I mean, they just officially announced the next expansion for EQ2. Dead games don't get new expansions.
The joke here is you thinking Steam players are an accurate metric for a game that has never pushed Steam as a sales avenue, and are putting it, amusingly, against a game that has (EQ).
Actually, Ashes is closer to a successor to EQ/EQ2, as many of Intrepids core staff worked on either or both of those games.
Intrepid has no developers on staff that worked on BDO.
As to your comment that I dont look at other games with an open mind, this is just untrue. While I had a reasonable understanding of the game, my discussions 2with NiKr on these forums has led me to appreciate specific aspects of that game more (even if my main issue with the game holds true).
The fact is, you haven't put forward any arguments in regards to BDO, and have said nothing about the game at all that i do not already know.
All you know about EQ2 is what a few people have shown in videos. You have no reason to assume the videos are of competent players, yet you seem to just assume they are. I have no idea why this is, but you are going to some great lengths to maintain this assumption.
And they have people that worked on planetside as well so that means it will be great for shooter elements by that logic. Like developers have not work on multiple games between eq and AoC. Nice assumption there by the way lmao, i don't see EQ on their inspirations for combat ;o.
Fact is i put arguments out there but you are so bias you can't see any common ground you, there is no reasoning with you as you skew everything to your bias on tab target. Else you wouldn't make statements on speed vrs BDO as you haven't done real pvp on the game. Me on the other hand have been open to you point out things but you are so far up your own ass that rather than having a actual conversion and being honest about videos. You try to say everything is shit, and there is no videos out there because it is not the content you do which makes no sense isn't the top 1% is not the NORMAL experience of a player.
The videos are the videos that is what is out there, if it doesn't exist that is a shame for you. I'm not going to take ignore on videos online because its not what you view is competent. But if you want to sit down, stop talking shit and have an actual discussion im up for you point out in the video the things they did wrong and how they could have done certain actions faster. If the only point is he is clicking even though he is at the very least roughly matching the speed between que times you can keep that point but it doesn't change that much. Camera literarily you don't even need to control you just need a general los and your moves will hit them which makes it very easy if you are range.
Cut the bs, cut the slights, talk facts, cut the stretching of concepts and we can compare facts one to one between BDO and EQ2 in a honest discussion.
And they have people that worked on planetside as well so that means it will be great for shooter elements by that logic.
I mean, if Intrepid opt to add in MMOFPS elements, having people that have worked on Planetside (most of whom also worked on EQ2, as they are from the same developer/publisher) is a good thing.
A good number of the developers working at Intrepid literally came right from EQ2. I dont have an exact number, but I personally know of three that did - and this is from back when Intrepid only had 25 or so employees.
Keep in mind, just because you say EQ2 is dead, that doesnt mean it is. Even now, it is still getting expansions. Expansions require developers.
But if you want to sit down, stop talking shit and have an actual discussion im up for you point out in the video the things they did wrong and how they could have done certain actions faster.
I mean, basically every ability the player used was wrong. Their positioning was wrong. The people they opted to attack were wrong. The gear they are using is wrong. The spec they have is wrong.
It would take less time to point out what they did right rather than what the my did wrong. The video isn't of someone trying to show how good they are.
While I dont have the context for the video, it would make perfect sense if it was someone trying to highlight how overpowered the class was in PvP, by doing everything "wrong" and still getting some kills.
The issue here though isnt with the video, it is with you thinking the video means anything. It's with you thinking you can see how a game plays by looking at a video.
Cut the bs, cut the slights, talk facts, cut the stretching of concepts and we can compare facts one to one between BDO and EQ2 in a honest discussion.
Not about to cut the 'slights' as you say, because I have always and will always point out the negative aspects of games and game genres. I point out negative aspects of EQ2 at times, but only to people that understand them.
As to the rest, I have been the one talking facts here. You are the one saying things like it being your opinion that a cast bar and GCD is the same thing.
Literally all I have been doing this whole thread is talking facts (and having a dig at action games). You are the one unable to a cept facts when they do not align with your assumption of how different games work (or, as you would say, head cannon).
Now, if you want to talk facts, ee can. Thing is, this is how it will have to go;
You ask me a question, then I answer it. From there, you assume the answer I gave you is factually correct if it related to general aspects of MMO's or to EQ2 at all.
The singular reason you can safely assume any answer I give to be factually correct is simple. As the most prolific poster on these forums (for better or worse) there are a lot of people that will always jump at the chance to prove me wrong. As such, if someone I say is wrong, or is not in line with their experience, they will point this out.
An example of this was in either this or the other thread recently. In explaining the GCD in EQ2, someone said that it wasnt how their understanding of a GCD worked. Since this person was someone that I have had discussions before, and have an amount of respect for, I was happy to reply by explaining the difference between the GCD in EQ2 (which isnt actually called a GCD, but that is unimportant), and the GCD in WoW.
So, if you have questions for me, ask. Just assume the answer I give is correct.
And they have people that worked on planetside as well so that means it will be great for shooter elements by that logic.
I mean, if Intrepid opt to add in MMOFPS elements, having people that have worked on Planetside (most of whom also worked on EQ2, as they are from the same developer/publisher) is a good thing.
A good number of the developers working at Intrepid literally came right from EQ2. I dont have an exact number, but I personally know of three that did - and this is from back when Intrepid only had 25 or so employees.
Keep in mind, just because you say EQ2 is dead, that doesnt mean it is. Even now, it is still getting expansions. Expansions require developers.
But if you want to sit down, stop talking shit and have an actual discussion im up for you point out in the video the things they did wrong and how they could have done certain actions faster.
I mean, basically every ability the player used was wrong. Their positioning was wrong. The people they opted to attack were wrong. The gear they are using is wrong. The spec they have is wrong.
It would take less time to point out what they did right rather than what the my did wrong. The video isn't of someone trying to show how good they are.
While I dont have the context for the video, it would make perfect sense if it was someone trying to highlight how overpowered the class was in PvP, by doing everything "wrong" and still getting some kills.
The issue here though isnt with the video, it is with you thinking the video means anything. It's with you thinking you can see how a game plays by looking at a video.
Cut the bs, cut the slights, talk facts, cut the stretching of concepts and we can compare facts one to one between BDO and EQ2 in a honest discussion.
Not about to cut the 'slights' as you say, because I have always and will always point out the negative aspects of games and game genres. I point out negative aspects of EQ2 at times, but only to people that understand them.
As to the rest, I have been the one talking facts here. You are the one saying things like it being your opinion that a cast bar and GCD is the same thing.
Literally all I have been doing this whole thread is talking facts (and having a dig at action games). You are the one unable to a cept facts when they do not align with your assumption of how different games work (or, as you would say, head cannon).
Now, if you want to talk facts, ee can. Thing is, this is how it will have to go;
You ask me a question, then I answer it. From there, you assume the answer I gave you is factually correct if it related to general aspects of MMO's or to EQ2 at all.
The singular reason you can safely assume any answer I give to be factually correct is simple. As the most prolific poster on these forums (for better or worse) there are a lot of people that will always jump at the chance to prove me wrong. As such, if someone I say is wrong, or is not in line with their experience, they will point this out.
An example of this was in either this or the other thread recently. In explaining the GCD in EQ2, someone said that it wasnt how their understanding of a GCD worked. Since this person was someone that I have had discussions before, and have an amount of respect for, I was happy to reply by explaining the difference between the GCD in EQ2 (which isnt actually called a GCD, but that is unimportant), and the GCD in WoW.
So, if you have questions for me, ask. Just assume the answer I give is correct.
Then lets break it down at what speed are you waiting for skills, are you able to use skills during a skill being used during the cast time. What is the normal average cast time of skills in general.
When I say slights I'm overly hostile takes be it with a game or with the person. You slighting BDO while not doing pvp which is the main content for the pvp will not give you a better understanding of the combat system. There is a lot to learn with it and it takes a good amount of time to master the combat with a lot of things in the game that there is no tutorial for you just have to figure it out.
The issue is I present a video and you won't go into detail about what goes on in it. So if there is more skils that can be used that a person might not see you can easily explain it. Example would be like SWTOR you have your cooldown but you have skills you can use off cool down. But I can't use a skill in the middle of a cast time else it would interrupt it. So if there is more you see we have a video and you can explain some points on it rather then saying every single video on youtube is trash that isn't really the best argument. Also you shouldn't consider the 1% as what people normally do, that isn't logical, it needs to be from a more fair point as games aren't designed for the 1% (well besides diablo immortal).
I'm not going to jump in and prove you wrong on something EQ related if you are point it out, using the video as a base. Example being saying why they could be using more skills than they are, why would I argue you can't do something like that. But ill be aware of it. In this conversation with speed button press is just the first layer but not the last step in determining speed of gameplay.
Be it you agree with me or not on how I view GCD, I don't really feel there is much point arguing on that point. I can say we just won't agree on that part as I view it as a more dynamic system as long as you constantly have cast times involved on all skills. It worked like that in CoH and I still view that as GCD, but to reduce the arguing I will just say cast time. Both slow down combat and make it feel more choppy and less dynamic..
Then lets break it down at what speed are you waiting for skills, are you able to use skills during a skill being used during the cast time. What is the normal average cast time of skills in general.
I am unsure what you mean by waiting for skills.
Some abilities are able to be used while you are casting another ability.
The average cast time is very class dependent. A DPS spell caster has a base average spell cast time of perhaps 3 seconds, and a melee DPS class has an average of perhaps 0.7 seconds (most abilities being 0.5, with a few big hitters increasing the average time).
However, keep in mind, these are the base averages. Based on spec and gear, it is easy for a player to cut these times in half - if the player is able to manage it.
You slighting BDO while not doing pvp which is the main content for the pvp will not give you a better understanding of the combat system.
I never said I didn't PvP.
All I have said about PvP in BDO is that generally speaking, if it is 1v1 PvP, my opponent would run if they were able to do so.
The issue is I present a video and you won't go into detail about what goes on in it.
Actually, the issue is that with the amount of time it would take to explain to you what is wrong with that video, it would literally take less of your time (let alone my time) for you to log in to EQ2, create a character, play it up to level 120, assign the 500 or so points across 12 or so different trees to create your spec, and then see the combat for yourself.
I said very early on that there is no point in looking at videos of EQ2 in order to attempt to gain an understanding of the games combat. This stands true, despite you ignoring that statement.
Also you shouldn't consider the 1% as what people normally do
I am not talking about the 1%.
While it is up for debate if I would fall in to the 1% in EQ2 (definitely the 5%), I have spent 20 years discussing MMO's from a design and development perspective. This requires looking at the game from perspectives that are not your own. Due to having looked at games in this manner for so long, this is now my default means for looking at any MMO.
I rarely look at games from my own perspective, I look at them from the perspective of an average player within different in game communities (an average raider, and average casual player, an average crafter, an average PvP player, etc).
Be it you agree with me or not on how I view GCD, I don't really feel there is much point arguing on that point.
This depends.
Do you want to go about having opinions in place of facts? I mean, opinions absolutely have their place, don't get me wrong. However, they are not a substitute for actual fact.
If you are happy going about having opinions where you should know facts instead, then yeah, there is no point in discussing it. On the other hand, if you would rather know what you are talking about, then ask.
As an aside, people that value opinion over fact are the people behind some of the stupidest things happening in the world (including things like Pizzagate, flat earth, Covid denial, and even Brexit). In my mind, replacing fact with opinion is not something people should strive for - but it's up to you.
Some abilities are able to be used while you are casting another ability.
The average cast time is very class dependent. A DPS spell caster has a base average spell cast time of perhaps 3 seconds, and a melee DPS class has an average of perhaps 0.7 seconds (most abilities being 0.5, with a few big hitters increasing the average time).
However, keep in mind, these are the base averages. Based on spec and gear, it is easy for a player to cut these times in half - if the player is able to manage it.
When i say waiting for skills I'm talking about as you are casting. So how often can you cast spells / use skills on average within a second? (If there are skills that can be used in the middle of caster like a rogue skill for example while the bar is still going how many of those exist as well?)
Some abilities are able to be used while you are casting another ability.
The average cast time is very class dependent. A DPS spell caster has a base average spell cast time of perhaps 3 seconds, and a melee DPS class has an average of perhaps 0.7 seconds (most abilities being 0.5, with a few big hitters increasing the average time).
However, keep in mind, these are the base averages. Based on spec and gear, it is easy for a player to cut these times in half - if the player is able to manage it.
When i say waiting for skills I'm talking about as you are casting. So how often can you cast spells / use skills on average within a second? (If there are skills that can be used in the middle of caster like a rogue skill for example while the bar is still going how many of those exist as well?)
I'm still not sure what you meat by "at what speed do you wait for skills", but I can ignore that and answer this question.
It depends on your class and build. My DPS caster had perhaps 3 or 4 abilities that could be used while another spell was being cast, but they were mostly self buffs.
Some other classes have significantly more than that.
It is worth pointing out though, that even though there is often a high number of actions needed in a tab target game, that isn't the games actual focus - at least in relation to EQ2. A DPS caster class, for example, is more focused on using the right ability, rather than using many abilities. You will halve your performance if you just go for most casts per minute or what ever. If you want to be at the top of your game, you need to consider each spell you cast, and occasionally be ready to cancel a spell mid cast based on what is happening.
However, other classes are about other things - melee DPS is about rhythm, as I have explained. If you can not maintain the correct rhythm (keeping in mind positioning and skill selection), you will again be at half your effectiveness - or worse.
Healers though, they seem to be able the same in both, generally speaking.
Another thing to keep in mind, if you are wanting to get an idea about the pace of combat in a tab target game, is that positioning is key. While aiming may be important in an action game, positioning is far more important in a tab target game than it is in any action game I have played.
Some classes, for example, have abilities that can only be used in front of the target, behind the target or beside the target. This means you are having to constantly move around said target. Keep in mind, this is in a game genre where the vast majority of abilities do not move you at all - meaning that the player has to perform all of that movement on their own. The reason this makes positioning more important than in an action game is because they player has to actually take in to consideration when they are going to make the move around the target, rather than most action games that happen to have that movement action tied in to the abilities you would want to use anyway (developers do this on purpose, by the way).
Where many action games will have classes where a combo that you use will have one of the abilities cause your character to end up behind or beside the target due to the movement component of the ability, a similar combo in a tab target game would require the player to make that move, usually while also using some specific abilities.
Even in the case of a DPS caster, positioning is important. My class, as an example, had a massive damage spell that only had a range of 5 meters (35 was standard). However, it also had a cone shaped AoE, and would deal damage to up to three targets in that area (which was never actually shown to players, you just had to know the area it affected). Since caster DPS needed to spend as much time at range as possible, but since we also needed to use this ability in order to be at full effectiveness, we needed to work out how to factor in a 30 meter trip in to the target, a 30 meter trip back away from the target, as well as working in any of the self buffs or mob debuffs we wanted active while we cast this massive damage spell (that was usually the biggest single hits in the entire raid - and we were getting up to three hits per cast).
Basically, what I am saying here is that focusing on ability use in combat is only telling half the story. Since all movement in a tab target game needs to be done by the player independent of abilities (mostly), and since positioning is of utmost importance, there is a LOT of movement in combat. There is more character movement (ie, using WASD) in EQ2 than in any action game I have played - even if there appears to be more movement in most action games due to most (or indeed all) abilities having a movement component to them.
Love to see interesting theory crafting happening! I look forward to the development update livestreams to come in which the team can showcase updates for us on combat ^_^
Remember, you can always ask questions in the Q&A thread for clarification!
Some abilities are able to be used while you are casting another ability.
The average cast time is very class dependent. A DPS spell caster has a base average spell cast time of perhaps 3 seconds, and a melee DPS class has an average of perhaps 0.7 seconds (most abilities being 0.5, with a few big hitters increasing the average time).
However, keep in mind, these are the base averages. Based on spec and gear, it is easy for a player to cut these times in half - if the player is able to manage it.
When i say waiting for skills I'm talking about as you are casting. So how often can you cast spells / use skills on average within a second? (If there are skills that can be used in the middle of caster like a rogue skill for example while the bar is still going how many of those exist as well?)
I'm still not sure what you meat by "at what speed do you wait for skills", but I can ignore that and answer this question.
It depends on your class and build. My DPS caster had perhaps 3 or 4 abilities that could be used while another spell was being cast, but they were mostly self buffs.
Some other classes have significantly more than that.
It is worth pointing out though, that even though there is often a high number of actions needed in a tab target game, that isn't the games actual focus - at least in relation to EQ2. A DPS caster class, for example, is more focused on using the right ability, rather than using many abilities. You will halve your performance if you just go for most casts per minute or what ever. If you want to be at the top of your game, you need to consider each spell you cast, and occasionally be ready to cancel a spell mid cast based on what is happening.
However, other classes are about other things - melee DPS is about rhythm, as I have explained. If you can not maintain the correct rhythm (keeping in mind positioning and skill selection), you will again be at half your effectiveness - or worse.
Healers though, they seem to be able the same in both, generally speaking.
Another thing to keep in mind, if you are wanting to get an idea about the pace of combat in a tab target game, is that positioning is key. While aiming may be important in an action game, positioning is far more important in a tab target game than it is in any action game I have played.
Some classes, for example, have abilities that can only be used in front of the target, behind the target or beside the target. This means you are having to constantly move around said target. Keep in mind, this is in a game genre where the vast majority of abilities do not move you at all - meaning that the player has to perform all of that movement on their own. The reason this makes positioning more important than in an action game is because they player has to actually take in to consideration when they are going to make the move around the target, rather than most action games that happen to have that movement action tied in to the abilities you would want to use anyway (developers do this on purpose, by the way).
Where many action games will have classes where a combo that you use will have one of the abilities cause your character to end up behind or beside the target due to the movement component of the ability, a similar combo in a tab target game would require the player to make that move, usually while also using some specific abilities.
Even in the case of a DPS caster, positioning is important. My class, as an example, had a massive damage spell that only had a range of 5 meters (35 was standard). However, it also had a cone shaped AoE, and would deal damage to up to three targets in that area (which was never actually shown to players, you just had to know the area it affected). Since caster DPS needed to spend as much time at range as possible, but since we also needed to use this ability in order to be at full effectiveness, we needed to work out how to factor in a 30 meter trip in to the target, a 30 meter trip back away from the target, as well as working in any of the self buffs or mob debuffs we wanted active while we cast this massive damage spell (that was usually the biggest single hits in the entire raid - and we were getting up to three hits per cast).
Basically, what I am saying here is that focusing on ability use in combat is only telling half the story. Since all movement in a tab target game needs to be done by the player independent of abilities (mostly), and since positioning is of utmost importance, there is a LOT of movement in combat. There is more character movement (ie, using WASD) in EQ2 than in any action game I have played - even if there appears to be more movement in most action games due to most (or indeed all) abilities having a movement component to them.
I was planning to get more into the detail of ability use later as we would be jumping all over the place if we don't focus on one element at time time do tot he complexity of rpg elements in mmorpgs.
--Positioning --
Since we are talking about EQ2 vrs BDO I can not agree that eq2 requires nearly as much position as bdo it is completely night and day. That being said I'm aware of position in tab target mmos where certain skills only being able to be used from certain positions. You move around your target or through your target, as well as use your aoes as needed (though aoes that do not need a target is akin to action combat. Which shows the direction of combat in mmorpgs has been leading to since awhile whenever that kind of skill is added). I will do it in point form so its easier to read.
1. Combat in BDO heavily relies on position where you do your damage if you want to be effective. There are multiple types of damage you can do including when you have them in the air, laying on the ground or damage behind the target. Do to the multipliers you can be doing half the amount of damage if you are not hitting them from behind.
2. Body block is very effective you can't just walk through them, it would require the use of a skill to by pass their collision effectively making it more of a difficult task to be behind your opponent compared to EQ2. Characters also have a lot of movement as well that you have to account for as they will not simply let you get towards their back easily.
3. WASD is a lot more heavily used in BDO compared to EQ2 as the skills you use require WASD inputs to use on top of your own movement in combat.
4. You need to be able to look and aim your skills towards a persons direction nothing will automatically hit your target. Your skills as well have movement to them which you will need to keep in check what abilities you are using and what abilities your opponent has. Not timing your skill right at a good moment could get you killed if you are constantly out of position
5. Positioning with front, side and your back all matter in BDO, not only do you need to track them to hit them, but you need to make sure you track right so you can use your frontal guard effectively with skills that have it or your block. blocking will stop the damage but you have a meter so you need to be careful with your positioning and not over extend in a fight for it to come back. Though you have frontal guard on a skill if they get to your side or your back with their movement they can bypass the protection to deal dmg to you, do deal special damage based on their position on you if they are behind.
Based on these points positioning is a big part of BDO, depending on how a game is designed that is not something limited to tab and action can actually make it feel like a lot more of a fight akin to a fighting game. Tab may have a few skills with your aoe cones you don't know the range on until you get the feeling, but that is every skill in BDO combat. (debuffs exist in bdo as well as self buffs that are tied to your skills and you need to plan how to use them. They can give more dmg, more attack speed, reduce move speed, etc)
Love to see interesting theory crafting happening! I look forward to the development update livestreams to come in which the team can showcase updates for us on combat ^_^
Remember, you can always ask questions in the Q&A thread for clarification!
Wait there is a Q&A thread where is that I haven't seen that one or did you mean the weapon combat thread?
Here, have a look at an Archeage example, The first skill (Magic Circle) cast is very fast, it ends before GCD ends, the second skill (Meteor Strike) on the other hand, is the skill with the largest cast time in the game, you will be able to see that the GCD ends way before the cast ends.
There is 2 types of GCD, GCD that triggers on skill activation and GCD that trigger on the end of skill animation. Archeage as you can see is GCD that triggers on skill activation and is also static(all skills trigger the same amount of GCD unless the skill description explicitly states otherwise).
Cast bars are merely visual representation of an skill's animation duration.
Lineage 2 doesn't have GCD and you can clearly see cast bars over the head of your character but they blink in and out extremely fast due to how fast the skill animations can go(video example i gave in page 7).
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Pretty sure he means the Q&A thread(s) for the Dev Livestreams.
It occurs to me you are attempting to talk specifically about PvP here. EQ2 PvP is essentially a side project that the developers don't care about. The game is specifically not designed with it in mind, and they have no real intention of putting any focus on PvP.
Put another way, PvP in EQ2 is about like PvE in BDO - it's there, but no one cares about it and it gets essentially no developer time.
I said right from the start that I am not talking about tab target games as being better in PvP, because they are not. EQ2 PvP is shit, which is why it is contained to literally one server.
As to the rest of your post, I didn't see a question (usually denoted with a question mark). Just a whole list of points, most of which are either irrelevant, or actually factually incorrect.
So, did you have a question, or are you just going back to assuming what you think is correct?
It occurs to me you are attempting to talk specifically about PvP here. EQ2 PvP is essentially a side project that the developers don't care about. The game is specifically not designed with it in mind, and they have no real intention of putting any focus on PvP.
Put another way, PvP in EQ2 is about like PvE in BDO - it's there, but no one cares about it and it gets essentially no developer time.
I said right from the start that I am not talking about tab target games as being better in PvP, because they are not. EQ2 PvP is shit, which is why it is contained to literally one server.
As to the rest of your post, I didn't see a question (usually denoted with a question mark). Just a whole list of points, most of which are either irrelevant, or actually factually incorrect.
So, did you have a question, or are you just going back to assuming what you think is correct?
Then please explain what is factually incorrect about the points on bdo combat with positioning
Then please explain what is factually incorrect about the points on bdo combat with positioning
1, positioning in action games affects the amount of damage you do. Positioning in tab target games affects whether you can use an ability or not. Your assertion that this makes positioning more important in an action game is just false.
2, Body blocking (character collision is what you are talking about here) is not an inherent factor of tab or action games. You can have either game with or without it.
However, your assertion that you can just walk though a target without issue in a tab target game is factually incorrect. Sure, you can walk though them, but you can't attack them while doing this, meaning your effectiveness will suffer. You still need to walk around a target to maintain that effectiveness.
3, WASD inputs with action combat abilities are - in my experience - mostly to determine things like which direction the ability will roll you in (and other such things). In every case I have seen, the movement from the abilities is greater than the input given.
As such, the use of WASD in an action game is less than the amount of movement an action character makes.
4, BDO has aim assist. Aiming near a target is not hard.
5, This seems rather PvP specific, and so is irrelevant.
1. Positioning is one of the most important aspects when it comes to to BDO you ignored multiple points I had brought up can you pleases answer all elements of my post in relation to that point.
If you are using a skill in BDO and you are not in a good position you are going to miss damage as people can move out of range. You need to anticipate and understand not just your position and movement but your target as well you are aiming for. As if you are out of range you will miss damage. It adds more layers to combat to be able to attack and predict someones movements if they are to come in range.
2. Since we are mainly talking about BDO vrs EQ2, can you walk through people in the game? (Just because you can't attack doesn't stop you from doing it. ie using a cc then walking through their body behind them while they can't move and easily hitting their back.)
3. We are talking about BDO WASD effects not just movement but skill in puts as well (ie S+F, S+RMB, etc) those inputs you need to use to use your ability.
4. Aim assist is fine, you still have to look in its direction and track. Saying it is not hard is pretty subjective though and not that simple in a fight as you need to know position and effective range of your skills. If you are in a PvP match that is more high end you will have a different opinion on that I'm sure.
5. You said BDO combat is slow, and EQ is faster. The combat in BDO is about PvP, the pve content doesn't require heavy knowledge of combat. If you are saying the game plays like trash, you don't need position and its slow, I am showing how it is not. It is why i asked you at the start if you did high-end pvp and how much. If you have not done that you haven't experienced the combat.
You said you played bdo, but there are a lot of points I had brought up in the original post you didn't address especially with positioning and damage. If you had played bdo on the basic level you should know about active guard, frontal guard and how important positioning is. As well as having aim assist (which all games should have so it doesn't make the learning curve too high of a level) you make it sound liek it is easy to attack. But if you are doing any kind of pvp with a good player its not that simple.
can you pleases answer all elements of my post in relation to that point.
No.
If it isn't relevant, I am not going to address it.
In relation to this specific discussion, we are comparing specific aspects of BDO with specific aspects of EQ2. If something is common to both, there is literally no point in discussing it, and so I will not.
In EQ2, if you are out of position, you will not be able to deal as much damage. As such, at the VERY LEAST, positioning is as important in EQ2 as it is in BDO. I could argue that it is more important in EQ2 due to requirements of content, but I'm going to hold on to that for now.
According to the above, there is no need to even discuss positioning any further.
Since we are mainly talking about BDO vrs EQ2, can you walk through people in the game? (Just because you can't attack doesn't stop you from doing it. ie using a cc then walking through their body behind them while they can't move and easily hitting their back.)
Can you? Yes.
Would you? No.
Most classes don't have access to any CC in EQ2. Of those that do, all but about 2 classes only have CC that will hold a target in place - that target will still be able to attack you if you get close enough. In fact, you are likely to break that CC by attempting this.
We are talking about BDO WASD effects not just movement but skill in puts as well (ie S+F, S+RMB, etc) those inputs you need to use to use your ability.
You may be, but I have no idea why you would be talking about that. It is not relevant to the discussion at all.
Since my argument is that there are more button presses in EQ2 than in BDO, you don't get to pick which button presses you count and which you do not count.
Aim assist is fine, you still have to look in its direction and track.
And in EQ2, your character still has to be facing the target as well (looking in it's direction). If it moves, you have to maintain looking in that direction (ie, track it). Again though, all of this is happening while you may have to be actually looking at something else (as in, you have to maintain your character looking at one mob that may be moving, while you have to look in another direction). Then there is also the question of movement - and in the case of EQ2 there are, as I have said before, times where your character and you are looking in different directions, and your character has to be moving in a third direction.
In my experience, aiming in EQ2 requires you to maintain your target in about a 45° arc. In BDO, that arc is more like 11.25° (this is range dependent). Sure, this makes it harder in BDO, but EQ2 makes up for this by having content that requires the above in relation to three different directions.
As such, I don't consider the need to aim in BDO to be much of something to brag about. Sure, it is in the game, but having it in the game has prevented them from having other things that EQ2 has - things that are without a doubt harder, even if it is only used on select content.
The best argument you have for BDO here is that aiming is always required, where as in EQ2 the need for that directional play is limited to specific encounters - or in other words, in this specific regard BDO is a little harder on base level content, but EQ2 is harder on top end content. Honestly, that is the best argument you have for aiming in BDO.
You said BDO combat is slow, and EQ is faster. The combat in BDO is about PvP, the pve content doesn't require heavy knowledge of combat. If you are saying the game plays like trash, you don't need position and its slow, I am showing how it is not. It is why i asked you at the start if you did high-end pvp and how much. If you have not done that you haven't experienced the combat.
It's funny you saying this, when in another thread you said that tab has an advantage over action in PvP.
It seems as if you have not drawn the dots here...
Sure, BDO combat in PvP is faster than EQ2 combat in PvP (all action is faster than all tab in PvP, in my experience). However, even top end PvP in BDO is not as fast (as in, either actions or decisions per minute) as top end PvE content in EQ2.
You keep giving these examples as if I never experienced it. As I have said, I have not given you any specifics on my time in BDO. You are simply making assumptions that I can't have played top end PvP in BDO because you can't believe that top end PvE in EQ2 could play faster, and so I must not know what I am talking about.
That is the assumption you are working on here.
Alter that assumption to one where you assume I do indeed know what I am talking about.
can you pleases answer all elements of my post in relation to that point.
No.
If it isn't relevant, I am not going to address it.
In relation to this specific discussion, we are comparing specific aspects of BDO with specific aspects of EQ2. If something is common to both, there is literally no point in discussing it, and so I will not.
In EQ2, if you are out of position, you will not be able to deal as much damage. As such, at the VERY LEAST, positioning is as important in EQ2 as it is in BDO. I could argue that it is more important in EQ2 due to requirements of content, but I'm going to hold on to that for now.
According to the above, there is no need to even discuss positioning any further.
Since we are mainly talking about BDO vrs EQ2, can you walk through people in the game? (Just because you can't attack doesn't stop you from doing it. ie using a cc then walking through their body behind them while they can't move and easily hitting their back.)
Can you? Yes.
Would you? No.
Most classes don't have access to any CC in EQ2. Of those that do, all but about 2 classes only have CC that will hold a target in place - that target will still be able to attack you if you get close enough. In fact, you are likely to break that CC by attempting this.
We are talking about BDO WASD effects not just movement but skill in puts as well (ie S+F, S+RMB, etc) those inputs you need to use to use your ability.
You may be, but I have no idea why you would be talking about that. It is not relevant to the discussion at all.
Since my argument is that there are more button presses in EQ2 than in BDO, you don't get to pick which button presses you count and which you do not count.
Aim assist is fine, you still have to look in its direction and track.
And in EQ2, your character still has to be facing the target as well (looking in it's direction). If it moves, you have to maintain looking in that direction (ie, track it). Again though, all of this is happening while you may have to be actually looking at something else (as in, you have to maintain your character looking at one mob that may be moving, while you have to look in another direction). Then there is also the question of movement - and in the case of EQ2 there are, as I have said before, times where your character and you are looking in different directions, and your character has to be moving in a third direction.
In my experience, aiming in EQ2 requires you to maintain your target in about a 45° arc. In BDO, that arc is more like 11.25° (this is range dependent). Sure, this makes it harder in BDO, but EQ2 makes up for this by having content that requires the above in relation to three different directions.
As such, I don't consider the need to aim in BDO to be much of something to brag about. Sure, it is in the game, but having it in the game has prevented them from having other things that EQ2 has - things that are without a doubt harder, even if it is only used on select content.
The best argument you have for BDO here is that aiming is always required, where as in EQ2 the need for that directional play is limited to specific encounters - or in other words, in this specific regard BDO is a little harder on base level content, but EQ2 is harder on top end content. Honestly, that is the best argument you have for aiming in BDO.
You said BDO combat is slow, and EQ is faster. The combat in BDO is about PvP, the pve content doesn't require heavy knowledge of combat. If you are saying the game plays like trash, you don't need position and its slow, I am showing how it is not. It is why i asked you at the start if you did high-end pvp and how much. If you have not done that you haven't experienced the combat.
It's funny you saying this, when in another thread you said that tab has an advantage over action in PvP.
It seems as if you have not drawn the dots here...
Sure, BDO combat in PvP is faster than EQ2 combat in PvP (all action is faster than all tab in PvP, in my experience). However, even top end PvP in BDO is not as fast (as in, either actions or decisions per minute) as top end PvE content in EQ2.
You keep giving these examples as if I never experienced it. As I have said, I have not given you any specifics on my time in BDO. You are simply making assumptions that I can't have played top end PvP in BDO because you can't believe that top end PvE in EQ2 could play faster, and so I must not know what I am talking about.
That is the assumption you are working on here.
Alter that assumption to one where you assume I do indeed know what I am talking about.
I'm just going make this short. You comment action combat don't have positioning then you refuse to acknowledge the aspects of bdo that relates to positioning and damage being done and avoided.
You aren't trying to have a proper discussion you are just here to try to push for tab by saying action combat doesn't have elements it clearly does, and then you clearly ignore anything that proves your statement wrong. So there isn't much point talking about all other elements as well since as anything that proves your statements other wise you ignore as if it doesn't exist in the game. Or the its pvp so it doesn't matter statements as if pvp isn't combat.
Again, show me where I said action combat does not have positioning.
We can just go over the beginning of the conversation again when you say positioning is more important with tab and bring up "some skills can only be caused behind them". If you view positioning in both games you wouldn't bring up a point about talking on positioning as if action combat completely lacked it, Which is also false as the pointed I stated. And the points you refused to comment on. Love how you are trying to divert the convo being picky with words lmao. Action has more positioning than tab, you didn't even play bdo enough to understand the combat, all you can do is a convo is try to say everything doesn't matter lmao.
Again, show me where I said action combat does not have positioning.
We can just go over the beginning of the conversation again when you say positioning is more important with tab and bring up "some skills can only be caused behind them". If you view positioning in both games you wouldn't bring up a point about talking on positioning as if action combat completely lacked it, Which is also false as the pointed I stated. And the points you refused to comment on. Love how you are trying to divert the convo being picky with words lmao. Action has more positioning than tab, you didn't even play bdo enough to understand the combat, all you can do is a convo is try to say everything doesn't matter lmao.
"Positioning is more important in tab" and "action combat don't have positioning" are not the same comment.
I absolutely said the first, but by no means said the second.
If you cant tell the difference between these two statements, I fear for your future.
Even if positioning is only slightly more important in a tab target game than in an action game, that still makes it more important. That assertion doesnt suggest that positioning isn't a thing in action game, nor indeed that it isnt an important thing in action.
All it means is that it is more important in tab. This shouldnt be a riddle or puzzle or anything, as it is literally the statement that I made.
You should try reading words next time without adding your own context or prejudice.
Again, show me where I said action combat does not have positioning.
We can just go over the beginning of the conversation again when you say positioning is more important with tab and bring up "some skills can only be caused behind them". If you view positioning in both games you wouldn't bring up a point about talking on positioning as if action combat completely lacked it, Which is also false as the pointed I stated. And the points you refused to comment on. Love how you are trying to divert the convo being picky with words lmao. Action has more positioning than tab, you didn't even play bdo enough to understand the combat, all you can do is a convo is try to say everything doesn't matter lmao.
"Positioning is more important in tab" and "action combat don't have positioning" are not the same comment.
I absolutely said the first, but by no means said the second.
If you cant tell the difference between these two statements, I fear for your future.
Even if positioning is only slightly more important in a tab target game than in an action game, that still makes it more important. That assertion doesnt suggest that positioning isn't a thing in action game, nor indeed that it isnt an important thing in action.
All it means is that it is more important in tab. This shouldnt be a riddle or puzzle or anything, as it is literally the statement that I made.
You should try reading words next time without adding your own context or prejudice.
It is far more important in BDO than in EQ2. Play BDO play pvp and understand how positioning works then come back to me. Granted you might not learn anything since you are trash at pvp but its cool.
It is far more important in BDO than in EQ2. BDO play pvp and understand how positioning works then come back to me.
Play top end PvE in EQ2 and get back to me.
Keep in mind here, I'm the one that has played both games for an extended amount of time, not you. You may have an idea of how important positioning is in BDO, but you have literally no idea how important it is in EQ2.
Since I have played both, I have an idea how important it is in each game.
It is far more important in BDO than in EQ2. BDO play pvp and understand how positioning works then come back to me.
Play top end PvE in EQ2 and get back to me.
Keep in mind here, I'm the one that has played both games for an extended amount of time, not you. You may have an idea of how important positioning is in BDO, but you have literally no idea how important it is in EQ2.
Since I have played both, I have an idea how important it is in each game.
PvE isn't' competitive, you can't handle pvp and that is exactly why you don't focus on it or understand it
Oh it absolutely is. However, it being competitive or not is of no consequence to this discussion.
As I have said, many times now, you have no idea how much time I have spent in BDO, nor what I did with that time.
All you know is that I like EQ2, and spent 4 years in Archeage, including 2 at the top end of PvP (you do not know what I did for the other two years in Archeage).
Fact is, you are just some kid that is talking big here and now because you know I cant go in game and hunt you down (or, put a cross server bounty on you is more my style - you aren't worth the time).
Oh it absolutely is. However, it being competitive or not is of no consequence to this discussion.
As I have said, many times now, you have no idea how much time I have spent in BDO, nor what I did with that time.
All you know is that I like EQ2, and spent 4 years in Archeage, including 2 at the top end of PvP (you do not know what I did for the other two years in Archeage).
Fact is, you are just some kid that is talking big here and now because you know I cant go in game and hunt you down (or, put a cross server bounty on you is more my style - you aren't worth the time).
PvE isn't competitive, you just look up a guide. PvP is competitive. Typical internet insult calling someone a kid, yet you can't hold up a decent conversation. I literarily can't take you seriously anymore you are so stuck in bias it is insane lmao.
I know you didn't spend enough time to understand BDO based on your post missing majors gameplay elements on bdo and choosing to ignore things mentioned, and all around and thinking targeting is easy lol. I can tell you haven't done real pvp on the game you are green.
I mean, this statement just says SOOO much about you. Honestly, it is all anyone needs to ever know about how you play games.
Someone needs to write those guilds, or record and post them. In order to be able to do this, they need to have completed the content.
As such, by the time a guide exists, the competition over the content is over.
Since your reasoning as to why PvE doesn't have any competition involves guides, all that says is that you have literally never been at the cutting edge of any game, ever. Even in games like WoW, where guides about literally everything exist - if the guide exists for something, then the competition over that content has finished.
The fact you don't even see that there is this competition should tell you how far behind you are.
I mean, this statement just says SOOO much about you. Honestly, it is all anyone needs to ever know about how you play games.
Someone needs to write those guilds, or record and post them. In order to be able to do this, they need to have completed the content.
As such, by the time a guide exists, the competition over the content is over.
Since your reasoning as to why PvE doesn't have any competition involves guides, all that says is that you have literally never been at the cutting edge of any game, ever. Even in games like WoW, where guides about literally everything exist - if the guide exists for something, then the competition over that content has finished.
The fact you don't even see that there is this competition should tell you how far behind you are.
I mean, this statement just says SOOO much about you. Honestly, it is all anyone needs to ever know about how you play games.
Someone needs to write those guilds, or record and post them. In order to be able to do this, they need to have completed the content.
As such, by the time a guide exists, the competition over the content is over.
Since your reasoning as to why PvE doesn't have any competition involves guides, all that says is that you have literally never been at the cutting edge of any game, ever. Even in games like WoW, where guides about literally everything exist - if the guide exists for something, then the competition over that content has finished.
The fact you don't even see that there is this competition should tell you how far behind you are.
PvE isn't competitive.
I think Blizzard has tournaments for dungeon clears with a fat cash prize at the end just like PvP arenas.
Comments
And they have people that worked on planetside as well so that means it will be great for shooter elements by that logic. Like developers have not work on multiple games between eq and AoC. Nice assumption there by the way lmao, i don't see EQ on their inspirations for combat ;o.
Fact is i put arguments out there but you are so bias you can't see any common ground you, there is no reasoning with you as you skew everything to your bias on tab target. Else you wouldn't make statements on speed vrs BDO as you haven't done real pvp on the game. Me on the other hand have been open to you point out things but you are so far up your own ass that rather than having a actual conversion and being honest about videos. You try to say everything is shit, and there is no videos out there because it is not the content you do which makes no sense isn't the top 1% is not the NORMAL experience of a player.
The videos are the videos that is what is out there, if it doesn't exist that is a shame for you. I'm not going to take ignore on videos online because its not what you view is competent. But if you want to sit down, stop talking shit and have an actual discussion im up for you point out in the video the things they did wrong and how they could have done certain actions faster. If the only point is he is clicking even though he is at the very least roughly matching the speed between que times you can keep that point but it doesn't change that much. Camera literarily you don't even need to control you just need a general los and your moves will hit them which makes it very easy if you are range.
Cut the bs, cut the slights, talk facts, cut the stretching of concepts and we can compare facts one to one between BDO and EQ2 in a honest discussion.
I mean, if Intrepid opt to add in MMOFPS elements, having people that have worked on Planetside (most of whom also worked on EQ2, as they are from the same developer/publisher) is a good thing.
A good number of the developers working at Intrepid literally came right from EQ2. I dont have an exact number, but I personally know of three that did - and this is from back when Intrepid only had 25 or so employees.
Keep in mind, just because you say EQ2 is dead, that doesnt mean it is. Even now, it is still getting expansions. Expansions require developers.
I mean, basically every ability the player used was wrong. Their positioning was wrong. The people they opted to attack were wrong. The gear they are using is wrong. The spec they have is wrong.
It would take less time to point out what they did right rather than what the my did wrong. The video isn't of someone trying to show how good they are.
While I dont have the context for the video, it would make perfect sense if it was someone trying to highlight how overpowered the class was in PvP, by doing everything "wrong" and still getting some kills.
The issue here though isnt with the video, it is with you thinking the video means anything. It's with you thinking you can see how a game plays by looking at a video. Not about to cut the 'slights' as you say, because I have always and will always point out the negative aspects of games and game genres. I point out negative aspects of EQ2 at times, but only to people that understand them.
As to the rest, I have been the one talking facts here. You are the one saying things like it being your opinion that a cast bar and GCD is the same thing.
Literally all I have been doing this whole thread is talking facts (and having a dig at action games). You are the one unable to a cept facts when they do not align with your assumption of how different games work (or, as you would say, head cannon).
Now, if you want to talk facts, ee can. Thing is, this is how it will have to go;
You ask me a question, then I answer it. From there, you assume the answer I gave you is factually correct if it related to general aspects of MMO's or to EQ2 at all.
The singular reason you can safely assume any answer I give to be factually correct is simple. As the most prolific poster on these forums (for better or worse) there are a lot of people that will always jump at the chance to prove me wrong. As such, if someone I say is wrong, or is not in line with their experience, they will point this out.
An example of this was in either this or the other thread recently. In explaining the GCD in EQ2, someone said that it wasnt how their understanding of a GCD worked. Since this person was someone that I have had discussions before, and have an amount of respect for, I was happy to reply by explaining the difference between the GCD in EQ2 (which isnt actually called a GCD, but that is unimportant), and the GCD in WoW.
So, if you have questions for me, ask. Just assume the answer I give is correct.
Then lets break it down at what speed are you waiting for skills, are you able to use skills during a skill being used during the cast time. What is the normal average cast time of skills in general.
When I say slights I'm overly hostile takes be it with a game or with the person. You slighting BDO while not doing pvp which is the main content for the pvp will not give you a better understanding of the combat system. There is a lot to learn with it and it takes a good amount of time to master the combat with a lot of things in the game that there is no tutorial for you just have to figure it out.
The issue is I present a video and you won't go into detail about what goes on in it. So if there is more skils that can be used that a person might not see you can easily explain it. Example would be like SWTOR you have your cooldown but you have skills you can use off cool down. But I can't use a skill in the middle of a cast time else it would interrupt it. So if there is more you see we have a video and you can explain some points on it rather then saying every single video on youtube is trash that isn't really the best argument. Also you shouldn't consider the 1% as what people normally do, that isn't logical, it needs to be from a more fair point as games aren't designed for the 1% (well besides diablo immortal).
I'm not going to jump in and prove you wrong on something EQ related if you are point it out, using the video as a base. Example being saying why they could be using more skills than they are, why would I argue you can't do something like that. But ill be aware of it. In this conversation with speed button press is just the first layer but not the last step in determining speed of gameplay.
Be it you agree with me or not on how I view GCD, I don't really feel there is much point arguing on that point. I can say we just won't agree on that part as I view it as a more dynamic system as long as you constantly have cast times involved on all skills. It worked like that in CoH and I still view that as GCD, but to reduce the arguing I will just say cast time. Both slow down combat and make it feel more choppy and less dynamic..
Some abilities are able to be used while you are casting another ability.
The average cast time is very class dependent. A DPS spell caster has a base average spell cast time of perhaps 3 seconds, and a melee DPS class has an average of perhaps 0.7 seconds (most abilities being 0.5, with a few big hitters increasing the average time).
However, keep in mind, these are the base averages. Based on spec and gear, it is easy for a player to cut these times in half - if the player is able to manage it.
I never said I didn't PvP.
All I have said about PvP in BDO is that generally speaking, if it is 1v1 PvP, my opponent would run if they were able to do so. Actually, the issue is that with the amount of time it would take to explain to you what is wrong with that video, it would literally take less of your time (let alone my time) for you to log in to EQ2, create a character, play it up to level 120, assign the 500 or so points across 12 or so different trees to create your spec, and then see the combat for yourself.
I said very early on that there is no point in looking at videos of EQ2 in order to attempt to gain an understanding of the games combat. This stands true, despite you ignoring that statement.
I am not talking about the 1%.
While it is up for debate if I would fall in to the 1% in EQ2 (definitely the 5%), I have spent 20 years discussing MMO's from a design and development perspective. This requires looking at the game from perspectives that are not your own. Due to having looked at games in this manner for so long, this is now my default means for looking at any MMO.
I rarely look at games from my own perspective, I look at them from the perspective of an average player within different in game communities (an average raider, and average casual player, an average crafter, an average PvP player, etc).
This depends.
Do you want to go about having opinions in place of facts? I mean, opinions absolutely have their place, don't get me wrong. However, they are not a substitute for actual fact.
If you are happy going about having opinions where you should know facts instead, then yeah, there is no point in discussing it. On the other hand, if you would rather know what you are talking about, then ask.
As an aside, people that value opinion over fact are the people behind some of the stupidest things happening in the world (including things like Pizzagate, flat earth, Covid denial, and even Brexit). In my mind, replacing fact with opinion is not something people should strive for - but it's up to you.
When i say waiting for skills I'm talking about as you are casting. So how often can you cast spells / use skills on average within a second? (If there are skills that can be used in the middle of caster like a rogue skill for example while the bar is still going how many of those exist as well?)
I'm still not sure what you meat by "at what speed do you wait for skills", but I can ignore that and answer this question.
It depends on your class and build. My DPS caster had perhaps 3 or 4 abilities that could be used while another spell was being cast, but they were mostly self buffs.
Some other classes have significantly more than that.
It is worth pointing out though, that even though there is often a high number of actions needed in a tab target game, that isn't the games actual focus - at least in relation to EQ2. A DPS caster class, for example, is more focused on using the right ability, rather than using many abilities. You will halve your performance if you just go for most casts per minute or what ever. If you want to be at the top of your game, you need to consider each spell you cast, and occasionally be ready to cancel a spell mid cast based on what is happening.
However, other classes are about other things - melee DPS is about rhythm, as I have explained. If you can not maintain the correct rhythm (keeping in mind positioning and skill selection), you will again be at half your effectiveness - or worse.
Healers though, they seem to be able the same in both, generally speaking.
Another thing to keep in mind, if you are wanting to get an idea about the pace of combat in a tab target game, is that positioning is key. While aiming may be important in an action game, positioning is far more important in a tab target game than it is in any action game I have played.
Some classes, for example, have abilities that can only be used in front of the target, behind the target or beside the target. This means you are having to constantly move around said target. Keep in mind, this is in a game genre where the vast majority of abilities do not move you at all - meaning that the player has to perform all of that movement on their own. The reason this makes positioning more important than in an action game is because they player has to actually take in to consideration when they are going to make the move around the target, rather than most action games that happen to have that movement action tied in to the abilities you would want to use anyway (developers do this on purpose, by the way).
Where many action games will have classes where a combo that you use will have one of the abilities cause your character to end up behind or beside the target due to the movement component of the ability, a similar combo in a tab target game would require the player to make that move, usually while also using some specific abilities.
Even in the case of a DPS caster, positioning is important. My class, as an example, had a massive damage spell that only had a range of 5 meters (35 was standard). However, it also had a cone shaped AoE, and would deal damage to up to three targets in that area (which was never actually shown to players, you just had to know the area it affected). Since caster DPS needed to spend as much time at range as possible, but since we also needed to use this ability in order to be at full effectiveness, we needed to work out how to factor in a 30 meter trip in to the target, a 30 meter trip back away from the target, as well as working in any of the self buffs or mob debuffs we wanted active while we cast this massive damage spell (that was usually the biggest single hits in the entire raid - and we were getting up to three hits per cast).
Basically, what I am saying here is that focusing on ability use in combat is only telling half the story. Since all movement in a tab target game needs to be done by the player independent of abilities (mostly), and since positioning is of utmost importance, there is a LOT of movement in combat. There is more character movement (ie, using WASD) in EQ2 than in any action game I have played - even if there appears to be more movement in most action games due to most (or indeed all) abilities having a movement component to them.
Remember, you can always ask questions in the Q&A thread for clarification!
I was planning to get more into the detail of ability use later as we would be jumping all over the place if we don't focus on one element at time time do tot he complexity of rpg elements in mmorpgs.
--Positioning --
Since we are talking about EQ2 vrs BDO I can not agree that eq2 requires nearly as much position as bdo it is completely night and day. That being said I'm aware of position in tab target mmos where certain skills only being able to be used from certain positions. You move around your target or through your target, as well as use your aoes as needed (though aoes that do not need a target is akin to action combat. Which shows the direction of combat in mmorpgs has been leading to since awhile whenever that kind of skill is added). I will do it in point form so its easier to read.
1. Combat in BDO heavily relies on position where you do your damage if you want to be effective. There are multiple types of damage you can do including when you have them in the air, laying on the ground or damage behind the target. Do to the multipliers you can be doing half the amount of damage if you are not hitting them from behind.
2. Body block is very effective you can't just walk through them, it would require the use of a skill to by pass their collision effectively making it more of a difficult task to be behind your opponent compared to EQ2. Characters also have a lot of movement as well that you have to account for as they will not simply let you get towards their back easily.
3. WASD is a lot more heavily used in BDO compared to EQ2 as the skills you use require WASD inputs to use on top of your own movement in combat.
4. You need to be able to look and aim your skills towards a persons direction nothing will automatically hit your target. Your skills as well have movement to them which you will need to keep in check what abilities you are using and what abilities your opponent has. Not timing your skill right at a good moment could get you killed if you are constantly out of position
5. Positioning with front, side and your back all matter in BDO, not only do you need to track them to hit them, but you need to make sure you track right so you can use your frontal guard effectively with skills that have it or your block. blocking will stop the damage but you have a meter so you need to be careful with your positioning and not over extend in a fight for it to come back. Though you have frontal guard on a skill if they get to your side or your back with their movement they can bypass the protection to deal dmg to you, do deal special damage based on their position on you if they are behind.
Based on these points positioning is a big part of BDO, depending on how a game is designed that is not something limited to tab and action can actually make it feel like a lot more of a fight akin to a fighting game. Tab may have a few skills with your aoe cones you don't know the range on until you get the feeling, but that is every skill in BDO combat. (debuffs exist in bdo as well as self buffs that are tied to your skills and you need to plan how to use them. They can give more dmg, more attack speed, reduce move speed, etc)
Wait there is a Q&A thread where is that I haven't seen that one or did you mean the weapon combat thread?
Here, have a look at an Archeage example, The first skill (Magic Circle) cast is very fast, it ends before GCD ends, the second skill (Meteor Strike) on the other hand, is the skill with the largest cast time in the game, you will be able to see that the GCD ends way before the cast ends.
There is 2 types of GCD, GCD that triggers on skill activation and GCD that trigger on the end of skill animation. Archeage as you can see is GCD that triggers on skill activation and is also static(all skills trigger the same amount of GCD unless the skill description explicitly states otherwise).
Cast bars are merely visual representation of an skill's animation duration.
Lineage 2 doesn't have GCD and you can clearly see cast bars over the head of your character but they blink in and out extremely fast due to how fast the skill animations can go(video example i gave in page 7).
Aren't we all sinners?
It occurs to me you are attempting to talk specifically about PvP here. EQ2 PvP is essentially a side project that the developers don't care about. The game is specifically not designed with it in mind, and they have no real intention of putting any focus on PvP.
Put another way, PvP in EQ2 is about like PvE in BDO - it's there, but no one cares about it and it gets essentially no developer time.
I said right from the start that I am not talking about tab target games as being better in PvP, because they are not. EQ2 PvP is shit, which is why it is contained to literally one server.
As to the rest of your post, I didn't see a question (usually denoted with a question mark). Just a whole list of points, most of which are either irrelevant, or actually factually incorrect.
So, did you have a question, or are you just going back to assuming what you think is correct?
Then please explain what is factually incorrect about the points on bdo combat with positioning
2, Body blocking (character collision is what you are talking about here) is not an inherent factor of tab or action games. You can have either game with or without it.
However, your assertion that you can just walk though a target without issue in a tab target game is factually incorrect. Sure, you can walk though them, but you can't attack them while doing this, meaning your effectiveness will suffer. You still need to walk around a target to maintain that effectiveness.
3, WASD inputs with action combat abilities are - in my experience - mostly to determine things like which direction the ability will roll you in (and other such things). In every case I have seen, the movement from the abilities is greater than the input given.
As such, the use of WASD in an action game is less than the amount of movement an action character makes.
4, BDO has aim assist. Aiming near a target is not hard.
5, This seems rather PvP specific, and so is irrelevant.
1. Positioning is one of the most important aspects when it comes to to BDO you ignored multiple points I had brought up can you pleases answer all elements of my post in relation to that point.
If you are using a skill in BDO and you are not in a good position you are going to miss damage as people can move out of range. You need to anticipate and understand not just your position and movement but your target as well you are aiming for. As if you are out of range you will miss damage. It adds more layers to combat to be able to attack and predict someones movements if they are to come in range.
2. Since we are mainly talking about BDO vrs EQ2, can you walk through people in the game? (Just because you can't attack doesn't stop you from doing it. ie using a cc then walking through their body behind them while they can't move and easily hitting their back.)
3. We are talking about BDO WASD effects not just movement but skill in puts as well (ie S+F, S+RMB, etc) those inputs you need to use to use your ability.
4. Aim assist is fine, you still have to look in its direction and track. Saying it is not hard is pretty subjective though and not that simple in a fight as you need to know position and effective range of your skills. If you are in a PvP match that is more high end you will have a different opinion on that I'm sure.
5. You said BDO combat is slow, and EQ is faster. The combat in BDO is about PvP, the pve content doesn't require heavy knowledge of combat. If you are saying the game plays like trash, you don't need position and its slow, I am showing how it is not. It is why i asked you at the start if you did high-end pvp and how much. If you have not done that you haven't experienced the combat.
You said you played bdo, but there are a lot of points I had brought up in the original post you didn't address especially with positioning and damage. If you had played bdo on the basic level you should know about active guard, frontal guard and how important positioning is. As well as having aim assist (which all games should have so it doesn't make the learning curve too high of a level) you make it sound liek it is easy to attack. But if you are doing any kind of pvp with a good player its not that simple.
If it isn't relevant, I am not going to address it.
In relation to this specific discussion, we are comparing specific aspects of BDO with specific aspects of EQ2. If something is common to both, there is literally no point in discussing it, and so I will not.
In EQ2, if you are out of position, you will not be able to deal as much damage. As such, at the VERY LEAST, positioning is as important in EQ2 as it is in BDO. I could argue that it is more important in EQ2 due to requirements of content, but I'm going to hold on to that for now.
According to the above, there is no need to even discuss positioning any further.
Can you? Yes.
Would you? No.
Most classes don't have access to any CC in EQ2. Of those that do, all but about 2 classes only have CC that will hold a target in place - that target will still be able to attack you if you get close enough. In fact, you are likely to break that CC by attempting this.
You may be, but I have no idea why you would be talking about that. It is not relevant to the discussion at all.
Since my argument is that there are more button presses in EQ2 than in BDO, you don't get to pick which button presses you count and which you do not count. And in EQ2, your character still has to be facing the target as well (looking in it's direction). If it moves, you have to maintain looking in that direction (ie, track it). Again though, all of this is happening while you may have to be actually looking at something else (as in, you have to maintain your character looking at one mob that may be moving, while you have to look in another direction). Then there is also the question of movement - and in the case of EQ2 there are, as I have said before, times where your character and you are looking in different directions, and your character has to be moving in a third direction.
In my experience, aiming in EQ2 requires you to maintain your target in about a 45° arc. In BDO, that arc is more like 11.25° (this is range dependent). Sure, this makes it harder in BDO, but EQ2 makes up for this by having content that requires the above in relation to three different directions.
As such, I don't consider the need to aim in BDO to be much of something to brag about. Sure, it is in the game, but having it in the game has prevented them from having other things that EQ2 has - things that are without a doubt harder, even if it is only used on select content.
The best argument you have for BDO here is that aiming is always required, where as in EQ2 the need for that directional play is limited to specific encounters - or in other words, in this specific regard BDO is a little harder on base level content, but EQ2 is harder on top end content. Honestly, that is the best argument you have for aiming in BDO. It's funny you saying this, when in another thread you said that tab has an advantage over action in PvP.
It seems as if you have not drawn the dots here...
Sure, BDO combat in PvP is faster than EQ2 combat in PvP (all action is faster than all tab in PvP, in my experience). However, even top end PvP in BDO is not as fast (as in, either actions or decisions per minute) as top end PvE content in EQ2.
You keep giving these examples as if I never experienced it. As I have said, I have not given you any specifics on my time in BDO. You are simply making assumptions that I can't have played top end PvP in BDO because you can't believe that top end PvE in EQ2 could play faster, and so I must not know what I am talking about.
That is the assumption you are working on here.
Alter that assumption to one where you assume I do indeed know what I am talking about.
I'm just going make this short. You comment action combat don't have positioning then you refuse to acknowledge the aspects of bdo that relates to positioning and damage being done and avoided.
You aren't trying to have a proper discussion you are just here to try to push for tab by saying action combat doesn't have elements it clearly does, and then you clearly ignore anything that proves your statement wrong. So there isn't much point talking about all other elements as well since as anything that proves your statements other wise you ignore as if it doesn't exist in the game. Or the its pvp so it doesn't matter statements as if pvp isn't combat.
Oh wait, you can't, because I didn't. I am, you are just not listening.
Again, show me where I said action combat does not have positioning.
We can just go over the beginning of the conversation again when you say positioning is more important with tab and bring up "some skills can only be caused behind them". If you view positioning in both games you wouldn't bring up a point about talking on positioning as if action combat completely lacked it, Which is also false as the pointed I stated. And the points you refused to comment on. Love how you are trying to divert the convo being picky with words lmao. Action has more positioning than tab, you didn't even play bdo enough to understand the combat, all you can do is a convo is try to say everything doesn't matter lmao.
"Positioning is more important in tab" and "action combat don't have positioning" are not the same comment.
I absolutely said the first, but by no means said the second.
If you cant tell the difference between these two statements, I fear for your future.
Even if positioning is only slightly more important in a tab target game than in an action game, that still makes it more important. That assertion doesnt suggest that positioning isn't a thing in action game, nor indeed that it isnt an important thing in action.
All it means is that it is more important in tab. This shouldnt be a riddle or puzzle or anything, as it is literally the statement that I made.
You should try reading words next time without adding your own context or prejudice.
It is far more important in BDO than in EQ2. Play BDO play pvp and understand how positioning works then come back to me. Granted you might not learn anything since you are trash at pvp but its cool.
Keep in mind here, I'm the one that has played both games for an extended amount of time, not you. You may have an idea of how important positioning is in BDO, but you have literally no idea how important it is in EQ2.
Since I have played both, I have an idea how important it is in each game.
PvE isn't' competitive, you can't handle pvp and that is exactly why you don't focus on it or understand it
As I have said, many times now, you have no idea how much time I have spent in BDO, nor what I did with that time.
All you know is that I like EQ2, and spent 4 years in Archeage, including 2 at the top end of PvP (you do not know what I did for the other two years in Archeage).
Fact is, you are just some kid that is talking big here and now because you know I cant go in game and hunt you down (or, put a cross server bounty on you is more my style - you aren't worth the time).
PvE isn't competitive, you just look up a guide. PvP is competitive. Typical internet insult calling someone a kid, yet you can't hold up a decent conversation. I literarily can't take you seriously anymore you are so stuck in bias it is insane lmao.
I know you didn't spend enough time to understand BDO based on your post missing majors gameplay elements on bdo and choosing to ignore things mentioned, and all around and thinking targeting is easy lol. I can tell you haven't done real pvp on the game you are green.
I mean, this statement just says SOOO much about you. Honestly, it is all anyone needs to ever know about how you play games.
Someone needs to write those guilds, or record and post them. In order to be able to do this, they need to have completed the content.
As such, by the time a guide exists, the competition over the content is over.
Since your reasoning as to why PvE doesn't have any competition involves guides, all that says is that you have literally never been at the cutting edge of any game, ever. Even in games like WoW, where guides about literally everything exist - if the guide exists for something, then the competition over that content has finished.
The fact you don't even see that there is this competition should tell you how far behind you are.
PvE isn't competitive.
I think Blizzard has tournaments for dungeon clears with a fat cash prize at the end just like PvP arenas.