There’s a real risk to a game with unrestricted PvP. Those people you “elites” call care-bears pay subscriptions also and they happen to be the vast majority of gamers and thus by far the greatest revenue stream. A game with little revenue will be a short lived game and the graveyard of MMOs is vast.
What I’ve never understood, because it’s completely illogical, is why you “elites” have problems with the care-bears having their PvE fun. It’s as if you “elites” are little tyrants and want to force everyone to play the way you want to play. Oh but I do understand the mindset to some extent, you “elites” want a target rich environment so you can have more fun at others’ expense.
The logical problem you obviously have, well not obvious to you, is that your target rich environment won’t remain target rich for long. Care-bears won’t stick around for long after getting repeatedly ganked. For some reason you “elites” don’t understand that.
"Those people you “elites” call care-bears pay subscriptions also and they happen to be the vast majority of gamers and thus by far the greatest revenue stream."
They can choose whether or not to play a pvp game or not, it isn't forced on them. That being said, there are plenty of pvp oriented players out there to fuel and play this game, the beauty of it though is there are also plenty of PvE players who enjoy risk vs reward in open world environments who will also gladly jump at the chance to play this game. It is PvX, so there is something for everyone, except maybe "carebears" who don't like the idea of risks.
" “elites” have problems with the care-bears having their PvE fun. It’s as if you “elites” are little tyrants and want to force everyone to play the way you want to play."
We don't want to force anyone to play something they don't want to, the irony is we don't want a game, designed for our playstyle, to be gutted and changed in a way that would force us to play the way carebears want to play... see the hypocrisy there?
"your target rich environment won’t remain target rich for long. Care-bears won’t stick around for long after getting repeatedly ganked. For some reason you “elites” don’t understand that."
I mean, what clearly is obvious, but isn't obvious to the carebear community is that this entire game is designed around things most of you don't want to play...so why are you even here? Players who enjoy the types of systems this game is implementing want likeminded players, not carebears looking to turn it into a copy of retail WoW. If you want a new Carebear MMO, go elsewhere, because this is open world PvX, not PVE. But if you stick around, accept that you will be playing a game where you can be ganked, you will be required to do pvp content, and there is no off-switch to any of it except to fight back.
Those people you “elites” call care-bears pay subscriptions also and they happen to be the vast majority of gamers and thus by far the greatest revenue stream. A game with little revenue will be a short lived game and the graveyard of MMOs is vast.
This is often the first step in the "Redesign the Game for Us" playbook. In every other scenario, people complain that games suffer because they are trying to make money instead of a good game. If you want to cater to the greatest revenue stream, you'll add some P2W because whales will prop you up incredibly.
No one wants that though, so you can't fall back on this as a strong foundation for an argument.
What I’ve never understood, because it’s completely illogical, is why you “elites” have problems with the care-bears having their PvE fun. It’s as if you “elites” are little tyrants and want to force everyone to play the way you want to play. Oh but I do understand the mindset to some extent, you “elites” want a target rich environment so you can have more fun at others’ expense.
Step 2: turning the argument around as if by design, PvE fun was supposed to be protected and anyone for open world PvP is trying to take their fun away. The truth is, often people like you are the ones coming in and trying to dictate how people can play the game.
You don't actually get to make that argument either. As an example, I don't like to gank people in the open world but I thoroughly enjoy the thrill of the possibility that I'll be ganked.
The logical problem you obviously have, well not obvious to you, is that your target rich environment won’t remain target rich for long. Care-bears won’t stick around for long after getting repeatedly ganked. For some reason you “elites” don’t understand that.
Again, threatening the longevity of the game and arguing that the game could make more money if designed a certain way. Of course it could.
But you haven't actually argued why it would make the game better. Should people who do not look for protection in guilds or groups be catered to in an open world MMO? Truly?
The longer this thread gets, the more confused I am.
While the debate of "whether open world pvp is good or bad for a game" can probably go on forever and it seems neither of the for/against camp will ever be able to convince the other ... what has confused me is ...
I wonder, those of you who are against open world pvp (non-consensual included), what have brought you to Ashes, an upcoming open-world PvX MMORPG?
A lot of the safe haven features you guys' been arguing for (consensual pvp ONLY, and instanced pve safe from hostile player interference), are already available in existing major MMOs like WoW & GW2.
What are you looking for in Ashes that WoW & GW2 couldn't provide?
I heard "l337est and Carebear" three times. So, here I am.
Amazing how people like throwing these terms around, as if they are insults. Talk about being an Elitest. OMG!
Using Carebear as a defense, in a clearly stated PvP game, is really moot. If PvX is not your thing (Yes, I used that term. Clearly some do not understand it.) there are a plithora of solo RPGs for you. Don't come to a clearly stated game, and want changes, like a troll.
Lastly, don't speak for a community with your single voice. You don't speak for me. I'm leetest like that.
Edit: And quit making us Carebears look bad. It only makes "your" argument look bad for "us".
Well I got plenty of typical responses from the “elites” and one a little less typical. I’m not going to take the time to respond to each as some simply aren’t worth the time.
It’s interesting how defensive the “elites” here are about their game. They read into my post that I want to force people to play or force people to play a specific way. I never suggested that.
You “elites” feel as though if people have an option to PvE in a PvP-free zone that will disrupt your game which is precisely what I was getting at in the first place. Someone PvEing where you cannot gank them doesn’t diminish your game in any way. Good luck getting through to you.
Giving others an option is clearly forcing a different play style on you. Why do the “elites” have so much difficultly understanding how stupid that statement is?
“Elites” want it your way, you want a pure game and that’s the only acceptable design. A design which gives people options pollutes your precious game. The cries of, “there are already other games out there with designs like that” made me reach for the cheese.
One even asked why people who would be accepting of a non-PvX design would even be here when there are so many other available options. I suppose the person asking that question found games without imperfections. Why aren’t we all playing Doom or Chess?
I knew when I posted the “elites” would be up in arms. I’ve been around long enough to know a bit about PvP “elites”. Despite that experience it’s still pretty strange to see the inevitable nonsensical irrational replies.
The one thing I’ll never be able to understand is the fact that the “elites” refuse to accept the fact that a PvX game will be a very short lived game. It has been tried before and while the servers attract attention at launch they always die rapidly. The same thing will happen with AoC if the developers go that direction because designing a system to prevent grief-ganking is extraordinarily difficult to get right, so much so that the feat has never been accomplished to date.
Well I got plenty of typical responses from the “elites” and one a little less typical. I’m not going to take the time to respond to each as some simply aren’t worth the time.
It’s interesting how defensive the “elites” here are about their game. They read into my post that I want to force people to play or force people to play a specific way. I never suggested that.
You “elites” feel as though if people have an option to PvE in a PvP-free zone that will disrupt your game which is precisely what I was getting at in the first place. Someone PvEing where you cannot gank them doesn’t diminish your game in any way. Good luck getting through to you.
Giving others an option is clearly forcing a different play style on you. Why do the “elites” have so much difficultly understanding how stupid that statement is?
“Elites” want it your way, you want a pure game and that’s the only acceptable design. A design which gives people options pollutes your precious game. The cries of, “there are already other games out there with designs like that” made me reach for the cheese.
One even asked why people who would be accepting of a non-PvX design would even be here when there are so many other available options. I suppose the person asking that question found games without imperfections. Why aren’t we all playing Doom or Chess?
I knew when I posted the “elites” would be up in arms. I’ve been around long enough to know a bit about PvP “elites”. Despite that experience it’s still pretty strange to see the inevitable nonsensical irrational replies.
The one thing I’ll never be able to understand is the fact that the “elites” refuse to accept the fact that a PvX game will be a very short lived game. It has been tried before and while the servers attract attention at launch they always die rapidly. The same thing will happen with AoC if the developers go that direction because designing a system to prevent grief-ganking is extraordinarily difficult to get right, so much so that the feat has never been accomplished to date.
Dude i really dont know who are you calling elites here most of people against your ideas, are people who came here for pvx game. PVP free zones kind of goes against core design of the game, and it might not be obvious, but it does destroy whole games idea. What i like about games like AOC is that they are least restrictive games, where you can actually do what you want. PVP free zone, is a zone where there's restriction for PVP and i dont like restrictions.
There are much more WOW clones that failed miserably, than there are PVX games. And most recent PVX games, which are quite old, they still are going, some of them not as well as they should have been, but simply due to P2W and not the fact that its PVX
@Moid Listen man, if you can't understand that you are trying to force players to play a certain way I don't know what to tell you. You are trying to change an entire games systems to suit your playstyle, if this was being marketed as a PvE game and us "Elites" ,as you love to call PvPers, were trying to force it into a mandatory PvP or PvX game, we would be the ones forcing you to change to our playstyle. And that isn't the right thing to do because that goes against the developers vision. So try to really think for a moment so you can try to understand that what you are advocating for is that steven and the entire development team should scrap their vision and completely restructure the game, just so you don't have to worry about getting ganked... and that isn't cool man.
... They read into my post that I want to force people to play or force people to play a specific way. I never suggested that ...
... The cries of, “there are already other games out there with designs like that” ...
... One even asked why people who would be accepting of a non-PvX design would even be here when there are so many other available options. I suppose the person asking that question found games without imperfections ...
... that a PvX game will be a very short lived game. It has been tried before and while the servers attract attention at launch they always die rapidly. The same thing will happen with AoC if the developers go that direction because designing a system to prevent grief-ganking is extraordinarily difficult to get right, so much so that the feat has never been accomplished to date.
Ok this is what I have left after attempting to filter out the emotion-loaded junk, name-calling fillers, and out-of-scope arguments unrelated to mmorpg from your post. Please try to be concise and to the point next time, nobody cares about your cheese.
Anyway, let me try to get this right ... So the imperfections in other existing mmorpgs, which match your playstyle, have motivated you to look for another potentially less imperfect game. But instead of finding a new game that suits you, your search has led you to Ashes, an upcoming open world PvX mmorpg that does not match your playstyle ... ? Weird enough.
If I was in your situation, I would've just moved on to continue my hunt for the ideal game. But instead, you've signed up for an Intrepid account, found a flaming thread on the forum which happened to be about open pvp, dropped your own facts, and labeled people whom you disagreed with as "elites" or "tyrants". Why? To ... enlighten everyone and make them see things your way?? I guess?
That's what I'm confused and curious about. What have brought you (and others) to Ashes? Why even bother to sign up and participate in Ashes' forum if you don't like its PvX gameplay?
Are you trying to influence ppl (devs included), potentially changing Ashes' gameplay, so it would fit your style? That makes this statement ...
... They read into my post that I want to force people to play or force people to play a specific way. I never suggested that ...
... invalid, because now you ARE trying to force many of us to either leave or play a game that would be vastly different from what has originally brought us here.
Or are you sincerely worried about the future of Ashes and Intrepid? Because based on your own facts all PvX mmorpg will rapidly die out after launch? Well in that case don't waste your time on the forums, by all means please contact the Intrepid team directly. They may thank you for enlightening them and saving them from an impending disaster.
The longer this thread gets, the more confused I am.
While the debate of "whether open world pvp is good or bad for a game" can probably go on forever and it seems neither of the for/against camp will ever be able to convince the other ... what has confused me is ...
I wonder, those of you who are against open world pvp (non-consensual included), what have brought you to Ashes, an upcoming open-world PvX MMORPG?
A lot of the safe haven features you guys' been arguing for (consensual pvp ONLY, and instanced pve safe from hostile player interference), are already available in existing major MMOs like WoW & GW2.
What are you looking for in Ashes that WoW & GW2 couldn't provide?
That's a good point. There is already an abundance of MMOs who cater heavily to this themepark audience, whereas most big PvP games are either MOBAs, FPS or Battle Royale.
If a PvP MMO could appeal to the latter audience, that'd be a huge influx of players.
It’s amazing how hard headed some people are and how stunningly and completely illogical they are.
I’m now being told by people who clearly aren’t much more conscious than a rock that giving people options in a game is “trying to force players to play a certain way”.
Even *almost* the dumbest people amongst us know how stupid such a statement is. Yeah, I hurt someone’s feelings by pointing that out. The truth hurts. Hey, fix it, stop being stupid, it isn’t hard.
I understood before I made my original post that you “elites” would not want to hear dissenting opinions. You should consider your hysterical emotional irrational responses and the ridiculous things it causes you to say just like the above. Yes, I know you won’t as you are slaves to your emotions.
Then we get the moronic questions.
“Why even bother to sign up and participate in Ashes' forum if you don't like its PvX gameplay?”
Has AoC been released yet? Who’s played it so far? I’ll be the first to admit that I have been unable to play a game which hasn’t released yet. Pretty shocking huh?
This does help explain things though. Clearly the people I’m “discussing” this with aren’t all there. The rest of the post is as nonsensical as the question.
The not so interesting observation is the constant questions about why us non-purists are even doing here, what brought us here, why are we staying here, etc. The not at all subtle suggestion is that we should leave rather than speaking. Those attempts to shut down speech is tyrannical. It’s typical of the “elitists” I’ve encountered in the past and not at all surprising to me.
In that vein, not ironically, people asking “why we are here” blindly miss their supporters who clearly state there are other PvX games:
“And most recent PVX games, which are quite old, they still are going“
So are people really asking why I’m here? No, they aren’t. People, “elites”, want their precious game designed the way they feel will make them happy. Any design which deviates will cause them to have hurt feelings and possibly cry.
So are people really asking why I’m here? No, they aren’t. People, “elites”, want their precious game designed the way they feel will make them happy. Any design which deviates will cause them to have hurt feelings and possibly cry.
Yeah I have no idea what you are going on about to be honest. The games being designed in the devs vision and that includes all the things you are arguing against. We want the game to stay on track the way it is and not change the entire vision of the game to cater to certain types of players.
You should consider your hysterical emotional irrational responses and the ridiculous things it causes you to say just like the above
You are legitimately the only person right now who is coming across as hysterical, emotional and irrational. Calling everybody stupid and morons isn't really helping your case either.
It’s amazing how hard headed some people are and how stunningly and completely illogical they are.
I’m now being told by people who clearly aren’t much more conscious than a rock that giving people options in a game is “trying to force players to play a certain way”.
Even *almost* the dumbest people amongst us know how stupid such a statement is. Yeah, I hurt someone’s feelings by pointing that out. The truth hurts. Hey, fix it, stop being stupid, it isn’t hard.
I understood before I made my original post that you “elites” would not want to hear dissenting opinions. You should consider your hysterical emotional irrational responses and the ridiculous things it causes you to say just like the above. Yes, I know you won’t as you are slaves to your emotions.
Then we get the moronic questions.
“Why even bother to sign up and participate in Ashes' forum if you don't like its PvX gameplay?”
Has AoC been released yet? Who’s played it so far? I’ll be the first to admit that I have been unable to play a game which hasn’t released yet. Pretty shocking huh?
This does help explain things though. Clearly the people I’m “discussing” this with aren’t all there. The rest of the post is as nonsensical as the question.
The not so interesting observation is the constant questions about why us non-purists are even doing here, what brought us here, why are we staying here, etc. The not at all subtle suggestion is that we should leave rather than speaking. Those attempts to shut down speech is tyrannical. It’s typical of the “elitists” I’ve encountered in the past and not at all surprising to me.
In that vein, not ironically, people asking “why we are here” blindly miss their supporters who clearly state there are other PvX games:
“And most recent PVX games, which are quite old, they still are going“
So are people really asking why I’m here? No, they aren’t. People, “elites”, want their precious game designed the way they feel will make them happy. Any design which deviates will cause them to have hurt feelings and possibly cry.
Time for cheese.
Ah yes, name calling. Not going to bother reading something written by someone who has to attempt to insult people instead of staying on point, however I feel inclined to warn you that there has been at least one casualty on this forum post already due to them being unable to stop making personal attacks due to differing opinions, @Wandering Mist can confirm
“Why even bother to sign up and participate in Ashes' forum if you don't like its PvX gameplay?”
It's definitely worth discussing. But Ashes does seem unique in this regard, in so far as PvX and player-interactions lie at the core of the game.
Still, people clearly differ in how they want this player-interactivity to look, and how they relate to problems such as random player killing or griefing.
You are legitimately the only person right now who is coming across as hysterical, emotional and irrational. Calling everybody stupid and morons isn't really helping your case either.
If I were or had called everyone stupid then you might be able to claim I’m hysterical, emotional, and irrational. The problem is I never called everyone stupid and you are free to quote me to prove I’m correct in that assertion. Please do so as my comments are available for you to quote.
The only people I call out for making stupid comments are people like you who ... make stupid comments just like the one above. Your comment goes above stupid though as it also ventures into the area of hysterical, emotional, and irrational due to your ridiculous exaggerated claim of what I said when proof of your claim being false is starring us in the face.
Lying about what someone said in a forum is another tactic I’ve seen you “elites” use.
Ah yes, name calling. Not going to bother reading something written by someone who has to attempt to insult people instead of staying on point, however I feel inclined to warn you that there has been at least one casualty on this forum post already due to them being unable to stop making personal attacks due to differing opinions, @Wandering Mist can confirm
Stop lying, you never read past my suggestion that PvE areas be included in the game. And you’re the genius who claimed that my suggesting an additional play style option for the game is “forcing players to play a certain way.”
@Dolyem, “@Moid Listen man, if you can't understand that you are trying to force players to play a certain way I don't know what to tell you.”
Again this is an utterly epically stupid take on my comments. It shows either your reading comprehension levels are so grotesquely low that you couldn’t understand what I posted or you’re intentionally lying about what I posted.
Not a single suggestion I posted would force anyone to play or play a certain way and my comments are available for you to quote to prove me right.
You are legitimately the only person right now who is coming across as hysterical, emotional and irrational. Calling everybody stupid and morons isn't really helping your case either.
If I were or had called everyone stupid then you might be able to claim I’m hysterical, emotional, and irrational. The problem is I never called everyone stupid and you are free to quote me to prove I’m correct in that assertion. Please do so as my comments are available for you to quote.
The only people I call out for making stupid comments are people like you who ... make stupid comments just like the one above. Your comment goes above stupid though as it also ventures into the area of hysterical, emotional, and irrational due to your ridiculous exaggerated claim of what I said when proof of your claim being false is starring us in the face.
Lying about what someone said in a forum is another tactic I’ve seen you “elites” use.
Ah yes, name calling. Not going to bother reading something written by someone who has to attempt to insult people instead of staying on point, however I feel inclined to warn you that there has been at least one casualty on this forum post already due to them being unable to stop making personal attacks due to differing opinions, @Wandering Mist can confirm
Stop lying, you never read past my suggestion that PvE areas be included in the game. And you’re the genius who claimed that my suggesting an additional play style option for the game is “forcing players to play a certain way.”
@Dolyem, “@Moid Listen man, if you can't understand that you are trying to force players to play a certain way I don't know what to tell you.”
Again this is an utterly epically stupid take on my comments. It shows either your reading comprehension levels are so grotesquely low that you couldn’t understand what I posted or you’re intentionally lying about what I posted.
Not a single suggestion I posted would force anyone to play or play a certain way and my comments are available for you to quote to prove me right.
I'm telling you man, you really don't want to make personal attacks. You''ll likely get tossed in forum jail. But let me explain this to you since you think this isn't a playstyle for some reason. Open world PvP and PvX is its own playstyle and genre. It is the genre of Ashes of Creation. So if you try to change it to something different(Options to opt-out of pvp for example), you are forcing your playstyle onto the game. Allowing for the option to opt out of the current playstyle completely changes the type of game that it is seeing as the game is designed for progression through both PvP, PvE, and a consistent "Risk vs Reward" mindset which includes risking getting ganked while searching for rewards. I hope this clears things up for you, but by the way you are acting I have my doubts that it will.
It's interesting how intense the disagreement around this subject is. Guess we'll have to see how Intrepid juggles these different concerns.
Pretty confident that intrepid isn't budging on the open world pvp gameplay, which is good. It's been too long since a zero-opt in pvp PvX MMO has released.
I'm telling you man, you really don't want to make personal attacks. You''ll likely get tossed in forum jail. But let me explain this to you since you think this isn't a playstyle for some reason. Open world PvP and PvX is its own playstyle and genre. It is the genre of Ashes of Creation. So if you try to change it to something different(Options to opt-out of pvp for example), you are forcing your playstyle onto the game. Allowing for the option to opt out of the current playstyle completely changes the type of game that it is seeing as the game is designed for progression through both PvP, PvE, and a consistent "Risk vs Reward" mindset which includes risking getting ganked while searching for rewards. I hope this clears things up for you, but by the way you are acting I have my doubts that it will.
You’re a broken record. Typical of an “elite”, completely incapable of understanding anything.
Adding zones to the game which are unreachable by the PvP oriented crowd has zero effect on the PvP or PvX or XyZ playstyle or genre. I never suggested any kind of flag to opt out of PvP in PvX zones. Of course you don’t know that because you simply reacted emotionally and hysterically to my post without reading. Again typical of you “elites”.
Zones which you cannot reach do not alter your play in your PvWhatever zones. All the same risk vs reward is still present in your precious PvWhatever zones. Nothing changes, nothing.
This is all very illogical and bizarre that people cannot understand this simple concept. Oh but it isn’t as I’ve seen this before. You “elites” aren’t concerned with a PvEer over in an isolated protected zone away from your PvWhatever zone. You’re real concern is with what might happen to the rewards available in those PvE zones.
You want progression and necessary item drops to be the sole function of PvWhatever, you’re afraid the developers might put some items in PvE zones. Why? Because that would force you to choose between going without certain PvE-only items or PvEing for those items.
That’s the true problem you have. You don’t want to be forced to PvE. I never suggested that players be forced to PvE but again you don’t read, you simply start whining at the first moment someone suggests anything PvE.
I wonder how many times I could reiterate that I never suggested players be forced to PvE without the “elites” comprehending it. I’m thinking the number if sky high. Some people are truly dense.
I'm telling you man, you really don't want to make personal attacks. You''ll likely get tossed in forum jail. But let me explain this to you since you think this isn't a playstyle for some reason. Open world PvP and PvX is its own playstyle and genre. It is the genre of Ashes of Creation. So if you try to change it to something different(Options to opt-out of pvp for example), you are forcing your playstyle onto the game. Allowing for the option to opt out of the current playstyle completely changes the type of game that it is seeing as the game is designed for progression through both PvP, PvE, and a consistent "Risk vs Reward" mindset which includes risking getting ganked while searching for rewards. I hope this clears things up for you, but by the way you are acting I have my doubts that it will.
You’re a broken record. Typical of an “elite”, completely incapable of understanding anything.
Adding zones to the game which are unreachable by the PvP oriented crowd has zero effect on the PvP or PvX or XyZ playstyle or genre. I never suggested any kind of flag to opt out of PvP in PvX zones. Of course you don’t know that because you simply reacted emotionally and hysterically to my post without reading. Again typical of you “elites”.
Zones which you cannot reach do not alter your play in your PvWhatever zones. All the same risk vs reward is still present in your precious PvWhatever zones. Nothing changes, nothing.
This is all very illogical and bizarre that people cannot understand this simple concept. Oh but it isn’t as I’ve seen this before. You “elites” aren’t concerned with a PvEer over in an isolated protected zone away from your PvWhatever zone. You’re real concern is with what might happen to the rewards available in those PvE zones.
You want progression and necessary item drops to be the sole function of PvWhatever, you’re afraid the developers might put some items in PvE zones. Why? Because that would force you to choose between going without certain PvE-only items or PvEing for those items.
That’s the true problem you have. You don’t want to be forced to PvE. I never suggested that players be forced to PvE but again you don’t read, you simply start whining at the first moment someone suggests anything PvE.
I wonder how many times I could reiterate that I never suggested players be forced to PvE without the “elites” comprehending it. I’m thinking the number if sky high. Some people are truly dense.
Creating a zone to do strictly PvE content without having to deal with PvP sounds an awful lot like a way to opt out of PvP... Why shouldn't they be a thing? Because its not a PvE game. The entire game is PvX, which means if you want to go do PvE content, you will still likely be involved in PvP, and vice versa. And that is the genre of the game... once you make either one opt out, it changes the game. And that isn't the vision of the game. I don't want an entirely PvP game or an entirely PvE game, I want the PvX game where I have to do both, and that's how it is being designed. So just because you only want a piece of it, doesn't mean you get to change up the way the game works. The irony is you are going on about "elites" crapping all over the PvE content, when you are blatantly wanting to draw a line between PvE and PvP content because you don't want PvP in zones where you quest and gather resources. Like come on man the hypocrisy is crazy. Anyway I am done arguing with you. I also warned you plenty of times about the insults, so if you get tossed in forum jail that's on you man.
Comments
"Those people you “elites” call care-bears pay subscriptions also and they happen to be the vast majority of gamers and thus by far the greatest revenue stream."
They can choose whether or not to play a pvp game or not, it isn't forced on them. That being said, there are plenty of pvp oriented players out there to fuel and play this game, the beauty of it though is there are also plenty of PvE players who enjoy risk vs reward in open world environments who will also gladly jump at the chance to play this game. It is PvX, so there is something for everyone, except maybe "carebears" who don't like the idea of risks.
" “elites” have problems with the care-bears having their PvE fun. It’s as if you “elites” are little tyrants and want to force everyone to play the way you want to play."
We don't want to force anyone to play something they don't want to, the irony is we don't want a game, designed for our playstyle, to be gutted and changed in a way that would force us to play the way carebears want to play... see the hypocrisy there?
"your target rich environment won’t remain target rich for long. Care-bears won’t stick around for long after getting repeatedly ganked. For some reason you “elites” don’t understand that."
I mean, what clearly is obvious, but isn't obvious to the carebear community is that this entire game is designed around things most of you don't want to play...so why are you even here? Players who enjoy the types of systems this game is implementing want likeminded players, not carebears looking to turn it into a copy of retail WoW. If you want a new Carebear MMO, go elsewhere, because this is open world PvX, not PVE. But if you stick around, accept that you will be playing a game where you can be ganked, you will be required to do pvp content, and there is no off-switch to any of it except to fight back.
This is often the first step in the "Redesign the Game for Us" playbook. In every other scenario, people complain that games suffer because they are trying to make money instead of a good game. If you want to cater to the greatest revenue stream, you'll add some P2W because whales will prop you up incredibly.
No one wants that though, so you can't fall back on this as a strong foundation for an argument.
Step 2: turning the argument around as if by design, PvE fun was supposed to be protected and anyone for open world PvP is trying to take their fun away. The truth is, often people like you are the ones coming in and trying to dictate how people can play the game.
You don't actually get to make that argument either. As an example, I don't like to gank people in the open world but I thoroughly enjoy the thrill of the possibility that I'll be ganked.
Again, threatening the longevity of the game and arguing that the game could make more money if designed a certain way. Of course it could.
But you haven't actually argued why it would make the game better. Should people who do not look for protection in guilds or groups be catered to in an open world MMO? Truly?
While the debate of "whether open world pvp is good or bad for a game" can probably go on forever and it seems neither of the for/against camp will ever be able to convince the other ... what has confused me is ...
I wonder, those of you who are against open world pvp (non-consensual included), what have brought you to Ashes, an upcoming open-world PvX MMORPG?
A lot of the safe haven features you guys' been arguing for (consensual pvp ONLY, and instanced pve safe from hostile player interference), are already available in existing major MMOs like WoW & GW2.
What are you looking for in Ashes that WoW & GW2 couldn't provide?
I heard "l337est and Carebear" three times. So, here I am.
Amazing how people like throwing these terms around, as if they are insults. Talk about being an Elitest. OMG!
Using Carebear as a defense, in a clearly stated PvP game, is really moot. If PvX is not your thing (Yes, I used that term. Clearly some do not understand it.) there are a plithora of solo RPGs for you. Don't come to a clearly stated game, and want changes, like a troll.
Lastly, don't speak for a community with your single voice. You don't speak for me. I'm leetest like that.
Edit: And quit making us Carebears look bad. It only makes "your" argument look bad for "us".
It’s interesting how defensive the “elites” here are about their game. They read into my post that I want to force people to play or force people to play a specific way. I never suggested that.
You “elites” feel as though if people have an option to PvE in a PvP-free zone that will disrupt your game which is precisely what I was getting at in the first place. Someone PvEing where you cannot gank them doesn’t diminish your game in any way. Good luck getting through to you.
Giving others an option is clearly forcing a different play style on you. Why do the “elites” have so much difficultly understanding how stupid that statement is?
“Elites” want it your way, you want a pure game and that’s the only acceptable design. A design which gives people options pollutes your precious game. The cries of, “there are already other games out there with designs like that” made me reach for the cheese.
One even asked why people who would be accepting of a non-PvX design would even be here when there are so many other available options. I suppose the person asking that question found games without imperfections. Why aren’t we all playing Doom or Chess?
I knew when I posted the “elites” would be up in arms. I’ve been around long enough to know a bit about PvP “elites”. Despite that experience it’s still pretty strange to see the inevitable nonsensical irrational replies.
The one thing I’ll never be able to understand is the fact that the “elites” refuse to accept the fact that a PvX game will be a very short lived game. It has been tried before and while the servers attract attention at launch they always die rapidly. The same thing will happen with AoC if the developers go that direction because designing a system to prevent grief-ganking is extraordinarily difficult to get right, so much so that the feat has never been accomplished to date.
Dude i really dont know who are you calling elites here
There are much more WOW clones that failed miserably, than there are PVX games. And most recent PVX games, which are quite old, they still are going, some of them not as well as they should have been, but simply due to P2W and not the fact that its PVX
Ok this is what I have left after attempting to filter out the emotion-loaded junk, name-calling fillers, and out-of-scope arguments unrelated to mmorpg from your post. Please try to be concise and to the point next time, nobody cares about your cheese.
Anyway, let me try to get this right ... So the imperfections in other existing mmorpgs, which match your playstyle, have motivated you to look for another potentially less imperfect game. But instead of finding a new game that suits you, your search has led you to Ashes, an upcoming open world PvX mmorpg that does not match your playstyle ... ? Weird enough.
If I was in your situation, I would've just moved on to continue my hunt for the ideal game. But instead, you've signed up for an Intrepid account, found a flaming thread on the forum which happened to be about open pvp, dropped your own facts, and labeled people whom you disagreed with as "elites" or "tyrants". Why? To ... enlighten everyone and make them see things your way?? I guess?
That's what I'm confused and curious about. What have brought you (and others) to Ashes? Why even bother to sign up and participate in Ashes' forum if you don't like its PvX gameplay?
Are you trying to influence ppl (devs included), potentially changing Ashes' gameplay, so it would fit your style? That makes this statement ... ... invalid, because now you ARE trying to force many of us to either leave or play a game that would be vastly different from what has originally brought us here.
Or are you sincerely worried about the future of Ashes and Intrepid? Because based on your own facts all PvX mmorpg will rapidly die out after launch? Well in that case don't waste your time on the forums, by all means please contact the Intrepid team directly. They may thank you for enlightening them and saving them from an impending disaster.
That's a good point. There is already an abundance of MMOs who cater heavily to this themepark audience, whereas most big PvP games are either MOBAs, FPS or Battle Royale.
If a PvP MMO could appeal to the latter audience, that'd be a huge influx of players.
I’m now being told by people who clearly aren’t much more conscious than a rock that giving people options in a game is “trying to force players to play a certain way”.
Even *almost* the dumbest people amongst us know how stupid such a statement is. Yeah, I hurt someone’s feelings by pointing that out. The truth hurts. Hey, fix it, stop being stupid, it isn’t hard.
I understood before I made my original post that you “elites” would not want to hear dissenting opinions. You should consider your hysterical emotional irrational responses and the ridiculous things it causes you to say just like the above. Yes, I know you won’t as you are slaves to your emotions.
Then we get the moronic questions.
“Why even bother to sign up and participate in Ashes' forum if you don't like its PvX gameplay?”
Has AoC been released yet? Who’s played it so far? I’ll be the first to admit that I have been unable to play a game which hasn’t released yet. Pretty shocking huh?
This does help explain things though. Clearly the people I’m “discussing” this with aren’t all there. The rest of the post is as nonsensical as the question.
The not so interesting observation is the constant questions about why us non-purists are even doing here, what brought us here, why are we staying here, etc. The not at all subtle suggestion is that we should leave rather than speaking. Those attempts to shut down speech is tyrannical. It’s typical of the “elitists” I’ve encountered in the past and not at all surprising to me.
In that vein, not ironically, people asking “why we are here” blindly miss their supporters who clearly state there are other PvX games:
“And most recent PVX games, which are quite old, they still are going“
So are people really asking why I’m here? No, they aren’t. People, “elites”, want their precious game designed the way they feel will make them happy. Any design which deviates will cause them to have hurt feelings and possibly cry.
Time for cheese.
Yeah I have no idea what you are going on about to be honest. The games being designed in the devs vision and that includes all the things you are arguing against. We want the game to stay on track the way it is and not change the entire vision of the game to cater to certain types of players.
You are legitimately the only person right now who is coming across as hysterical, emotional and irrational. Calling everybody stupid and morons isn't really helping your case either.
Nothing dies on the forums
Ah yes, name calling. Not going to bother reading something written by someone who has to attempt to insult people instead of staying on point, however I feel inclined to warn you that there has been at least one casualty on this forum post already due to them being unable to stop making personal attacks due to differing opinions, @Wandering Mist can confirm
It's definitely worth discussing. But Ashes does seem unique in this regard, in so far as PvX and player-interactions lie at the core of the game.
Still, people clearly differ in how they want this player-interactivity to look, and how they relate to problems such as random player killing or griefing.
The only people I call out for making stupid comments are people like you who ... make stupid comments just like the one above. Your comment goes above stupid though as it also ventures into the area of hysterical, emotional, and irrational due to your ridiculous exaggerated claim of what I said when proof of your claim being false is starring us in the face.
Lying about what someone said in a forum is another tactic I’ve seen you “elites” use. Stop lying, you never read past my suggestion that PvE areas be included in the game. And you’re the genius who claimed that my suggesting an additional play style option for the game is “forcing players to play a certain way.”
@Dolyem, “@Moid Listen man, if you can't understand that you are trying to force players to play a certain way I don't know what to tell you.”
Again this is an utterly epically stupid take on my comments. It shows either your reading comprehension levels are so grotesquely low that you couldn’t understand what I posted or you’re intentionally lying about what I posted.
Not a single suggestion I posted would force anyone to play or play a certain way and my comments are available for you to quote to prove me right.
I'm telling you man, you really don't want to make personal attacks. You''ll likely get tossed in forum jail. But let me explain this to you since you think this isn't a playstyle for some reason. Open world PvP and PvX is its own playstyle and genre. It is the genre of Ashes of Creation. So if you try to change it to something different(Options to opt-out of pvp for example), you are forcing your playstyle onto the game. Allowing for the option to opt out of the current playstyle completely changes the type of game that it is seeing as the game is designed for progression through both PvP, PvE, and a consistent "Risk vs Reward" mindset which includes risking getting ganked while searching for rewards. I hope this clears things up for you, but by the way you are acting I have my doubts that it will.
Pretty confident that intrepid isn't budging on the open world pvp gameplay, which is good. It's been too long since a zero-opt in pvp PvX MMO has released.
Adding zones to the game which are unreachable by the PvP oriented crowd has zero effect on the PvP or PvX or XyZ playstyle or genre. I never suggested any kind of flag to opt out of PvP in PvX zones. Of course you don’t know that because you simply reacted emotionally and hysterically to my post without reading. Again typical of you “elites”.
Zones which you cannot reach do not alter your play in your PvWhatever zones. All the same risk vs reward is still present in your precious PvWhatever zones. Nothing changes, nothing.
This is all very illogical and bizarre that people cannot understand this simple concept. Oh but it isn’t as I’ve seen this before. You “elites” aren’t concerned with a PvEer over in an isolated protected zone away from your PvWhatever zone. You’re real concern is with what might happen to the rewards available in those PvE zones.
You want progression and necessary item drops to be the sole function of PvWhatever, you’re afraid the developers might put some items in PvE zones. Why? Because that would force you to choose between going without certain PvE-only items or PvEing for those items.
That’s the true problem you have. You don’t want to be forced to PvE. I never suggested that players be forced to PvE but again you don’t read, you simply start whining at the first moment someone suggests anything PvE.
I wonder how many times I could reiterate that I never suggested players be forced to PvE without the “elites” comprehending it. I’m thinking the number if sky high. Some people are truly dense.
Creating a zone to do strictly PvE content without having to deal with PvP sounds an awful lot like a way to opt out of PvP... Why shouldn't they be a thing? Because its not a PvE game. The entire game is PvX, which means if you want to go do PvE content, you will still likely be involved in PvP, and vice versa. And that is the genre of the game... once you make either one opt out, it changes the game. And that isn't the vision of the game. I don't want an entirely PvP game or an entirely PvE game, I want the PvX game where I have to do both, and that's how it is being designed. So just because you only want a piece of it, doesn't mean you get to change up the way the game works. The irony is you are going on about "elites" crapping all over the PvE content, when you are blatantly wanting to draw a line between PvE and PvP content because you don't want PvP in zones where you quest and gather resources. Like come on man the hypocrisy is crazy. Anyway I am done arguing with you. I also warned you plenty of times about the insults, so if you get tossed in forum jail that's on you man.