@Caeryl I understood what you said. I just said that I do not feel big difference between farm gold buy player, farm honor buy npc from the perspective of buying player.
We have unlimited supply of gold, unlimited supply of 'iron' what can use to prepare gear. The only difference is that the player transform the material to gear or an NPC do that.
Of course from crafter point of view, the difference is huge. But still exist that a rare gear created from something what can be farmed.
You’re misunderstanding the fundamental difference in which players determine how widespread a particular piece of high-tier gear is, vs the game setting it concretely as unlimited.
It is very different using tokens earned from casual gameplay than it is to commission a player who has completed a multitude of quests, or purchased from a high end raider who looted it, to get a rare recipe.
I find an economy defined by NPC prices to be boring at best. It’s certainly negative for players who want to earn funds off their crafting, and for the very reason high tier gear shouldn’t be made available in unlimited quantities by the game in any capacity.
Edit: If you don’t care about the health of player economies then we have a baseline disagreement here. I’m in favor of player controlled systems, not game controlled systems except for the most basic supplies.
@Caeryl We do not have any disagreement, because I do not take my vote for any either solution. I just reacted to your sentence where you said you do not want to be able to get high level gear by farming something.
If you are able to buy highend gear from crafter for money, technically, you farmed the gear.
I have never played with an MMO where you are able to buy highend gear for gold and I find it OK to play with it for months. So I tried to raise critical points in my original comment. (As I read it again, it is a little bit confusing). I care about health of the economy, but we have very limited information regarding what they plan. I saw in other games when a good looking thing caused big mess. If I do not see good examples but I see where can it be wrong, it crates fear in me about the game.
@Caeryl We do not have any disagreement, because I do not take my vote for any either solution. I just reacted to your sentence where you said you do not want to be able to get high level gear by farming something.
If you are able to buy highend gear from crafter for money, technically, you farmed the gear.
I have never played with an MMO where you are able to buy highend gear for gold and I find it OK to play with it for months. So I tried to raise critical points in my original comment. (As I read it again, it is a little bit confusing). I care about health of the economy, but we have very limited information regarding what they plan. I saw in other games when a good looking thing caused big mess. If I do not see good examples but I see where can it be wrong, it crates fear in me about the game.
Let me clarify then. End game gear should not be created within the game simply by farming a currency. It should either be purposefully created by a player who has obtained a rare recipe and has chosen to distribute it, or it should be a drop obtained by a raider who may chose to sell it.
It creates an imbalance in desirability and in some cases disrupt balance in a PvP environment when everyone can obtain something “rare” and powerful through a NPC purchase.
As an example, in ESO, there are 2 piece item sets that have a lot of power. Typically the DLC dungeon sets are more difficult to obtain due to being obtained from veteran modes of dungeons, so when one was a powerful healing tool, that was ok because it was used primarily by the people who farmed that PvE content within that PvE content.
Then it got released for a weekend in a vendor that uses PvP currency, and next thing you know that potent heal tool was on every other player in the PvP zone, and the next patch it was nerfed into uselessness for larger raid groups in PvE.
@Caeryl I understood what you said. I just said that I do not feel big difference between 'farm gold'-'buy player', 'farm honor'-'buy npc' from the perspective of buying player.
You shouldn't look at things from the perspective of a player.
Players don't know shit (no offense).
Look at it from a developer perspective.
If you have high end equipment in your game, you want the ability to make it scarce.
If you have high end equipment in your game, you want people to have to play through the content you have spent the most time on in order to get it.
If - as a developer - you put your best items up for sale on an NPC for gold (even if it is a lot of gold), then the only content you need to make is content for players to use to farm gold. There is no point putting in content that makes use of that gear - unless that content then drops better gear which would then mean that the gear on the NPC wasn't the best gear negating the whole situation.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
“Dailies” in the way that most people recognize, as in “bonus rewards for doing a menial task for the first time per day”, cannot possibly be built into standard gameplay.
The bonus comes out of nowhere, causing the first time you do it to be the single most valuable. If you have a daily of “craft three pieces of armor” and are rewarded with an 10 gold while crafting a piece of armor usually grants zero gold without player interaction, you just encourage people to spam alts for quick money.
Dailies are absolutely unnecessary unless the baseline reward system is poorly designed, which should cause the reward system to be redesigned and not earn a bandaid solution that rewards people with more alts than dedication to game content.
Like someone else said earlier “Anything you can do in ten minutes, cannot be significantly meaningful” nor should it be rewarded heavily with bursts of money or exp, much less real $ currencies.
Doesn't matter what most people recognize. What matters is what is actually true. And, what matters in this case is how the Ashes devs implement dailies.
The Dailies in Apoc are not something that we must do as the first time per day. It might take several matches to complete an Apoc Daily, should a player choose to pursue that Daily.
Dailies are bonus rewards for doing a menial task. "First time per day" is not an inherent component.
I'm not sure what you mean by, "bonus comes out of nowhere". In Wizard101, players have to go to the quest giver who hands out Dailies. The reward for the first 2/5 days of the week is gold. The 3rd day is PVP arena tickets. The 4th day is crowns (embers). The 5th day is an item. The 3rd week, the 2nd day is a mystery item). At the end of the 3rd week (15 days), that reward pattern resets.
My main character is on the 3rd day of the 2nd week (Day 8). My alt character is on the 4th day of the 1st week (Day 4). And they will stay there until they complete a Daily.
Sure, they will immediately receive their reward without me having to return to the quest giver. But, I don't understand why that would be problematic.
In Apoc, we can choose to do the Dailies or ignore them. And we receive the rewards (2000 xp) after we complete the match.
Which MMORPG grants 10 gold for crafting three pieces of armor where crafting armor usually grants none without player interaction?? And why must that be the example Ashes is likely to follow??
Easy enough to have the Dailies reward embers or emotes or hairstyles or monster coin tokens, similar to Apoc rewards, instead of gold if there is a concern about negatively affecting the economy.
Doesn't really matter whether Dailies are unnecessary. What matters is what the devs want in their game design. I'd need to see data that supports the claim that Dailies "reward people with more alts than dedication to game content."
I love alts, but I am rarely enticed to complete Dailies on all of my alts. That decision really is more about whether a specific Daily is something I like to do or something that specific characters are interested. It's rarely about the rewards. Typically the rewards are also trivial - but small bonuses can be better than nothing if the task isn't too laborious.
Someone did say that anything you can do in ten minutes cannot be meaningful, but that is not true in Ashes because everything we do adds to Node progression - so if numerous people complete a Daily to travel to xx region and kill three mobs, that will significantly affect the progression of that Node.
Same is true for Dailies focused on Religious or Social progression. Because in Ashes, it's not just about how completed tasks affects the individual player character, but also about how the completed tasks impact the world dynamics.
]You shouldn't look at things from the perspective of a player.
If - as a developer - you put your best items up for sale on an NPC for gold (even if it is a lot of gold), then the only content you need to make is content for players to use to farm gold. There is no point putting in content that makes use of that gear - unless that content then drops better gear which would then mean that the gear on the NPC wasn't the best gear negating the whole situation.
First of all, I raised up another points but it seems nobody understood it. (I also see it was a little bit messy.)
1. In the WoW, you were not able to buy the best PvP gear from honorfarming unless you reach certain level in PvP rank. So you had to prove some skill level before you were able to get the best gear. (So pure farm is not enough)
2. In case of PvE gear, you had to do the hardest PvE content to get the best gear. It was souldbound. (Can't farm at all.)
3. In a world where a crafter can have the recepie for the best gear the question to get the gear is only the amount of gold and some knowledge who is the person who is able to create that gear. (purely farm gold)
The first 2 mechanics can't ruin the economics because they are outside from it.
The 3rd option is the most complicated. If production is depend on raw material in this case there will be extreme amount of best gear on the market, because once the crafter get the recepie, can produce it limitlessly. (Nobody want it)
So we have to limit it somehow.
One solution is that you need special material to craft the gear. From that point the question is how can you obtain that special material? If you receive it from raid bosses, at the beginning it will be limited, for the person who defeat the raid bosses. After they have the needed amount they will sell it. From that point the there will be more and more special material on the market so the best gear will be cheaper and cheaper. So for healthy economy you have to do something to handle the situation. (I do not want to design a full economy systems so I stop here.)
As you can see, once the receipt is available the situation become more and more near to the situation where you can buy the best gear for gold from NPC for lot of gold.
I would like to emphasize that I do not want to have the situation that you can buy best gear from an NPC for tradeable currency (usually it is gold).
There is no point putting in content that makes use of that gear - unless that content then drops better gear which would then mean that the gear on the NPC wasn't the best gear negating the whole situation."
Maybe I am the exception, but for me the gear is the tool to beat the hardest content, not the goal. So I do not do the PvE content to get gear, I get the gear to be able to beat the content.
“Dailies” in the way that most people recognize, as in “bonus rewards for doing a menial task for the first time per day”, cannot possibly be built into standard gameplay.
The bonus comes out of nowhere, causing the first time you do it to be the single most valuable. If you have a daily of “craft three pieces of armor” and are rewarded with an 10 gold while crafting a piece of armor usually grants zero gold without player interaction, you just encourage people to spam alts for quick money.
Dailies are absolutely unnecessary unless the baseline reward system is poorly designed, which should cause the reward system to be redesigned and not earn a bandaid solution that rewards people with more alts than dedication to game content.
Like someone else said earlier “Anything you can do in ten minutes, cannot be significantly meaningful” nor should it be rewarded heavily with bursts of money or exp, much less real $ currencies.
.
Dailies are bonus rewards for doing a menial task. "First time per day" is not an inherent component.
I'm not sure what you mean by, "bonus comes out of nowhere". In Wizard101, players have to go to the quest giver who hands out Dailies. The reward for the first 2/5 days of the week is gold. The 3rd day is PVP arena tickets. The 4th day is crowns (embers). The 5th day is an item. The 3rd week, the 2nd day is a mystery item). At the end of the 3rd week (15 days), that reward pattern resets.
My main character is on the 3rd day of the 2nd week (Day 8). My alt character is on the 4th day of the 1st week (Day 4). And they will stay there until they complete a Daily.
Sure, they will immediately receive their reward without me having to return to the quest giver. But, I don't understand why that would be problematic.
In Apoc, we can choose to do the Dailies or ignore them. And we receive the rewards (2000 xp) after we complete the match.
This paragraph here highlights exactly WHY I’m against dailies in a game that is supposed to be complex and rewarding.
There shouldn’t HAVE to be dailies if the reward systems are designed well.
Dailies are a cheap gimmick to shroud a poor reward system on shallow gameplay. And yes, I can be honest here, APOC is not some complex gaming masterpiece. It’s here to test systems and dailies are the easy method to push players into alternate activities where other meaningful rewards can’t be provided.
This entire thread is thankfully a moot point since it’s been stated multiple times we won’t be getting dailies in the MMO. It’s not near so hard as some may claim to have a reward system that doesn’t rely on exploiting the Fear of Missing Out.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Q: "Will there be RNG as dailies and stuff like that?"
A: "I don't think those will be RNG based. Those will be probably- you will see the reward structure for those types of quests. Will they be dailies? No they won't be in the sense of what we've experienced dailies in the past where you feel so obligated to log in and like you'll miss these things. It's more gonna be focused around like how the world is changing and how the changes in the world relate to your opportunities; and then, you know if... your location's gonna matter because fast travel is not a thing. Where you're located at is going to determine your you know the risk versus reward opportunities that are present; and then depending on the time that those occur."
Q: "Will there be RNG as dailies and stuff like that?"
A: "I don't think those will be RNG based. Those will be probably- you will see the reward structure for those types of quests. Will they be dailies? No they won't be in the sense of what we've experienced dailies in the past where you feel so obligated to log in and like you'll miss these things. It's more gonna be focused around like how the world is changing and how the changes in the world relate to your opportunities; and then, you know if... your location's gonna matter because fast travel is not a thing. Where you're located at is going to determine your you know the risk versus reward opportunities that are present; and then depending on the time that those occur."
In summary, “No there’s not typical dailies everyone will be getting, and we’re not going to design them to be so rewarding they become mandatory, but there will be quests available every day because the world is in constant flux and opportunities are always changing.”
That’s the kind of minor questing and reward structuring that I’m in favor of. Quests that make sense with rewards that make sense for the quests you choose to do.
1. In the WoW, you were not able to buy the best PvP gear from honorfarming unless you reach certain level in PvP rank. So you had to prove some skill level before you were able to get the best gear. (So pure farm is not enough)
2. In case of PvE gear, you had to do the hardest PvE content to get the best gear. It was souldbound. (Can't farm at all.)
3. In a world where a crafter can have the recepie for the best gear the question to get the gear is only the amount of gold and some knowledge who is the person who is able to create that gear. (purely farm gold)
The first 2 mechanics can't ruin the economics because they are outside from it.
The 3rd option is the most complicated. If production is depend on raw material in this case there will be extreme amount of best gear on the market, because once the crafter get the recepie, can produce it limitlessly. (Nobody want it)
So we have to limit it somehow.
One solution is that you need special material to craft the gear. From that point the question is how can you obtain that special material? If you receive it from raid bosses, at the beginning it will be limited, for the person who defeat the raid bosses. After they have the needed amount they will sell it. From that point the there will be more and more special material on the market so the best gear will be cheaper and cheaper. So for healthy economy you have to do something to handle the situation. (I do not want to design a full economy systems so I stop here.)
As you can see, once the receipt is available the situation become more and more near to the situation where you can buy the best gear for gold from NPC for lot of gold.
I would like to emphasize that I do not want to have the situation that you can buy best gear from an NPC for tradeable currency (usually it is gold).
You were doing really well up until the point that I have bolded.
First of all, it is absolutely possible to have crafting based raid drops that are so valuable to the raid as a whole that they won't sell them. All you need to do is make it so that the item can be used to craft consumables that are better than anything else available.
However, an even easier way to do this is to make it so that the raid needs this material in order to maintain the gear they have crafted with it.
It may be that gear is destroyed with use, which would mean that the raid needs to maintain a stockpile of these items in order to replace destroyed items.
Or, it could be that gear takes damage, and you need to use the same materials used to make an item in order to repair it. This would then mean that guilds need to stockpile this material in order to repair gear.
In both cases above, the more gear in the raid that uses this material, the more of the material the raid needs to keep stockpiled.
Ashes will have a system somewhat similar to one of the above, though I am a bit uncertain as to which way they are going with it.
All the above said, it is perfectly possible to have a no-trade flag on the material from the raid boss that is used to craft the top end item. All you need to do is have an in game crafting commission system where you meet a crafter (at an appropriate crafting station), you initiate a commission crafting session which opens up a UI window for both players. The window allows the commissioner to select the item to be crafted, and a gold value to go to the commissionee, and then shows the items needed to craft the item that is selected. From there, both players are able to drag items to the window in order for them to be used in crafting the item - meaning no-trade items can be used just fine.
When finished, the item is placed in the commissioner's inventory, and the agreed upon gold is transferred from the commissioner to the commissionee.
As to why we should specifically want high end items to be player crafted rather than from an NPC - it is the only real way to make crafting worthwhile.
If a game only has crafted gear that is of use at low levels or as entry level gear, then there is no real need to even have crafting in the game. If there is no way to get top end gear from crafting, all players will look at crafted gear as less good than drops from mobs.
However, if the best gear in the game is made by crafters, then people are more happy to use crafted gear at all levels of the game. It also means there is a point to leveling up as a crafter, which is always a good thing.
Maybe I am the exception, but for me the gear is the tool to beat the hardest content, not the goal. So I do not do the PvE content to get gear, I get the gear to be able to beat the content.
I'm the same.
This is why I have always disliked PvP content. You aren't getting the gear to beat the content, you are getting the gear to avoid being someone elses content.
I also thought about a system what you explained, but I did not want to expand my comment further. That is why I put that comment in bracket. If you add together our comments, you receive something what is worse than a wall of text.
I just have one observation. If the guild/raider do not sell the special material for any reason, they will not sell the crafted gear for the same reason. So you will not be able to buy best equipment for gold neither from crafters. So this system is not equal to "farm gold"-"buy player" system. The crafters will be important and necessary for the game, what I find perfectly OK. But they will not be gear sellers, rather then processors.
Regarding PvP, I like it less than PvE, but I gladly participate in any PvP content. My issue with it that I want to do PvP activity to get PvP gear. If they manage to need the same gear for PvP and PvE, I will be OK. They plan that, but I have a huge question-mark about it.
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leameseMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
There is probably enough stuff to do. No dailies at all. Let ppl create there own quests for others
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
No. Daily quests are a lazy method to keep people playing. make the game fun and enjoyable and people will log in as much as they can.
Also, dailies are not only boring game development, but they also make people feel like they can't play the game the way they want to which will lead to lack of enjoyment and burnout.
Regarding PvP, I like it less than PvE, but I gladly participate in any PvP content. My issue with it that I want to do PvP activity to get PvP gear. If they manage to need the same gear for PvP and PvE, I will be OK. They plan that, but I have a huge question-mark about it.
Having completely separate gear for PvP and PvE only really works if the PvP is confined to closed arenas, which Ashes most certainly won't. Whether you like it or not you will need to engage in world PvP in order to do any meaningful PvE content.
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ilisfetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Repeatable quests? Sure. Stuff like re-supply the tavern with meat, guard this caravan, get the smithy some ore; that kind of stuff will provide reasonable and meaningful busywork.
But daily quests? Fuck no. Arbitrary time restrictions on performing a repeatable quest is a "no." What makes it always worse is games (not just MMOs) put alternate currencies or high necessities items behind dailies, so you have to do them every day or fall behind, with no means of catching back up. Not to mention hardcore players will burn through those rewards much quicker but be unable to replenish them.
So, repeatables are fine. Don't make them "you can only do this quest once per day."
Well it is a monthly subscription not a daily subscription. Really with the amount of things that there are to do in mmo do not think dailies are not necessary. Achievements mount collecting, gear collecting pet collecting. getting raids done chalennge material. Think be better if you had like 3 days to get quest done be cool. recurring quests should be used for variety to keep people questing in areas. Certain areas are really cool to quest in but if you already did all quests area then area is kind of wasted.
Also i think how wow handle dailies is better than pretty much all mmos, world quests are not required, but they are dailies, they just feel a bit different from the normal daily.
It eliminates the need to find a starting point when you log in. Especially if it's a game with tons of content, it can be quite overwhelming. So I generally will start with dailies and then find my way to other content naturally after, since my head isn't spinning about what I should do.
One thing I do like about ESO is that they rotate the dungeon dailies every day, so technically it's the same content just a different aesthetic.
It eliminates the need to find a starting point when you log in. Especially if it's a game with tons of content, it can be quite overwhelming. So I generally will start with dailies and then find my way to other content naturally after, since my head isn't spinning about what I should do.
One thing I do like about ESO is that they rotate the dungeon dailies every day, so technically it's the same content just a different aesthetic.
Do you not have long term goals in MMO's that you play?
If you have a goal, the thing you do when you log in is the thingthat advances you towards said goal.
I don't remember the last time I logged in to a game without a definate plan of what to do.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Dailies can contribute towards long term goals.
At the core, a Daily is just a task/quest that can be accomplished in a short period of time - around 15 minutes or less. As opposed to a general task/quest which will take 30+ minutes.
There is tendency in this thread for people to think about dailies as a task/quest that only impacts the individual character rather than a task/quest that can aggregate from multiple players to affect Nodes, regions and social orgs, etc.
Steven has already said that Dailies in Ashes will not be something that make people feel obligated to log in and they won't make people feel like they missed something if they don't do them.
That is true already for the Apoc Dailies - I can jump in knowing it's only going to take me one or two matches to finish the Dailies or if it's something I suck at - like damaging people with Wands - I have no problem skipping it. I don't feel like it's an obligation to attempt every Daily and I don't feel like I'm missing out on the reward if I skip them.
In Wizard101, I don't feel an obligation to attempt every Daily and it also feels OK to not get a Daily Reward every day. If the Daily is going to cause me to travel more than 15 minutes, I skip it. But, I don't log in every day to check what the task/quest is - the Dailies are just something that's typically quick and easy to do on the days that I do log in.
There are plenty of MMORPGs that have the kind of Dailies people are complaining about.
But, those aren't the only ways to design Dailies.
"Obligate people to log in and mandatory to complete" are not intrinsic components of Dailies.
They can, but that doesn't make it a good reason to add them to any given game.
Daily quests have a very specific connotation to experienced MMO players, as this thread makes blatantly obvious.
Based on that, I see no reason why any game developer would add them to a new game.
There are other methods to provide the value and function that daily quests provide without also adding the negative association that comes with "daily quests".
There absolutely will be something that fills the role that daily quests fill in many other games, but there is no need for what ever fills that specific need to be restricted to a single completion per day.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2019
Doesn't really matter whether there is a "good reason".
What matters is whether the devs choose to include Dailies in their game design.
Also, connotations that experienced MMORPG players have are irrelevant. What matters is how the devs implement Dailies - if the devs implement Dailies.
Experienced game devs also have connotations of what MMORPG battlegrounds are that don't match Steven's vision of battlegrounds.
The major draw of Ashes is that these devs will be implementing features differently than previous MMORPGs.
I'm not sure what you mean by "restricted to single completion per day".
One of my favorite Apoc Dailies is Open 3 Chests. We get 2,000 xp for that.
I might also be working on Weeklies, like Open 20 Chests and Open 100 Chests, for 6,500 xp each.
The value of the Daily is that I can, on a day when I have little interest or time, jump in for one or two matches and be done. Or, on a day when I have more interest or more free time, play a whole bunch of matches for several hours until I complete both Weeklies.
The specific Daily Reward might be restricted to a single completion that day. As in, I'm not going to get 2K xp every time I open 3 chests. Sure.
In Wiz101, I'm only going to get the Daily Reward of crowns or gold or PvP ticket (depending on where I am on the reward calendar) for the first time I complete the task, but that's just a bonus to whatever else I will get for completing those tasks multiple times.
In Ashes, Dailies might very well encourage me to participate in an activity I might normally ignore. I might choose to work on pet breeding on a day where I know I can get a bonus for pet breeding, whereas I'd normally be focused on exploration or smithing or some other activity. I might make it a point to travel to a temple to pray on a day that has a Religion bonus for the Daily, whereas I would normally just stay out exploring the wilderness...(depends on whether I thought the reward was worth the travel time).
Dailies -especially in Ashes- are designed to be a bonus; not something that is necessary or obligatory.
In Ashes, Dailies might very well encourage me to participate in an activity I might normally ignore. I might choose to work on pet breeding on a day where I know I can get a bonus for pet breeding, whereas I'd normally be focused on exploration or smithing or some other activity. I might make it a point to travel to a temple to pray on a day that has a Religion bonus for the Daily, whereas I would normally just stay out exploring the wilderness...(depends on whether I thought the reward was worth the travel time).
Dailies -especially in Ashes- are designed to be a bonus; not something that is necessary or obligatory.
These two statement seem contradictory to me.
If a daily task that requires me to do something I wouldn't otherwise want to do were offered to me, I wouldn't do it unless the reward compelled me to do it. If this were true, then the statement that daily quests are just a bonus would no longer be true.
If the reward is compelling enough to do something you wouldn't otherwise do (or travel somewhere you wouldn't otherwise travel) then daily quests are not a bonus, they are dictating your activity.
If that statement were true and daily quests were just a bonus, then if one came up requiring me to do something I wouldn't otherwise do, then I still wouldn't do it.
You claim to have worked for a game developer. Assuming this is true, and assuming you worked on games rather than like HR or something, you would know full well that daily tasks are only ostensibly about the task.
Their purpose is the reward, and making sure it is as evenly spread around as possible.
What I am saying is that there are FAR better ways of doing this than daily quests, and I have outlined a better way earlier in this thread.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Dailies are a symptom of low attention spans that demand instant gratification for little-to-no effort
You can easily do something meaningful with ten to twenty minutes, what you’re asking for is to have rewards thrown at you for basically nothing.
That is just an unsubstantiated assertion and assumption.
Meaningful is subjective - sure.
Meaningful is going to be defined by the impact on the player and the impact on the world.
Effort and whether or not a task can easily be accomplished in ten to twenty minutes depends on what the task is, how good the individual player is at the task and how long it takes the player to travel to and from the task/quest location.
I don't think I've asked for anything.
Rather, I have stated that the purpose of Dailies is to give players something to do that can typically be accomplished in a matter of 10-20 minutes. You yourself have just stated that something meaningful can be accomplished in that span of time, so... we seem to be in agreement there.
Easy enough for the Ashes devs to make individually trivial tasks accrue to have a meaningful impact on a node, a region, a religion or a social org, etc.
Likewise, Daily Rewards can be trivial individually - as they are in Apoc and in Wiz101- but, they accrue into something meaningful over time.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If a daily task that requires me to do something I wouldn't otherwise want to do were offered to me, I wouldn't do it unless the reward compelled me to do it. If this were true, then the statement that daily quests are just a bonus would no longer be true.
Well, part of the problem is presenting the scenario as a task that "requires players to do something" rather than offering a task for players to do.
Part of the problem is you reframing my phrase "normally ignore" as "something I wouldn't otherwise want to do."
I didn't say "something I wouldn't otherwise want to do."
I am the Charles Darwin of Wiz101. I systematically experimented with the pet breeding system and figured out a consistent methodology for determining which traits in a pet's petnome will breed true in the offspring.
A group of us started the Petnome Project which charts for other players the petnomes of 1st generation pets. Which means we have to train several versions of each 1st generation pet from Baby to Ancient in order to complete its entire petnome. A pet's entire petnome is 20 abilities but an individual pet will only exhibit a max of 10 abilities. That's work that I frequently do, but I don't normally do that work on a daily basis. I might take one day every week or two to focus on pet training. When I returned to playing this year, there has been the addition of once a month weekends with double bonus pet training or double bonus gardening.
Which means I will often try to wait for the bonus pet training weekend to focus on training pets.
But, I don't like gardening in Wiz101, so double gardening bonus weekends do not entice me to garden.
While I expect to do some pet breeding in Ashes, I expect to normally be focused on exploration and supporting a religion and supporting a thieves' guild. Seems likely to me that Ashes MMORPG Dailies will rotate similar to Apoc Dailies. If so, I expect to focus on pet breeding on the days that include a Daily Reward for pet breeding. Pet breeding is something I will get around to at some point even without a Daily Reward, but if there is a pet breeding Daily Reward once a week, I would probably focus on pet breeding more often than once or twice a month.
If the reward is compelling enough to do something you wouldn't otherwise do (or travel somewhere you wouldn't otherwise travel) then daily quests are not a bonus, they are dictating your activity.
Right. This is a strawman. You are arguing something that I did not say.
Specifically, you have reframed what I said and are arguing as if I said that.
I did not say, "something I wouldn't otherwise do (or travel somewhere I wouldn't otherwise travel)."
Right now, I am Level 25 in Apoc.
If there is a Daily to Open 3 Chests, I will do that Daily because it's relatively easy and I'm sure I can complete that in one or two matches. If there is a quest to Kill 1 Player with a Wand, I won't even attempt it because I suck at ranged weapons and it's not worth my time - might take me several hours to accomplish that rather than 10-20 minutes and still might not happen that day.
Daily quests don't dictate my activities, but they may adjust my initial plans, depending on whether or not I think they will significantly disrupt my plans for the day. And the primary consideration is time - how long is it going to take me to complete that task? If it's going to take me more than 10-20 minutes, either due to difficulty or traveling time, I'm not going to do the Daily. And, in Wiz101 and Apoc, the rewards are not so great that I feel like I'm missing anything should I choose to ignore those tasks. If I choose to do the tasks, the rewards I receive are small bonuses that stack over time. It's kinda like putting pennies in a penny jar.
If that statement were true and daily quests were just a bonus, then if one came up requiring me to do something I wouldn't otherwise do, then I still wouldn't do it.
This is another strawman. I never said "Daily quests are just about the bonus."
All depends on how the Dailies are designed and implemented.
You claim to have worked for a game developer. Assuming this is true, and assuming you worked on games rather than like HR or something, you would know full well that daily tasks are only ostensibly about the task.
This, again, depends on the the design and implementation of the Dailies.
In Wiz101, my alt has been on Daily Reward Day 4 for a month. Daily Reward Day 4 is 10 crowns. Day 9 is 15 crowns Day 14 is 25 crowns. The calendar resets once I complete Day 15... whenever I choose to do enough Dailies to hit Day 15 with my alt.
If I actually did the Dailies every day, I could accrue 100 crowns each month. I currently have 4,952 crowns, so that 100 is not significant enough to have me feeling obligated to do a Daily every day. When I'm ready to do one, I can.
My main is on Day 8 and has been on Day 8 for a month. The reward is 10 PvP tickets. Day 3 is 5 PvP tickets. Day 8 is 10 tickets. Day 13 is 15 tickets. So, I can get 60 PvP tickets per month if I do the Dailies every day. Of course, I'm never going to use PvP tickets, so that's not even an incentive at all.
Looks like I could end up with about 4K gold per month if I did the Dailies every day. I never really paid attention to how much gold I could accrue before now. But, my main has 134K gold and my alt has 27K gold. I could probably hit 4K pretty quickly just selling all the crap I'm carrying in my backpack.
The incentive to do the Daily is not really about the bonuses. The bonuses are fairly trivial, but the tasks are also typically trivial enough that -if I'm playing the game on a regular basis- it's fine to take 10 or 20 minutes to complete them. If the travel is going to be too convoluted, the rewards aren't worth it. Also, I don't really miss out on anything by skipping days. The same rewards will still be waiting on the same Day whenever I'm ready to continue participating in Dailies.
In Apoc, Daily rewards are always the same: 2K xp.
2K xp is not worth me wasting the time and effort to spend a bunch of matches and likely a bunch of hours trying to kill 1 player with a wand.
2K xp is worth the time and effort to jump into a match or two and open 3 chests. And that's a great bonus when I also have a Weekly to open 20 chests.
Again, those same rewards are going to be there waiting for me the next day - and whenever I choose to avail myself of those rewards, so I don't feel like obligated and I don't feel like I'm missing anything should I choose not to avail myself of those quests.
However - the Dailies for vanilla NWO were a pain in the ass - a significantly different design. In that design, the Daily Reward Calendar would reset to Day 1 if you skipped a day. So, rewards you might have been building up to would no longer be available if you missed a day of participation. If I neglected to do the Daily on Day 8, the next time I logged in, I'd be back to Day 1. IIRC, the timer for that was 24 hours after your last completion, so if I overslept one day, that could push the time to later in the day - which could then conflict with my work and/or class schedules. That felt like an obligation. That felt like I was missing out if I missed as day. And that felt like what I did was being dictated because I'd have to do whatever task was offered rather than wait until something I like better was offered.
That's the style of Daily that should be avoided...and the kind of design the Ashes devs say they won't implement.
If you read the suggestion I made for a better way to implement a similar concept, you would notice striking similarities to what you have talked about in Wizard 101.
It isn't the same, as the system in that game still has glaring issues. However, it is similar.
Perhaps before attacking an argument, you should understand said argument.
Comments
You’re misunderstanding the fundamental difference in which players determine how widespread a particular piece of high-tier gear is, vs the game setting it concretely as unlimited.
It is very different using tokens earned from casual gameplay than it is to commission a player who has completed a multitude of quests, or purchased from a high end raider who looted it, to get a rare recipe.
I find an economy defined by NPC prices to be boring at best. It’s certainly negative for players who want to earn funds off their crafting, and for the very reason high tier gear shouldn’t be made available in unlimited quantities by the game in any capacity.
Edit: If you don’t care about the health of player economies then we have a baseline disagreement here. I’m in favor of player controlled systems, not game controlled systems except for the most basic supplies.
If you are able to buy highend gear from crafter for money, technically, you farmed the gear.
I have never played with an MMO where you are able to buy highend gear for gold and I find it OK to play with it for months. So I tried to raise critical points in my original comment. (As I read it again, it is a little bit confusing). I care about health of the economy, but we have very limited information regarding what they plan. I saw in other games when a good looking thing caused big mess. If I do not see good examples but I see where can it be wrong, it crates fear in me about the game.
Let me clarify then. End game gear should not be created within the game simply by farming a currency. It should either be purposefully created by a player who has obtained a rare recipe and has chosen to distribute it, or it should be a drop obtained by a raider who may chose to sell it.
It creates an imbalance in desirability and in some cases disrupt balance in a PvP environment when everyone can obtain something “rare” and powerful through a NPC purchase.
As an example, in ESO, there are 2 piece item sets that have a lot of power. Typically the DLC dungeon sets are more difficult to obtain due to being obtained from veteran modes of dungeons, so when one was a powerful healing tool, that was ok because it was used primarily by the people who farmed that PvE content within that PvE content.
Then it got released for a weekend in a vendor that uses PvP currency, and next thing you know that potent heal tool was on every other player in the PvP zone, and the next patch it was nerfed into uselessness for larger raid groups in PvE.
Players don't know shit (no offense).
Look at it from a developer perspective.
If you have high end equipment in your game, you want the ability to make it scarce.
If you have high end equipment in your game, you want people to have to play through the content you have spent the most time on in order to get it.
If - as a developer - you put your best items up for sale on an NPC for gold (even if it is a lot of gold), then the only content you need to make is content for players to use to farm gold. There is no point putting in content that makes use of that gear - unless that content then drops better gear which would then mean that the gear on the NPC wasn't the best gear negating the whole situation.
The Dailies in Apoc are not something that we must do as the first time per day. It might take several matches to complete an Apoc Daily, should a player choose to pursue that Daily.
Dailies are bonus rewards for doing a menial task. "First time per day" is not an inherent component.
I'm not sure what you mean by, "bonus comes out of nowhere". In Wizard101, players have to go to the quest giver who hands out Dailies. The reward for the first 2/5 days of the week is gold. The 3rd day is PVP arena tickets. The 4th day is crowns (embers). The 5th day is an item. The 3rd week, the 2nd day is a mystery item). At the end of the 3rd week (15 days), that reward pattern resets.
My main character is on the 3rd day of the 2nd week (Day 8). My alt character is on the 4th day of the 1st week (Day 4). And they will stay there until they complete a Daily.
Sure, they will immediately receive their reward without me having to return to the quest giver. But, I don't understand why that would be problematic.
In Apoc, we can choose to do the Dailies or ignore them. And we receive the rewards (2000 xp) after we complete the match.
Which MMORPG grants 10 gold for crafting three pieces of armor where crafting armor usually grants none without player interaction?? And why must that be the example Ashes is likely to follow??
Easy enough to have the Dailies reward embers or emotes or hairstyles or monster coin tokens, similar to Apoc rewards, instead of gold if there is a concern about negatively affecting the economy.
Doesn't really matter whether Dailies are unnecessary. What matters is what the devs want in their game design. I'd need to see data that supports the claim that Dailies "reward people with more alts than dedication to game content."
I love alts, but I am rarely enticed to complete Dailies on all of my alts. That decision really is more about whether a specific Daily is something I like to do or something that specific characters are interested. It's rarely about the rewards. Typically the rewards are also trivial - but small bonuses can be better than nothing if the task isn't too laborious.
Someone did say that anything you can do in ten minutes cannot be meaningful, but that is not true in Ashes because everything we do adds to Node progression - so if numerous people complete a Daily to travel to xx region and kill three mobs, that will significantly affect the progression of that Node.
Same is true for Dailies focused on Religious or Social progression. Because in Ashes, it's not just about how completed tasks affects the individual player character, but also about how the completed tasks impact the world dynamics.
First of all, I raised up another points but it seems nobody understood it. (I also see it was a little bit messy.)
1. In the WoW, you were not able to buy the best PvP gear from honorfarming unless you reach certain level in PvP rank. So you had to prove some skill level before you were able to get the best gear. (So pure farm is not enough)
2. In case of PvE gear, you had to do the hardest PvE content to get the best gear. It was souldbound. (Can't farm at all.)
3. In a world where a crafter can have the recepie for the best gear the question to get the gear is only the amount of gold and some knowledge who is the person who is able to create that gear. (purely farm gold)
The first 2 mechanics can't ruin the economics because they are outside from it.
The 3rd option is the most complicated. If production is depend on raw material in this case there will be extreme amount of best gear on the market, because once the crafter get the recepie, can produce it limitlessly. (Nobody want it)
So we have to limit it somehow.
One solution is that you need special material to craft the gear. From that point the question is how can you obtain that special material? If you receive it from raid bosses, at the beginning it will be limited, for the person who defeat the raid bosses. After they have the needed amount they will sell it. From that point the there will be more and more special material on the market so the best gear will be cheaper and cheaper. So for healthy economy you have to do something to handle the situation. (I do not want to design a full economy systems so I stop here.)
As you can see, once the receipt is available the situation become more and more near to the situation where you can buy the best gear for gold from NPC for lot of gold.
I would like to emphasize that I do not want to have the situation that you can buy best gear from an NPC for tradeable currency (usually it is gold).
Maybe I am the exception, but for me the gear is the tool to beat the hardest content, not the goal. So I do not do the PvE content to get gear, I get the gear to be able to beat the content.
This paragraph here highlights exactly WHY I’m against dailies in a game that is supposed to be complex and rewarding.
There shouldn’t HAVE to be dailies if the reward systems are designed well.
Dailies are a cheap gimmick to shroud a poor reward system on shallow gameplay. And yes, I can be honest here, APOC is not some complex gaming masterpiece. It’s here to test systems and dailies are the easy method to push players into alternate activities where other meaningful rewards can’t be provided.
This entire thread is thankfully a moot point since it’s been stated multiple times we won’t be getting dailies in the MMO. It’s not near so hard as some may claim to have a reward system that doesn’t rely on exploiting the Fear of Missing Out.
Q: "Will there be RNG as dailies and stuff like that?"
A: "I don't think those will be RNG based. Those will be probably- you will see the reward structure for those types of quests. Will they be dailies? No they won't be in the sense of what we've experienced dailies in the past where you feel so obligated to log in and like you'll miss these things. It's more gonna be focused around like how the world is changing and how the changes in the world relate to your opportunities; and then, you know if... your location's gonna matter because fast travel is not a thing. Where you're located at is going to determine your you know the risk versus reward opportunities that are present; and then depending on the time that those occur."
In summary, “No there’s not typical dailies everyone will be getting, and we’re not going to design them to be so rewarding they become mandatory, but there will be quests available every day because the world is in constant flux and opportunities are always changing.”
That’s the kind of minor questing and reward structuring that I’m in favor of. Quests that make sense with rewards that make sense for the quests you choose to do.
First of all, it is absolutely possible to have crafting based raid drops that are so valuable to the raid as a whole that they won't sell them. All you need to do is make it so that the item can be used to craft consumables that are better than anything else available.
However, an even easier way to do this is to make it so that the raid needs this material in order to maintain the gear they have crafted with it.
It may be that gear is destroyed with use, which would mean that the raid needs to maintain a stockpile of these items in order to replace destroyed items.
Or, it could be that gear takes damage, and you need to use the same materials used to make an item in order to repair it. This would then mean that guilds need to stockpile this material in order to repair gear.
In both cases above, the more gear in the raid that uses this material, the more of the material the raid needs to keep stockpiled.
Ashes will have a system somewhat similar to one of the above, though I am a bit uncertain as to which way they are going with it.
All the above said, it is perfectly possible to have a no-trade flag on the material from the raid boss that is used to craft the top end item. All you need to do is have an in game crafting commission system where you meet a crafter (at an appropriate crafting station), you initiate a commission crafting session which opens up a UI window for both players. The window allows the commissioner to select the item to be crafted, and a gold value to go to the commissionee, and then shows the items needed to craft the item that is selected. From there, both players are able to drag items to the window in order for them to be used in crafting the item - meaning no-trade items can be used just fine.
When finished, the item is placed in the commissioner's inventory, and the agreed upon gold is transferred from the commissioner to the commissionee.
As to why we should specifically want high end items to be player crafted rather than from an NPC - it is the only real way to make crafting worthwhile.
If a game only has crafted gear that is of use at low levels or as entry level gear, then there is no real need to even have crafting in the game. If there is no way to get top end gear from crafting, all players will look at crafted gear as less good than drops from mobs.
However, if the best gear in the game is made by crafters, then people are more happy to use crafted gear at all levels of the game. It also means there is a point to leveling up as a crafter, which is always a good thing. I'm the same.
This is why I have always disliked PvP content. You aren't getting the gear to beat the content, you are getting the gear to avoid being someone elses content.
I also thought about a system what you explained, but I did not want to expand my comment further. That is why I put that comment in bracket. If you add together our comments, you receive something what is worse than a wall of text.
I just have one observation. If the guild/raider do not sell the special material for any reason, they will not sell the crafted gear for the same reason. So you will not be able to buy best equipment for gold neither from crafters. So this system is not equal to "farm gold"-"buy player" system. The crafters will be important and necessary for the game, what I find perfectly OK. But they will not be gear sellers, rather then processors.
Regarding PvP, I like it less than PvE, but I gladly participate in any PvP content. My issue with it that I want to do PvP activity to get PvP gear. If they manage to need the same gear for PvP and PvE, I will be OK. They plan that, but I have a huge question-mark about it.
Also, dailies are not only boring game development, but they also make people feel like they can't play the game the way they want to which will lead to lack of enjoyment and burnout.
Weeklies or even monthlies would be ideal .
Having completely separate gear for PvP and PvE only really works if the PvP is confined to closed arenas, which Ashes most certainly won't. Whether you like it or not you will need to engage in world PvP in order to do any meaningful PvE content.
But daily quests? Fuck no. Arbitrary time restrictions on performing a repeatable quest is a "no." What makes it always worse is games (not just MMOs) put alternate currencies or high necessities items behind dailies, so you have to do them every day or fall behind, with no means of catching back up. Not to mention hardcore players will burn through those rewards much quicker but be unable to replenish them.
So, repeatables are fine. Don't make them "you can only do this quest once per day."
Also i think how wow handle dailies is better than pretty much all mmos, world quests are not required, but they are dailies, they just feel a bit different from the normal daily.
It eliminates the need to find a starting point when you log in. Especially if it's a game with tons of content, it can be quite overwhelming. So I generally will start with dailies and then find my way to other content naturally after, since my head isn't spinning about what I should do.
One thing I do like about ESO is that they rotate the dungeon dailies every day, so technically it's the same content just a different aesthetic.
If you have a goal, the thing you do when you log in is the thingthat advances you towards said goal.
I don't remember the last time I logged in to a game without a definate plan of what to do.
At the core, a Daily is just a task/quest that can be accomplished in a short period of time - around 15 minutes or less. As opposed to a general task/quest which will take 30+ minutes.
There is tendency in this thread for people to think about dailies as a task/quest that only impacts the individual character rather than a task/quest that can aggregate from multiple players to affect Nodes, regions and social orgs, etc.
Steven has already said that Dailies in Ashes will not be something that make people feel obligated to log in and they won't make people feel like they missed something if they don't do them.
That is true already for the Apoc Dailies - I can jump in knowing it's only going to take me one or two matches to finish the Dailies or if it's something I suck at - like damaging people with Wands - I have no problem skipping it. I don't feel like it's an obligation to attempt every Daily and I don't feel like I'm missing out on the reward if I skip them.
In Wizard101, I don't feel an obligation to attempt every Daily and it also feels OK to not get a Daily Reward every day. If the Daily is going to cause me to travel more than 15 minutes, I skip it. But, I don't log in every day to check what the task/quest is - the Dailies are just something that's typically quick and easy to do on the days that I do log in.
There are plenty of MMORPGs that have the kind of Dailies people are complaining about.
But, those aren't the only ways to design Dailies.
"Obligate people to log in and mandatory to complete" are not intrinsic components of Dailies.
Daily quests have a very specific connotation to experienced MMO players, as this thread makes blatantly obvious.
Based on that, I see no reason why any game developer would add them to a new game.
There are other methods to provide the value and function that daily quests provide without also adding the negative association that comes with "daily quests".
There absolutely will be something that fills the role that daily quests fill in many other games, but there is no need for what ever fills that specific need to be restricted to a single completion per day.
What matters is whether the devs choose to include Dailies in their game design.
Also, connotations that experienced MMORPG players have are irrelevant. What matters is how the devs implement Dailies - if the devs implement Dailies.
Experienced game devs also have connotations of what MMORPG battlegrounds are that don't match Steven's vision of battlegrounds.
The major draw of Ashes is that these devs will be implementing features differently than previous MMORPGs.
I'm not sure what you mean by "restricted to single completion per day".
One of my favorite Apoc Dailies is Open 3 Chests. We get 2,000 xp for that.
I might also be working on Weeklies, like Open 20 Chests and Open 100 Chests, for 6,500 xp each.
The value of the Daily is that I can, on a day when I have little interest or time, jump in for one or two matches and be done. Or, on a day when I have more interest or more free time, play a whole bunch of matches for several hours until I complete both Weeklies.
The specific Daily Reward might be restricted to a single completion that day. As in, I'm not going to get 2K xp every time I open 3 chests. Sure.
In Wiz101, I'm only going to get the Daily Reward of crowns or gold or PvP ticket (depending on where I am on the reward calendar) for the first time I complete the task, but that's just a bonus to whatever else I will get for completing those tasks multiple times.
In Ashes, Dailies might very well encourage me to participate in an activity I might normally ignore. I might choose to work on pet breeding on a day where I know I can get a bonus for pet breeding, whereas I'd normally be focused on exploration or smithing or some other activity. I might make it a point to travel to a temple to pray on a day that has a Religion bonus for the Daily, whereas I would normally just stay out exploring the wilderness...(depends on whether I thought the reward was worth the travel time).
Dailies -especially in Ashes- are designed to be a bonus; not something that is necessary or obligatory.
You can easily do something meaningful with ten to twenty minutes, what you’re asking for is to have rewards thrown at you for basically nothing.
If a daily task that requires me to do something I wouldn't otherwise want to do were offered to me, I wouldn't do it unless the reward compelled me to do it. If this were true, then the statement that daily quests are just a bonus would no longer be true.
If the reward is compelling enough to do something you wouldn't otherwise do (or travel somewhere you wouldn't otherwise travel) then daily quests are not a bonus, they are dictating your activity.
If that statement were true and daily quests were just a bonus, then if one came up requiring me to do something I wouldn't otherwise do, then I still wouldn't do it.
You claim to have worked for a game developer. Assuming this is true, and assuming you worked on games rather than like HR or something, you would know full well that daily tasks are only ostensibly about the task.
Their purpose is the reward, and making sure it is as evenly spread around as possible.
What I am saying is that there are FAR better ways of doing this than daily quests, and I have outlined a better way earlier in this thread.
Meaningful is subjective - sure.
Meaningful is going to be defined by the impact on the player and the impact on the world.
Effort and whether or not a task can easily be accomplished in ten to twenty minutes depends on what the task is, how good the individual player is at the task and how long it takes the player to travel to and from the task/quest location.
I don't think I've asked for anything.
Rather, I have stated that the purpose of Dailies is to give players something to do that can typically be accomplished in a matter of 10-20 minutes. You yourself have just stated that something meaningful can be accomplished in that span of time, so... we seem to be in agreement there.
Easy enough for the Ashes devs to make individually trivial tasks accrue to have a meaningful impact on a node, a region, a religion or a social org, etc.
Likewise, Daily Rewards can be trivial individually - as they are in Apoc and in Wiz101- but, they accrue into something meaningful over time.
Part of the problem is you reframing my phrase "normally ignore" as "something I wouldn't otherwise want to do."
I didn't say "something I wouldn't otherwise want to do."
I am the Charles Darwin of Wiz101. I systematically experimented with the pet breeding system and figured out a consistent methodology for determining which traits in a pet's petnome will breed true in the offspring.
A group of us started the Petnome Project which charts for other players the petnomes of 1st generation pets. Which means we have to train several versions of each 1st generation pet from Baby to Ancient in order to complete its entire petnome. A pet's entire petnome is 20 abilities but an individual pet will only exhibit a max of 10 abilities. That's work that I frequently do, but I don't normally do that work on a daily basis. I might take one day every week or two to focus on pet training. When I returned to playing this year, there has been the addition of once a month weekends with double bonus pet training or double bonus gardening.
Which means I will often try to wait for the bonus pet training weekend to focus on training pets.
But, I don't like gardening in Wiz101, so double gardening bonus weekends do not entice me to garden.
While I expect to do some pet breeding in Ashes, I expect to normally be focused on exploration and supporting a religion and supporting a thieves' guild. Seems likely to me that Ashes MMORPG Dailies will rotate similar to Apoc Dailies. If so, I expect to focus on pet breeding on the days that include a Daily Reward for pet breeding. Pet breeding is something I will get around to at some point even without a Daily Reward, but if there is a pet breeding Daily Reward once a week, I would probably focus on pet breeding more often than once or twice a month.
Right. This is a strawman. You are arguing something that I did not say.
Specifically, you have reframed what I said and are arguing as if I said that.
I did not say, "something I wouldn't otherwise do (or travel somewhere I wouldn't otherwise travel)."
Right now, I am Level 25 in Apoc.
If there is a Daily to Open 3 Chests, I will do that Daily because it's relatively easy and I'm sure I can complete that in one or two matches. If there is a quest to Kill 1 Player with a Wand, I won't even attempt it because I suck at ranged weapons and it's not worth my time - might take me several hours to accomplish that rather than 10-20 minutes and still might not happen that day.
Daily quests don't dictate my activities, but they may adjust my initial plans, depending on whether or not I think they will significantly disrupt my plans for the day. And the primary consideration is time - how long is it going to take me to complete that task? If it's going to take me more than 10-20 minutes, either due to difficulty or traveling time, I'm not going to do the Daily. And, in Wiz101 and Apoc, the rewards are not so great that I feel like I'm missing anything should I choose to ignore those tasks. If I choose to do the tasks, the rewards I receive are small bonuses that stack over time. It's kinda like putting pennies in a penny jar.
This is another strawman. I never said "Daily quests are just about the bonus."
All depends on how the Dailies are designed and implemented.
This, again, depends on the the design and implementation of the Dailies.
In Wiz101, my alt has been on Daily Reward Day 4 for a month. Daily Reward Day 4 is 10 crowns. Day 9 is 15 crowns Day 14 is 25 crowns. The calendar resets once I complete Day 15... whenever I choose to do enough Dailies to hit Day 15 with my alt.
If I actually did the Dailies every day, I could accrue 100 crowns each month. I currently have 4,952 crowns, so that 100 is not significant enough to have me feeling obligated to do a Daily every day. When I'm ready to do one, I can.
My main is on Day 8 and has been on Day 8 for a month. The reward is 10 PvP tickets. Day 3 is 5 PvP tickets. Day 8 is 10 tickets. Day 13 is 15 tickets. So, I can get 60 PvP tickets per month if I do the Dailies every day. Of course, I'm never going to use PvP tickets, so that's not even an incentive at all.
Looks like I could end up with about 4K gold per month if I did the Dailies every day. I never really paid attention to how much gold I could accrue before now. But, my main has 134K gold and my alt has 27K gold. I could probably hit 4K pretty quickly just selling all the crap I'm carrying in my backpack.
The incentive to do the Daily is not really about the bonuses. The bonuses are fairly trivial, but the tasks are also typically trivial enough that -if I'm playing the game on a regular basis- it's fine to take 10 or 20 minutes to complete them. If the travel is going to be too convoluted, the rewards aren't worth it. Also, I don't really miss out on anything by skipping days. The same rewards will still be waiting on the same Day whenever I'm ready to continue participating in Dailies.
In Apoc, Daily rewards are always the same: 2K xp.
2K xp is not worth me wasting the time and effort to spend a bunch of matches and likely a bunch of hours trying to kill 1 player with a wand.
2K xp is worth the time and effort to jump into a match or two and open 3 chests. And that's a great bonus when I also have a Weekly to open 20 chests.
Again, those same rewards are going to be there waiting for me the next day - and whenever I choose to avail myself of those rewards, so I don't feel like obligated and I don't feel like I'm missing anything should I choose not to avail myself of those quests.
However - the Dailies for vanilla NWO were a pain in the ass - a significantly different design. In that design, the Daily Reward Calendar would reset to Day 1 if you skipped a day. So, rewards you might have been building up to would no longer be available if you missed a day of participation. If I neglected to do the Daily on Day 8, the next time I logged in, I'd be back to Day 1. IIRC, the timer for that was 24 hours after your last completion, so if I overslept one day, that could push the time to later in the day - which could then conflict with my work and/or class schedules. That felt like an obligation. That felt like I was missing out if I missed as day. And that felt like what I did was being dictated because I'd have to do whatever task was offered rather than wait until something I like better was offered.
That's the style of Daily that should be avoided...and the kind of design the Ashes devs say they won't implement.
I don't even know what that is supposed to mean.
What you're saying is not at all convincing.