Offended by an online argument? Don't lump me in with you guys.
Players have gotten way better at circumventing in game systems over the years. If you think that an old system like L2's karma system, that was already not adequate enough for its time, is going to work in today's time, then you must be dreaming.
My base argument still stands. The corruption system needs more polish.
Also, its just amusing to see people use the term "carebear" so frequently. In my experience, its precisely these kinds of people that end up crying in the end. Guess we'll have to wait and see.
Don't worry. They won't gut this game. The creative director has a vision and it's based off L2 and Archeage, 2 games chock full of PvP.
In which case they will have a small niche player base just like those other two games. Pity [/quote]
Because it was the pvp system that caused those games to have those small player bases.... ok
I also don't see how it's a pity if a game has a smaller player base. Does every game have to be mainstream? is that good for the genre?[/quote]
The guy has money, and looks like he's doing this because he wants a good mmorpg, not because of making quick buck. Wow is really popular and considered mainstream, but its catered for people who like safe environment. Aoc is more hardcore game, so it will cater to people who dont play mmos like wow
I foresee Intrepid having a "Corruption" kill counter. So, if you attack a player, and they die to a mob (say 30 min later), you get flagged with Corruption (eg. like tagging a mob and later someone kills it, you get reward. Suprise!). Further punishing reds. Reason I never chimed in, on this, it's default in my brain, for some stupid reason. Just makes sense to me. Perhaps that's a discussion.
Wow, very bad idea...getting pk for flagging on someone? and even after 30 minutes? Sorry dude, but thats worst idea I have ever heard in this thread. Imagine someone flags on you, you call ur buddies, the go killyourself with a mob, so he gets pk, your buddies kill him, take his shit... very bad idea. You all should stop worrying, the corruption system as it was explained will work very well in preventing constant low lvl griefing, while not restricting players actions.
definitely a bad idea for 30 minutes. But like I was saying previously, it should basically be within seconds not minutes. For example if you're attacked by someone but not killed by them, maybe if you die to a mob within 15 seconds of being attacked by another player, that player is marked with the proper corruption if you didn't attack them. Just keeps the corruption system viable in regards to the issue of people griefing by keeping a player at low health without killing them so they can't do content.
If you want to make the best MMO ever made like Steven wants to, you have to appeal to everyone, or at least to the large majority of the playerbase. If you don't have challenging PvE content, you won't. That's because, believe it or not, the majority of MMO players out there want good PvE, hence why WoW and FF14 are the most successful MMOs out there.
If you want to make the best MMO ever made like Steven wants to, you have to appeal to everyone, or at least to the large majority of the playerbase. If you don't have challenging PvE content, you won't. That's because, believe it or not, the majority of MMO players out there want good PvE, hence why WoW and FF14 are the most successful MMOs out there.
Just PvPvE content won't do the trick.
To be honest I would credit most of WoWs success to being innovative in the beginning and causing everyone to invest so much time within their game that even after their golden years with TBC and WotLK people keep playing just because if they stop then all of their time from previous expansions was for nothing. Not to say everything they did since then was wrong, but most of the content they pumped out since Wrath has been garbage painted pretty. Only exception I would say would be Legion but Ironically that was supposed to be the end of WoW right after WotLK and then they were going to move on to TITAN. But instead they used a bunch of filler crap for their storyline to make more money after scrapping TITAN. Game is nothing but a time-sink and a carrot on a stick convincing you its worth sticking around for that new mount or achievment locked behind days of in game time.
If you want to make the best MMO ever made like Steven wants to, you have to appeal to everyone, or at least to the large majority of the playerbase. If you don't have challenging PvE content, you won't. That's because, believe it or not, the majority of MMO players out there want good PvE, hence why WoW and FF14 are the most successful MMOs out there.
Just PvPvE content won't do the trick.
Hence why those players should stick to WOW and FF14. and why competing with the by introducing same formula is very hard.
I don't know how this game will turn out to be, but from what i know about it now, its not about PVP or PVE, so its on equal terms of if you dont like PVP, dont play this game, if you dont like PVE dont play this game.
They are not trying to make the best MMO ever made. They are trying to make a good mmo, with solid old school mechanics, sutch as risk vs revard, player interaction, not restricting player actions, etc. Not some bull shit modern mmo. Jeez in BDO you didnt even have player to player trade available... how fucked up is that in an MMORPG game?
If you want to make the best MMO ever made like Steven wants to, you have to appeal to everyone, or at least to the large majority of the playerbase. If you don't have challenging PvE content, you won't. That's because, believe it or not, the majority of MMO players out there want good PvE, hence why WoW and FF14 are the most successful MMOs out there.
Just PvPvE content won't do the trick.
To be honest I would credit most of WoWs success to being innovative in the beginning and causing everyone to invest so much time within their game that even after their golden years with TBC and WotLK people keep playing just because if they stop then all of their time from previous expansions was for nothing. Not to say everything they did since then was wrong, but most of the content they pumped out since Wrath has been garbage painted pretty. Only exception I would say would be Legion but Ironically that was supposed to be the end of WoW right after WotLK and then they were going to move on to TITAN. But instead they used a bunch of filler crap for their storyline to make more money after scrapping TITAN. Game is nothing but a time-sink and a carrot on a stick convincing you its worth sticking around for that new mount or achievment locked behind days of in game time.
Not really sure where was the innovation though. Their biggest inovation was removing any penalties that players might suffer, making easy accessible content for everyone, hence everyone having a fun time at all times. With good marketing campain and popular background story coming from strategy games it became mainstream. And yes i agree it is a carrot on a stick type of thing, its kind of like a episodic coop game, you play through an expansion with your buddies, then wait for next one, then next one, etc...
Bro, you are even more stupider that I thought. Please don't type. The only thing you're good at, is misunderstanding others when their opinion differs from yours. I don't see a point in having a civil discussion with you, as you're not worth the time.
Bro, you are even more stupider that I thought. Please don't type. The only thing you're good at, is misunderstanding others when their opinion differs from yours. I don't see a point in having a civil discussion with you, as you're not worth the time.
Yes, true, hard to have a discussion with people who resort to name calling. Gj just showed ur maturity level.
Im quite worried about the game beeing so based on all the hard content in open dungeons beeing PvP centric.
Only having acces to certain areas if your a part of a zerg guild is not really that great mechanics.
It forces you to be part of that guild or be locked out.
Im quite worried about the game beeing so based on all the hard content in open dungeons beeing PvP centric.
Only having acces to certain areas if your a part of a zerg guild is not really that great mechanics.
It forces you to be part of that guild or be locked out.
well its an mmo, means other people are playing too, and teamwork will always have advantage over solo guy. Also cuz ita mmo, content is designed for groups of people, or either join a guild or find few friends, cuz playing with not interacting with people will be impossible
Don't worry. They won't gut this game. The creative director has a vision and it's based off L2 and Archeage, 2 games chock full of PvP.[/quote]
In which case they will have a small niche player base just like those other two games. Pity [/quote]
L2 was one of the most played mmorpgs in Korea and Japan for a very long time and L1, which has the same pvp system, is still one of the top played mmorpgs in korea.
The NA and EU official servers had a big amount of players too and even now the private community is big.
If you want to make the best MMO ever made like Steven wants to, you have to appeal to everyone, or at least to the large majority of the playerbase. If you don't have challenging PvE content, you won't. That's because, believe it or not, the majority of MMO players out there want good PvE, hence why WoW and FF14 are the most successful MMOs out there.
Just PvPvE content won't do the trick.
This guy is an expert on MMO design, I'm not sure why he doesn't go create his own since he knows all the "best" secrets to building them... hint: they all revolve around PVE guys really hard super challenging PvE that no one can stop you from doing and your character gets really shiny cool looking amazing named items.
Tyrantor
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
2
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If you want to make the best MMO ever made like Steven wants to, you have to appeal to everyone, or at least to the large majority of the playerbase. If you don't have challenging PvE content, you won't. That's because, believe it or not, the majority of MMO players out there want good PvE, hence why WoW and FF14 are the most successful MMOs out there.
Just PvPvE content won't do the trick.
When did Steven say he wanted to make the best MMO?
From what I know, that isn't the goal here. I've heard him in person tell someone the goal is not to be a wow killer. Yes, I'm sure he wants his game to become popular but it's no longer really his game if he changes to whatever you perceive will be popular.
Not sure who thinks that L2 had a "niche" player base, but it kinda shows how little they know/knew about the game.
It had between 1 and up to 2.5 Million active monthly subs during its peak times.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The only "justice" I care about is players having enough good sportsmanship to not grief other players with non-consensual PvP.
Other players cannot perform "justice" against assholes who lack good sportsmanship.
We will have to see whether the Corruption system provides enough "justice" that it's a sufficient deterrent for non-consensual PvP.
The only "justice" I care about is players having enough good sportsmanship to not grief other players with non-consensual PvP.
Other players cannot perform "justice" against assholes who lack good sportsmanship.
We will have to see whether the Corruption system provides enough "justice" that it's a sufficient deterrent for non-consensual PvP.
Non consensual pvp will happen, its a fact. But not to the extent where everyone is running around and one shotting newbies ever 2 minutes.
Imagine being so afraid of open world PVP you spend hours of your day making up theoretical arguments about how you might feel bullied in an open world leveling scenario.
In a game where cities can be utterly destroyed and burned to the ground...
This thread is nothing more than a Care Bear psyop.
I may be a Carebear, but I do have fangs, and can defend my self. 👹
But, if you want, we can join forces against %t. 😜
3
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Hi all. As usual the topic of corruption brings out the passion in a lot of people, but I'd like to remind you all that petty name-calling and personal insults are NOT wanted here. Attack the arguments, not the players behind them.
As with a lot of things in game design, it is almost impossible to create a system that is completely without exploitation. There will ALWAYS be a way to game the system, no matter how many precautions the developers put in place.
When it comes to the corruption system, I personally believe what is down on paper has the best chance of succeeding, but of course we will have to look at it closely during testing.
well its an mmo, means other people are playing too, and teamwork will always have advantage over solo guy. Also cuz ita mmo, content is designed for groups of people, or either join a guild or find few friends, cuz playing with not interacting with people will be impossible
Problem isnt 1v10 but rather your organized group of 20 vs 100 mindless zerg players.
If you have been fighting an enemy for 45 minutes and are at 10% and some zerg guild just runs in and stomps you...yea that can get quite gamebreaking for most players.
Im a PvPer myself but not all PvP content is good PvP content
well its an mmo, means other people are playing too, and teamwork will always have advantage over solo guy. Also cuz ita mmo, content is designed for groups of people, or either join a guild or find few friends, cuz playing with not interacting with people will be impossible
Problem isnt 1v10 but rather your organized group of 20 vs 100 mindless zerg players.
If you have been fighting an enemy for 45 minutes and are at 10% and some zerg guild just runs in and stomps you...yea that can get quite gamebreaking for most players.
Im a PvPer myself but not all PvP content is good PvP content
I haven't followed the thread in a bit, so this might have been an ongoing discussion, but
How is this related in any way shape or form to the topic of this thread ("Random player killing")?
Seems like what you are talking about is the exact opposite from random.
well its an mmo, means other people are playing too, and teamwork will always have advantage over solo guy. Also cuz ita mmo, content is designed for groups of people, or either join a guild or find few friends, cuz playing with not interacting with people will be impossible
Problem isnt 1v10 but rather your organized group of 20 vs 100 mindless zerg players.
If you have been fighting an enemy for 45 minutes and are at 10% and some zerg guild just runs in and stomps you...yea that can get quite gamebreaking for most players.
Im a PvPer myself but not all PvP content is good PvP content
Well, that will definitely happen to some people, that means you need to be quicker, better eq or bigger group to take down boss faster. Another point to keep in mind is that if 20 man raid can take that raid in 1 hour, having 100 people zerg going to take that raid is first logistically hard, with no teleports etc, 2nd there Imagine dividing loot between 20 people and between 100 people. I doubt many players will be happy to stay in that zerg for ages without ever getting anything out of it.
So let me get this straight. You want players to rely on OTHER people to come and help them against the griefer? How exactly are they going to HELP you? That guy isn't killing you, he is just attacking you. Why would somebody else come and kill him for you, just to gain corruption?
Your first 2 points does not solve the problem. None of them can help you, and even if they could, you shouldn't let counter measures for griefing rely on player help, as that is an inconsistent variable.
As for your third one, yes you could fight back. But the problem is, that guy is 10 levels above you. So whilst you may damage him, it won't be by much. Also, now if he kills you, he won't gain corruption and he gains a portion of your loot as well. You also get re-spawned at a re-spawn point, which may be far away from where you were questing. So its going to take you a long time to get back there. He was griefing you and now he got rewarded for it because you fought back. So there goes your third point as well.
Oh my bad, I didn't know you didn't know how the flagging system works. So when a player attacks a non-combatant (green) or combatant (purple), they become a combatant (purple). A player only becomes corrupted (red) when they kill a non-combatant (green). So when the lvl 20 attacks the lvl 10, the lvl 20 becomes purple. If someone comes along to help the lvl 10 kill the lvl 20, they will only become purple because the lvl 20 is purple, not green.
They solve the problem in a MMO that requires players to socialize and work together... like AoC.
But we don't know if the other guy gains corruption or not. If he does then why would he help you? The lvl20 guy didn't attack him he just attacked the lvl10 guy.
Also you miss my point. Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it even if players are not online to help you at that time.
I am not missing your point, your point just isn't valid in an mmorpg that heavily promotes community interaction and guilds.
I'll say it again. You missed my point @Xyls . Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it, even if players are not online/willing to help you at that time. Also, not everyone has friends and guilds when they start playing a game. So its foolish to rely on player help to solve things like griefing; especially when it can have a huge negative impact on a new player's experience.
I don't know what to tell you, in these types of games (sandbox, sand-park) with player created content, relying on others is the ultimate solution and is the best solution. The corruption system is the back up for when you can't get others.
Relying on other players for in game systems is the way to go. But relying on other players to solve things that can impact a player's fundamental experience with the game isn't the way to go. The reason why I say that is because it isn't as consistent or as efficient as a pre-built system that solves such kinds of problems.
Players are an inconsistent variable. When it comes to important things like griefing, you cannot rely on such an inconsistent variable to solve the problem. Not EVERYTHING has to be connected to players. Its like asking players to punish those that get reported, instead of having them be punished by Intrepid themselves.
Whilst your idea does provide a social element to the game, it shouldn't be the main way to solve griefing.
You would be correct if this game was a straight theme-park like WoW, but it isn't.
Jesus. Stop relating EVERYTHING with WoW. Griefing should be punished, whether its in AoC or if its in WoW.
All I'm saying is that it should be CONSISTENTLY punished, something that "player help" cannot do.
I dont agree that greefing should be punished in sense of some system that forbids griefing, it just should have cencequences, and lineage system did good job at that, it didnt limit people, but made made griefing very punishing without limiting them, so you could do it, but it was not worth it
Lmao. Yea sure, no low level griefing ever occured in L2. The karma system was more than enough to prevent that right?
I never said that griefing should be forbidden. All I said is that players who grief others should face severe in-game consequences. These consequences cannot be consistently imposed upon griefers by other players. Only a built in system can do that.
Ofcourse it occured, so what? but it was punishable and it wasn't often and you had ways to deal with it. If you want safe space, where big bad griefer cant catch you, best option is to play games without pvp at all, like WOW or other bullshit carebear mmo, where only pvp is when two players mutually negotiate the terms and conditions of their duel, then one proposes and other accepts the invitation to throw down, after which they bid good day to each other and go on on their happy life fishing or weaving or knitting or whatever the f they do in hello kitty island adventure...
What kind of system do you have in mind, that doesnt forbid or limit actions of player, while also punishing griefing? also what do you consider griefing?
You scary bro. If you do not consent it is not player vs player. It is player vs victim. Your attitude is exactly why open world/non consensual pvp always fails or becomes so toxic only the bad guys are left running around whacking each other for no reason.
Comments
Offended by an online argument? Don't lump me in with you guys.
Players have gotten way better at circumventing in game systems over the years. If you think that an old system like L2's karma system, that was already not adequate enough for its time, is going to work in today's time, then you must be dreaming.
My base argument still stands. The corruption system needs more polish.
Also, its just amusing to see people use the term "carebear" so frequently. In my experience, its precisely these kinds of people that end up crying in the end. Guess we'll have to wait and see.
Don't worry. They won't gut this game. The creative director has a vision and it's based off L2 and Archeage, 2 games chock full of PvP.[/quote]
In which case they will have a small niche player base just like those other two games. Pity
Because it was the pvp system that caused those games to have those small player bases.... ok
I also don't see how it's a pity if a game has a smaller player base. Does every game have to be mainstream? is that good for the genre?
In which case they will have a small niche player base just like those other two games. Pity [/quote]
Because it was the pvp system that caused those games to have those small player bases.... ok
I also don't see how it's a pity if a game has a smaller player base. Does every game have to be mainstream? is that good for the genre?[/quote]
The guy has money, and looks like he's doing this because he wants a good mmorpg, not because of making quick buck. Wow is really popular and considered mainstream, but its catered for people who like safe environment. Aoc is more hardcore game, so it will cater to people who dont play mmos like wow
definitely a bad idea for 30 minutes. But like I was saying previously, it should basically be within seconds not minutes. For example if you're attacked by someone but not killed by them, maybe if you die to a mob within 15 seconds of being attacked by another player, that player is marked with the proper corruption if you didn't attack them. Just keeps the corruption system viable in regards to the issue of people griefing by keeping a player at low health without killing them so they can't do content.
@Bricktop
@Mojottv
If you want to make the best MMO ever made like Steven wants to, you have to appeal to everyone, or at least to the large majority of the playerbase. If you don't have challenging PvE content, you won't. That's because, believe it or not, the majority of MMO players out there want good PvE, hence why WoW and FF14 are the most successful MMOs out there.
Just PvPvE content won't do the trick.
To be honest I would credit most of WoWs success to being innovative in the beginning and causing everyone to invest so much time within their game that even after their golden years with TBC and WotLK people keep playing just because if they stop then all of their time from previous expansions was for nothing. Not to say everything they did since then was wrong, but most of the content they pumped out since Wrath has been garbage painted pretty. Only exception I would say would be Legion but Ironically that was supposed to be the end of WoW right after WotLK and then they were going to move on to TITAN. But instead they used a bunch of filler crap for their storyline to make more money after scrapping TITAN. Game is nothing but a time-sink and a carrot on a stick convincing you its worth sticking around for that new mount or achievment locked behind days of in game time.
Hence why those players should stick to WOW and FF14. and why competing with the by introducing same formula is very hard.
I don't know how this game will turn out to be, but from what i know about it now, its not about PVP or PVE, so its on equal terms of if you dont like PVP, dont play this game, if you dont like PVE dont play this game.
They are not trying to make the best MMO ever made. They are trying to make a good mmo, with solid old school mechanics, sutch as risk vs revard, player interaction, not restricting player actions, etc. Not some bull shit modern mmo. Jeez in BDO you didnt even have player to player trade available... how fucked up is that in an MMORPG game?
Not really sure where was the innovation though. Their biggest inovation was removing any penalties that players might suffer, making easy accessible content for everyone, hence everyone having a fun time at all times. With good marketing campain and popular background story coming from strategy games it became mainstream. And yes i agree it is a carrot on a stick type of thing, its kind of like a episodic coop game, you play through an expansion with your buddies, then wait for next one, then next one, etc...
Bro, you are even more stupider that I thought. Please don't type. The only thing you're good at, is misunderstanding others when their opinion differs from yours. I don't see a point in having a civil discussion with you, as you're not worth the time.
Yes, true, hard to have a discussion with people who resort to name calling. Gj just showed ur maturity level.
Only having acces to certain areas if your a part of a zerg guild is not really that great mechanics.
It forces you to be part of that guild or be locked out.
0dbea148-8cb8-4711-ba90-eb0864e93b5f
well its an mmo, means other people are playing too, and teamwork will always have advantage over solo guy. Also cuz ita mmo, content is designed for groups of people, or either join a guild or find few friends, cuz playing with not interacting with people will be impossible
Don't worry. They won't gut this game. The creative director has a vision and it's based off L2 and Archeage, 2 games chock full of PvP.[/quote]
In which case they will have a small niche player base just like those other two games. Pity [/quote]
L2 was one of the most played mmorpgs in Korea and Japan for a very long time and L1, which has the same pvp system, is still one of the top played mmorpgs in korea.
The NA and EU official servers had a big amount of players too and even now the private community is big.
This guy is an expert on MMO design, I'm not sure why he doesn't go create his own since he knows all the "best" secrets to building them... hint: they all revolve around PVE guys really hard super challenging PvE that no one can stop you from doing and your character gets really shiny cool looking amazing named items.
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
When did Steven say he wanted to make the best MMO?
From what I know, that isn't the goal here. I've heard him in person tell someone the goal is not to be a wow killer. Yes, I'm sure he wants his game to become popular but it's no longer really his game if he changes to whatever you perceive will be popular.
To all Wow fanboys... PVE killers
It had between 1 and up to 2.5 Million active monthly subs during its peak times.
Other players cannot perform "justice" against assholes who lack good sportsmanship.
We will have to see whether the Corruption system provides enough "justice" that it's a sufficient deterrent for non-consensual PvP.
Non consensual pvp will happen, its a fact. But not to the extent where everyone is running around and one shotting newbies ever 2 minutes.
https://www.businessinsider.com/the-11-top-grossing-video-games-of-all-time-2015-8?r=US&IR=T#7-lineage-series-pc-1998--57-billion-5
NR 7. Keep in mind its was not mainstream game, didnt have well known franchise name as warcraft, nor had huge marketing in west.
In a game where cities can be utterly destroyed and burned to the ground...
This thread is nothing more than a Care Bear psyop.
It's ok we can still be friends. Let me know if the meanies pick on you. Any excuse to PVP is a good one.
I may be a Carebear, but I do have fangs, and can defend my self. 👹
But, if you want, we can join forces against %t. 😜
As with a lot of things in game design, it is almost impossible to create a system that is completely without exploitation. There will ALWAYS be a way to game the system, no matter how many precautions the developers put in place.
When it comes to the corruption system, I personally believe what is down on paper has the best chance of succeeding, but of course we will have to look at it closely during testing.
Problem isnt 1v10 but rather your organized group of 20 vs 100 mindless zerg players.
If you have been fighting an enemy for 45 minutes and are at 10% and some zerg guild just runs in and stomps you...yea that can get quite gamebreaking for most players.
Im a PvPer myself but not all PvP content is good PvP content
0dbea148-8cb8-4711-ba90-eb0864e93b5f
I haven't followed the thread in a bit, so this might have been an ongoing discussion, but
How is this related in any way shape or form to the topic of this thread ("Random player killing")?
Seems like what you are talking about is the exact opposite from random.
Well, that will definitely happen to some people, that means you need to be quicker, better eq or bigger group to take down boss faster. Another point to keep in mind is that if 20 man raid can take that raid in 1 hour, having 100 people zerg going to take that raid is first logistically hard, with no teleports etc, 2nd there Imagine dividing loot between 20 people and between 100 people. I doubt many players will be happy to stay in that zerg for ages without ever getting anything out of it.
You scary bro. If you do not consent it is not player vs player. It is player vs victim. Your attitude is exactly why open world/non consensual pvp always fails or becomes so toxic only the bad guys are left running around whacking each other for no reason.