate with people who pursue regression. Nobody could ever provide more valuable feedback than this.

    Out of curiosity and an attempt to better understand you views.
    What MMO do you think did healers the best?
    What MMO do you think has the best over all class design and why?
    What MMO do you think has the best combat system?

    I don't like the way these questions are asked. If an MMO with awesome healers existed then I would be playing it.

    I can give an example with FFXIV.

    There are three roles: Tank, DPS and Healers.

    As a healer you can be: White Mage, Scholar, Astrologian, Sage

    The game works with GCDs and oGCDs. You have 2 damage GCDs which you press on cooldown throughout a fight.
    You have healing oGCDs whose usage you try to optimize in order to increase your damage output by not resorting to healing GCDs.

    This is the healer gameplay of FFXIV.

    There are four healing jobs but they all do the same. There is some odd gimick here and there like White Mage's lily system but it is functionally doing what the oGCDs of the other three jobs do.


    I don't like it. It is not entertaining.

    FFXIV is considered a successful MMO. I agree that there are aspects of the game that I liked. I also genuinely enjoyed playing a healer for a time. But that time has passed and I will not be returning to the game unless they rework their healers. I have already completed every level of difficulty. Yoshi-P's statement about us doing an ultimate if we wanted to heal also proved to me and other healer mains that he is out of touch with the state of healers in his game. I did his new ultimate within a month since its release. Guess what happened. My gameplay and decision-making is exactly the same as it is in Savage. The only difference is that I am even more reliant on well coordinated group mitigation because some AoEs deal 170%+ max hp of a non-tank.

    There were 6 bosses in The Omega Protocol Ultimate. The fight is 19 mins long. I have used 276 GCDs for my nuke and 29 for my DoT. These are my only two damaging GCDs. In comparison, the total amount of healing GCDs used was 33. Most of these were used were during downtime. My offensive GCDs do not synergize in any way with the rest of my kit. So essentially I am pressing filler buttons throughout most of the fight. This is the hardest content in the entire game. The most challenging content they could offer to healers.

    Ashes is a PvX game. They put Clerics, a healing archetype, in the same category as Bards, a non-healing archetype. Their small PvE is doable without healers. At higher levels Tanks and Bards can choose Cleric for secondary archetype which further diminishes the need to bring a healer. No aggro nonsense, no mp issues. You never want to bring a healer when you don't need one. You lose damage, you lose time.

    Cleric as a base archetype is going to be irrelevant in PvE. And because its unique utility is inconsequential, the developers will make it overpowered so that people opt in to play it. This in turn will affect the PvP dynamics of the game negatively. It's that simple. The game can last for 10 years or more. It won't change the fact that the healers are bad unless they are designed well.

    I don't like the way these questions are asked. If an MMO with awesome healers existed then I would be playing it.

    Why? I am asking your opinion of what you consider good class design.
    What would you consider a good healing class.

    I personally liked the Chloromancer from Rift. It was a lot of fun for the first few expansions.


    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Archetypes

    Skills will come only from your primary archetype. Anything/cleric will not gain any direct heals.

    Bards are intended to amplify a party or raid's ability to perform within their own class. That amplification isn't just intended for DPS, but also for support, for healing, for taking damage, for movement. Bards have often been portrayed as a musical class and while they can be that, many Bard applications may exist in just telling a story. Telling a story is going to be the thematic component of how the Bard interacts with the party. And that story is going to enhance player's abilities to perform. Very similar in a way to buffing up a party, but you are not going to see him as a "buff bot" that you might have experienced in previous games, where they are only good for their buffs and then you kick them out of party and they sit in a corner and come back in 30 minutes. Those buffs are going to be related to how they perform.[11] – Steven Sharif

    Bards have been stated as support and will probably have AOE healing.
    Bard skills/abilities

    Bards fill a tactical non-healing support role. They will have more significance based on their mobility and placement in the battle.[12][13][14]}

    Bards will have a wide range of abilities to choose from, such as wordsmithing, acting, and musical aspects.[15]
    Bards will be able to play musical instruments, such as flutes and bagpipes.[16][15][17][18]

    Bard buffs include Songs, Stories, and Dances.[12][19]
    Bards can choose to activate buffs that augment tanking, evasion, DPS and healing abilities in their proximity.[20]
    Some buffs are related to how the bard performs in combat: If a bard lands a skill shot against a target, allies within a certain range might be granted a temporary buff that relates to the skill that the bard used.[11]
    Bards can offer proximity-based or proc-based healing, but to a much lesser degree than Clerics.[12][13][21]
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    Yeah. There have been issues with every iteration. Sometimes I think too many chefs spoil the broth but I remain vocal about improvements lol.

    Just gotta not do what 95% of the community ends up doing and that’s backseat develop.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    I don't like it. It is not entertaining.
    So what exactly do you want and consider entertaining? More dps? Cause unless I assumed wrong, you seem to disregard pure healers as OP or smth, so pure healers are probably not fun for you either. And if you just want more dps on a healer, then I agree with Noaani, healer just doesn't seem like the role for you.
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Cleric as a base archetype is going to be irrelevant in PvE. And because its unique utility is inconsequential, the developers will make it overpowered so that people opt in to play it. This in turn will affect the PvP dynamics of the game negatively. It's that simple. The game can last for 10 years or more. It won't change the fact that the healers are bad unless they are designed well.
    Well then it's good that the game is pvx and not just pve. Any valuable pve will be fought over and you will not survive against a party w/ a healer if your party doesn't have one. And if you were expecting Ashes to have pve-based balancing of class design - that won't be the case.
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  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I'm not sure if you want a heal bot or not. I really don't like heal bots. Waiting for damage to occur really sucks the higher skill cap the group is. Its why I love to solo heal or heal pick up groups. Unfortunately, my old guild used to rant about me 'preferring to raid with others rather than the guild'. It's why I get bored with instances on farm too.
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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    I suggested giving Clerics agency over the respawning system. It is the system with the greatest number of reasons that discourage PvP interactions.
    What exactly does this entail, as you envision it?
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Resurrection scrolls can benefit the whole team. I don't see why it should be Cleric exclusive. Why should all Clerics be forced to take resurrection? It becomes a cookie cutter dichotomy then. If you refer to respawn points then I believe the balance would be destroyed. The devs aren't balancing around 1vs1 but against large vs large. If there are no breaks in PvP due to a respawn point on a team's face then spawn camping becomes an issue.
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  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I don't know of a single instance of respawn point control on a healer. I've seen healers destroy respawn points though. I just don't see the remit or the reason. It's like you want to take all of the risk away from respawning.
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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    edited May 2023
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    I don't know. You are asking me about a concept I could spend weeks and months thinking about how to integrate it into a game. It is not a simple thing because it's not a design anyone has already come up with.
    Ah, ok, now these past few days make waaaay more sense. You've just got complaints about the standards of the genre, but you have no solutions for them, let alone properly thoughtout ones. Got it.

    And I'm gonna reread all your messages later just to make sure I'm not mistaken in this (and will edit this post later), but I think even your complaints have been super vague, which most likely stems from you not knowing what you even want.

    edit: I went through the 2 threads that touched on the cleric discussion and the main theme has been "pure healers are OP", "I want smth new, but the new mechanic that Intrepid designed will feel bad, so not that kind of new", "proactive healers with dmg/heal abilities sound weird, but I dislike that healers are just reactive", and the two comments of "I'm not sure about any of this" in context of those pro-/re-active healers and this respawn gameplay, though the respawn discussion progressed somewhat which is a plus.

    Overall the comments just come off as confused and contradictory, especially considering that Niem allegedly played a ton of healers in the past. Reactive is bad, proactive is bad, combo mechanics are bad, pure healer is bad, combat healer is boring. To me that kinda encapsulates pretty much any and all incarnations of healers in this genre, so I really don't see how Niem considers themselves a healer when they dislike literally the entire class' gameplay scheme.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    The role was originally created to deal with the inconvenience of unavoidable damage in content.
    Oh, so now you've seen the content in Ashes as it will be at launch?
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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    edited May 2023
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    That process also gives Clerics foresight that allows them to detect and destroy the fountains of other Clerics.
    Are these fountains connected to the nearest dungeon? As in, does the energy go up if you kill only the dungeon's mobs? Cause otherwise people will just grind up some random mobs to get the energy to go destroy everyone's fountains before even entering the dungeon.

    How does the buff interact with the party composition? Is it just "buff anyone who's currently in the party"? Cause I definitely foresee alt clerics with built up energy just standing on stand by, in case the party needs a second buff.
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Simple things like this turn a PvP encounter that would have ended in a few minutes in a fight with options. Of course, there is room for improvement on what I have written, but I hope you can understand how this can enhance the PvP in the game.
    L2 had a party recall ability that would just TP out the party if they thought they'd lose the pvp. It was one of the most hated and looked down upon mechanics in the game. Only the weakest players would use it and a ton of pvp videos would always mock people who did.

    Also, how exactly does this TP out of the dungeon interact with all the stuff you looted in the dungeon? Cause to me this just sounds like the easiest way to escape from the depth of a dungeon w/o any risk of running into a trap set up by your enemies.

    In other words, this sounds like a pretty bad mechanic that would make pvp dull and would, in most cases, just lead to full pvp avoidance instead of encouragement. Rez items, instead, encourage pvp because you know that you can keep going even if a few of your members die. And cleric doing a ton of healing also supports more pvp, because it prolongs the fight and great clerics can turn the tide of the fight with a few correct moves.

    But this is progress. This is at least a direction and a suggestion, rather than just complains about Intrepid's utter talentless existence.
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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Yes, they are connected only to the dungeon and you can place them near the entrance.
    I don't understand what you mean by built-up energy from an alt Cleric. Dungeons are group content, an alt Cleric cannot possibly solo it to build up energy for another group. Also, these fountains are connected only to the people the Cleric was in a party with at the moment of creation. If someone leaves the party at any point, they disconnect from the fountain as well.
    So any member switches would mean that the party becomes weaker. This kinda fucks over most pugs, because afaik they quite often can change their roster throughout a farming session, because someone gotta afk or leave.

    This would also apply to any guild parties that have several people that play at slightly different times, while some stay throughout the whole evening.

    I guess that could be chucked up to "you can't win everything" design, but in context of potentially a lot of pvp, I dunno how many people would be willing to suffer the consequences of someone's irl situation influencing the gameplay (cause I'd imagine that fountain buffs will influence overall balancing of the game, so any party that can't get them will most likely lose out against people that were prepared to fight against a properly buffed group).

    The alternative is to go remake the fountain every time your party composition changes, but that would mean giving up your loot/spot/progress, so it doesn't really change the issue.
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    You cannot just TP out of the dungeon. I have already mentioned the conditions required for this action to be performed.
    Yes, you mentioned a single death to get the ability to TP everyone out. Even if you limit this to purely pvp deaths, people will just bring an alt with them that can kill their sacrificial lamb. Or, hell, you wouldn't even need an alt. You'd just go kill yourself against any potential foe in the dungeon and TP the whole party out thanks to that death.
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  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I don't really want fast travel though...
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  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    I don't like the way these questions are asked. If an MMO with awesome healers existed then I would be playing it.
    Maybe healer isn't the role for you.

    Try playing a rogue or bard.

    I agree that playing a functionally useless role is not for me. However, that's not the same as not wanting to play a healer. Healers become useless when developers forget that their sole purpose is not to idle around and spectate how others play the game. The role was originally created to deal with the inconvenience of unavoidable damage in content. Progressively depraving your game from such is akin to removing the threat system. It is better to avoid creating a healer role altogether. Newer MMOs are avoiding this role for a reason.

    In the case of FFXIV, using your filler DPS abilities is the only way to contribute with anything meaningful.

    You make some very valid points but dont feel your feedback is out of place because you dont know 100% what the end game product is. That argument on this forum is used to shut people up from giving feedback on this game, where IS has asked us to do just that. Healer is often one of my fav roles in MMOs and I walked away from ESO because healers were ignored for so long, they became not needed at end game. An entire community was displaced from the game. I 100% agree IS needs to be aware of the healer communities needs. We can judge what we see so far and I myself love most of what I have seen but as of late, the more skill kits I see, the more I have questions and feel IS is making some mistakes.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    You drop loot after dying, also you give up on the dungeon. That alone should be enough of a penalty for escaping.
    You won't drop anything, because the sacrificial lamb won't have anything to drop. If your suggestion requires this to be a flagged death - the lamb will even suffer half the death penalties. This is literally nothing, when compared to the whole group dying and dropping their valuable loot (even if at a halved rate). TPing the whole group out means circumventing the pvp system, not improving it. Again, I know this because I literally played with this system for years. And that was in a game where you could already TP at will. Ashes won't have that (outside of Sci metro TP to vassal centers) and the game will be balanced around not having it. Giving players an easy out of pvp defeats the whole purpose of having that pvp in the first place.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    I don't like the way these questions are asked. If an MMO with awesome healers existed then I would be playing it.
    Maybe healer isn't the role for you.

    Try playing a rogue or bard.

    I agree that playing a functionally useless role is not for me. However, that's not the same as not wanting to play a healer. Healers become useless when developers forget that their sole purpose is not to idle around and spectate how others play the game. The role was originally created to deal with the inconvenience of unavoidable damage in content. Progressively depraving your game from such is akin to removing the threat system. It is better to avoid creating a healer role altogether. Newer MMOs are avoiding this role for a reason.

    In the case of FFXIV, using your filler DPS abilities is the only way to contribute with anything meaningful.

    You make some very valid points but dont feel your feedback is out of place because you dont know 100% what the end game product is. That argument on this forum is used to shut people up from giving feedback on this game, where IS has asked us to do just that. Healer is often one of my fav roles in MMOs and I walked away from ESO because healers were ignored for so long, they became not needed at end game. An entire community was displaced from the game. I 100% agree IS needs to be aware of the healer communities needs. We can judge what we see so far and I myself love most of what I have seen but as of late, the more skill kits I see, the more I have questions and feel IS is making some mistakes.

    We have not seen much of anything...You are grasping at straws. All we have are previews with the mage the only one to have shown a significant amount of skills on the cd even if they were not all used or all finished....

    No one is trying to shut anyone up it is simply logic, you need to actually see a decent amount on the class so you have room to judge. If you aren't shown enough logic dictates you need to see more before you start critically judging.

    I really shouldn't have to say not only is this alpha but you are only getting a tiny preview of the class. If you have any judgement it should be on the main thing they pointed out with the cleric mechanic.
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  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Resurrection isn't fast travel. You could argue respawn points are fast travel but the death penalties should prevent spawn point hops. I tend to not like Totems and the Fountains sound like Totems to me too.
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  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    lp
    Niem Lumel wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    I don't really want fast travel though...

    Resurrection is fast travel

    Resurrection is not fast travel in a game with consequences. Again you are comparing pve focused games to a pvx one that has consequences. You aren't equipped for this design discussion at this point.
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