Dealing with random player killing in an open-world PvP MMO.

For such an ambitious player-driven MMO as Ashes, the presence of random player killing (RPK) poses a challenge.
How do you allow for player agency while protecting new / weak players?

On one hand, giving players the agency to dish out justice in blood makes the world much more interactive and unpredictable, as your reputation and behavior may have dire consequences.

However, the challenge is that this level of PvP-interactivity, typically also gives rise to RPKs. Some of which intentionally grief, and others who just PvP indiscriminately.

The corruption system is already a great safety mechanism against this. However, with player-interaction at the heart of Ashes it would be great to see additional counter-RPK mechanisms that are driven by the players themselves.
Bounty hunters as planned, are a great first step.

However, bounty hunting only taps into monetary motivation. It'd be great to provide tools by which guilds and players may establish a reputation of benevolence and fairness. If Newbie Joe can report a RPK or griefer to the local guild, then it puts justice back into the hands of players. If the game tracks and incentivizes such player-driven justice, then guilds may want their territory to garner a reputation as a safe haven with just proceedings.

If Anti-PKing or peacekeeping is made worthwhile in this sense, we'll be encouraging the community to respond to griefing or bad behavior organically.

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Comments

Vyraka

To say that I can't find the words is misleading. I can, but I think it would be a waste of my time. @CaptnChuck clearly has a narrow vision of certain people and what they have to say.
I believe @Xlys is right in Chuck needing to take a break.

CaptnChuck

Xyls wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

If a level 50 wants to follow around a level 30 and smack him for 4 hours and keep him at 10% HP, that's the biggest waste of life I have ever heard of, but also his prerogative. Just because it isn't fun for you doesn't mean it should be gotten rid of. Why do you get to dictate how that person has fun in an open world MMO?

Yea my bad @Bricktop . I'm sure that that is a FUN experience for other people. I'm the ONLY one who won't enjoy that.

Jesus, what kind of people am I talking with. It feels like I'm talking to children.

Some people ENJOY ruining a person's experience. It isn't "wasting time to them". They enjoy the other person's sadness/dissapointment/anger. I can't believe that you think that that's ok and should be allowed in game. I vehemently disagree with you. Killing players is fine, but continuous griefing? Hell no.

Yes they do, and it's all just part of the open world experience to me chucky.

Listen brickhead, it ain't. Just because the game is open world, it shouldn't support negative behavior like that.

And guess what? It won't. This situation that I suggested, will be addressed by Intrepid and won't be left to be dealt with by players. I'll PM you then to see your reaction. Can't wait.

oh man, best part of this pvp system, is that if run in into people like you ingame, i will be able to grief your ass till you decide to take a break or stay in town making furniture n shit....wouldnt even care if i drop my shit...

He's the type of person that won't take a break or try to solve his own problems... He will run to the forums and make 50 whine posts about it and demand IS solve the issues for him the way he wants them solved.

@Xyls

What? Literally my last post discussed a problem and ways to solve it. I can't come up with solutions for EVERYTHING. I merely stated a workaround. I didn't have a definitive way to solve it without sacrificing certain aspects of PvP. If I do come up with one though, I'll tell you.

And trust me, it will be way better than the bs that you came up with.

CaptnChuck

@bigepeen

I mean, I was the first one to say that giving corruption when you attack is not the best idea.

Also yes, maybe not you, but the rest of them thought that by griefing I was referring to random PKing and not the abuse that I mentioned above. It clearly showed in their replies.

CaptnChuck

Mojottv wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

If a level 50 wants to follow around a level 30 and smack him for 4 hours and keep him at 10% HP, that's the biggest waste of life I have ever heard of, but also his prerogative. Just because it isn't fun for you doesn't mean it should be gotten rid of. Why do you get to dictate how that person has fun in an open world MMO?

Yea my bad @Bricktop . I'm sure that that is a FUN experience for other people. I'm the ONLY one who won't enjoy that.

Jesus, what kind of people am I talking with. It feels like I'm talking to children.

Some people ENJOY ruining a person's experience. It isn't "wasting time to them". They enjoy the other person's sadness/dissapointment/anger. I can't believe that you think that that's ok and should be allowed in game. I vehemently disagree with you. Killing players is fine, but continuous griefing? Hell no.

Yes they do, and it's all just part of the open world experience to me chucky.

Listen brickhead, it ain't. Just because the game is open world, it shouldn't support negative behavior like that.

And guess what? It won't. This situation that I suggested, will be addressed by Intrepid and won't be left to be dealt with by players. I'll PM you then to see your reaction. Can't wait.

oh man, best part of this pvp system, is that if run in into people like you ingame, i will be able to grief your ass till you decide to take a break or stay in town making furniture n shit....wouldnt even care if i drop my shit...

@Mojottv

What? People like you should just stick to talking without comprehending. When it comes to actual PvP, I'll murder you.

CaptnChuck

Vyraka wrote: »

To say that I can't find the words is misleading. I can, but I think it would be a waste of my time. @CaptnChuck clearly has a narrow vision of certain people and what they have to say.
I believe @Xlys is right in Chuck needing to take a break.

@Vyraka

You should prob re-word your reply to "I didn't understand the context of @CaptnChuck 's replies, but I'm not going to admit it. Instead I'm going to say that its a waste of my time in order to avoid saying that I was wrong, and that I didn't know that he wasn't referring to PKing and was instead referring to a particular situation that circumvented the corruption system".

There you go, fixed it for you.

CaptnChuck

@Tyrantor

Sorry man, I'm not even gonna read your reply. Its prob just some weak insult or something.

I'm never going to read 3 paras from a guy who thought that implementing boss mechanics in an open world is the same as implementing them in an instanced one. You're beyond repair.

Vyraka

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Vyraka wrote: »

To say that I can't find the words is misleading. I can, but I think it would be a waste of my time. @CaptnChuck clearly has a narrow vision of certain people and what they have to say.
I believe @Xlys is right in Chuck needing to take a break.

@Vyraka

You should prob re-word your reply to "I didn't understand the context of @CaptnChuck 's replies, but I'm not going to admit it. Instead I'm going to say that its a waste of my time in order to avoid saying that I was wrong, and that I didn't know that he wasn't referring to PKing and was instead referring to a particular situation that circumvented the corruption system".

There you go, fixed it for you.

No, that isn't what I meant at all. But I do realize in your delusional world that you project upon others that is what I was thinking.

I was thinking more along the lines that you seem like an emotional teenager, and it would be wrong of me to continue to argue with someone who clearly has no sense of perspective other than his own.

CaptnChuck

Vyraka wrote: »

Like I said, I've played games solo before and been randomly targeted and killed via PVP. It stings! In the beginning, I probably reacted like you and cried about it, but as time went on, I grew up and learned how to deal with it.

I've learned to shrug it off, and have actually become friends who people who randomly killed me. Some did it just to see if they could, some were indiscriminate on who they killed, but once I made it clear that it didn't bother me, it stopped.

@Vyraka . Why are you lying to yourself? This was your reply to me. Its blatantly obvious that you missed my point entirely. Just like @Mojottv .

Idgaf about PKing. I was talking with respect to the situation that I explained above. You clearly, in your fiery rage for open world social blah blah, didn't bother understanding the context of my statements first.

So yea, you didn't comprehend shit.

Maybe you need to look in the mirror in order to see who the actual emo teen is.

Vyraka

Harassment is harassment. Whether it's PKing someone - or getting them down to a quarter of your health. I was relating to the harassment part. I understand that went over your head as many things tend to do.

CaptnChuck

Vyraka wrote: »

Harassment is harassment. Whether it's PKing someone - or getting them down to a quarter of your health. I was relating to the harassment part. I understand that went over your head as many things tend to do.

The amount of bs that comes from your mouth, @Vyraka , is truly ridiculous. That wouldn't be your reply to me if you actually understood the context of my statements. Cuz if you did, you would mention it at least once or even talk about it. But you didn't, you just talked about PKing. You might have 4 others to cover for you, but why lie? I'd always choose an emo teen over a liar anyday.

Now if you actually did say all that stupidity even after understanding the context of my statements, then you're beyond repair as well. There ain't no amount of reasoning that can get through to someone like that.

Might as well make it so that the players who are caught botting or gold selling are punished by players and not by Intrepid themselves. That should add to your vision of an open world game very well right?

I'm really glad that none of you: @Vyraka , @Mojottv , @Bricktop , @Tyrantor , @Xyls , are game designers. Cuz lord help the players if you were. You'll prob make the players create the code for the game as well.

Vyraka

I am both amused as well as put off by your assessment about me. You make so many assertions about me and my character, yet you don't know me at all. You keep projecting this smug, self-righteousness and alienating people by calling them names and insulting them.

I mean - hell, you lumped me into the category of people who played Lineage 2. I've never played that game. Yet, you made it sound so important - like it justified all your words. But who cares?

mcstackerson

@CaptnChuck I'm sorry if i've missed a post but from what i've read, the biggest thing that counters what you have talked about is the decrease in pvp performance a corrupted player suffers as they gain corruption. You also gain more corruption from killing players that are lower level then you. As you kill people, you will get weaker and if they are lower level then you, you will be getting weaker faster. I believe steven has even mentioned that it was designed like this to counter the behavior you are talking about.

In addition to this, we have recently learned about another mechanic where you will start to gain more corruption from kills based on the number of kills you have and this kill counter doesn't go away the same way as corruption.

Yes, you could have a pvp alt but you can't kill for long before you have to stop and work off your corruption/negative exp you gained. Even if this were to not deter a player from playing this way, it does decrease the amount of time they can spend doing it.

Bricktop

Yikes man. I hope you are alright.

CaptnChuck

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Say you're a lvl10 questing in the open world. You encounter a lvl20. He attacks you. You don't fight back as you know that you won't win. But guess what? He doesn't kill you either. He takes away half/more than half of your health and then stops fighting you. Now you can't quest anymore as your HP is so low. You'll be forced to use food, bandages etc. Once you're back to full, he does it again. How would you fix this issue with the current corruption system?

@mcstackerson

I was talking about this situation. You don't really gain any corruption here as you're not killing the player.

Tyrantor

CaptnChuck wrote: »

@Tyrantor

Sorry man, I'm not even gonna read your reply. Its prob just some weak insult or something.

I'm never going to read 3 paras from a guy who thought that implementing boss mechanics in an open world is the same as implementing them in an instanced one. You're beyond repair.

That's cool. That's a good way to avoid reading how you're wrong. If this is how you're going to treat my replies I'd suggest everyone ignores your posts in an effort to save brain cells for those deserving.

mcstackerson

CaptnChuck wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Say you're a lvl10 questing in the open world. You encounter a lvl20. He attacks you. You don't fight back as you know that you won't win. But guess what? He doesn't kill you either. He takes away half/more than half of your health and then stops fighting you. Now you can't quest anymore as your HP is so low. You'll be forced to use food, bandages etc. Once you're back to full, he does it again. How would you fix this issue with the current corruption system?

I was talking about this situation. You don't really gain any corruption here as you're not killing the player.

Oh, one of those classic vacuum examples where no one else ever comes around and sees a combatant that they can freely attack.

Beyond this being a waste of time if you are not getting anything from it, you are disincentivized from doing this because you are opening yourself up to being killed all because you want to mess with someone. Even if the death penalty is halved for being a combatant, it's still a penalty.

But yea, it's one of those things we will see how it plays out during testing.

bigepeen

mcstackerson wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Say you're a lvl10 questing in the open world. You encounter a lvl20. He attacks you. You don't fight back as you know that you won't win. But guess what? He doesn't kill you either. He takes away half/more than half of your health and then stops fighting you. Now you can't quest anymore as your HP is so low. You'll be forced to use food, bandages etc. Once you're back to full, he does it again. How would you fix this issue with the current corruption system?

I was talking about this situation. You don't really gain any corruption here as you're not killing the player.

Oh, one of those classic vacuum examples where no one else ever comes around and sees a combatant that they can freely attack.

Beyond this being a waste of time if you are not getting anything from it, you are disincentivized from doing this because you are opening yourself up to being killed all because you want to mess with someone. Even if the death penalty is halved for being a combatant, it's still a penalty.

But yea, it's one of those things we will see how it plays out during testing.

Yeah this is exactly the point I brought up as well. The person doing this is not doing it without risk. In fact, he won't even know if your guildies are on their way to PK him.

Xyls

I feel bad for this kid. Like how many people have to come along and tell him he is wrong before he takes a hint? Oh well, there are always a few in every gaming community. Just is life I guess.

ViBunja

CaptnChuck wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Say you're a lvl10 questing in the open world. You encounter a lvl20. He attacks you. You don't fight back as you know that you won't win. But guess what? He doesn't kill you either. He takes away half/more than half of your health and then stops fighting you. Now you can't quest anymore as your HP is so low. You'll be forced to use food, bandages etc. Once you're back to full, he does it again. How would you fix this issue with the current corruption system?

@mcstackerson

I was talking about this situation. You don't really gain any corruption here as you're not killing the player.

You can't see anyone else HP bar. So this is going to be hard to time.

LegendaryIII

This thread is marvelous...it has ganking and grief'g... I was afraid I'd have to wait 2 years to see some PvP in AoC.
( Poster vs Poster)

Chuck, you have a valid point: Intrepid should do whatever they can to limit or punish Grief'g.

As long as it does not interfere with core game mechanics.

Your example shouldn't be taken literally, but as a concept. Harassment without pre-determined consequence.

What I think many others are trying to say is, no matter what Intrepid does in the design process, some people are jerks, and clever ones at that. Sometimes players need to take matters into their own hands.

Not everything can be programmed out. Even if they fix the scenario you created, there will be a thousand other things people come up with.

Don't get me wrong, I'm with you. I have no tolerance for griefers, but I'm also with the PvP'rs that watched Felucca empty out when Trammel was born.

As a previous poster wrote, in Ultima Online, in order to make things more enjoyable for non-PvP'rs a safer land was created; Trammel. Guess what, players still found ways to grief others.

In an online game, even with no PvP, jerks will be jerks. At least in a PvP game, you can do something about it.

In your scenario: too weak to fight back, no guild, no friends, and no one coming to aid after asking on Gen chat. Leave, that's it. He's not trying to kill you. Leave. If he does kill you, leave. If he follows, Log out for 10 minutes.

Is this ideal? Is it fair even?..not yet...but one day, you're going to see that guy again. And you're going to ask your guild for help grief'g the hell out of him.
( not speaking of "you" in particular, just the player in the situation)

Myself, I never harass people, I'm not a hypocrite. I don't like it, I don't do it. But if someone puts out that Gen Chat Help request, I'm on my way. If I see someone grief'g others. If I can help, I will.

I expect helpful players ( many of which are the avid PvPrs) will outnumber griefers by a hundred to one.

Dealing with griefers is like bug-testing. There's only so much the 70? people at Intrepid can do. It's up to the player base, hundreds of thousands of people to do their part.

PS: I'm new here. I have no friends or guild yet... please don't grief me. Oops, battery's about to die, grief away I'm logging anyway. 😁

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